Author Topic: CAR v7.0 River II question  (Read 18930 times)

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 12:16:55 PM »
I'm going to side with Yellow on this issue and say it should at least have an FAQ entry or some form of clarification. If it needs to go to HiG to get an official statement, then so be it. The purpose of the CAR is to dissolve ambiguities in the rules, and this clearly is slightly ambiguous and, quite honestly, badly worded.

My problems with the rules, as written, is that it does not actually state a player may place a Follower on the just-placed tile. It implies that the players know the youngest player goes first, and then, from that, further implies that the youngest player therefore takes their turn even though they have no choice regarding which tile they must place (another aspect of this rule I dislike, though I know it is official). Perhaps it could be better worded with "The youngest player then begins their turn by placing the fork." This clarifies that the placement of the fork is the start of the game, with the youngest player beginning their turn. At this point, I would then agree that the optional placement of a Follower by the youngest player is implied.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 01:31:38 PM »
..If it needs to go to HiG to get an official statement, then so be it...

Sorry, but in the rule is a really clear answer. I won't like to ask HiG, because the answer is in the rule itself.

Here is the link to the German rule of HiG:
Graf, Koenig und Konsorten - page 4
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:35:24 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 03:19:08 PM »
Kettlefish, I just translated those sentences again and tried it in three different translators and I always come to the same conclusion: it is not clear enough. The translation reads: "The youngest player places the fork. Then, the players each pull a river tile and put it on the left or on the right of one of the river's branches.... Each player may place a Follower normally, if he wants."

I think the confusion here is how they establish that the "youngest player places the fork...then". This isn't the normal course of play in Carcassonne, where the start tile is followed by a random draw. With the River II, the start player does not get this random draw, and that is unusual. And so even though it does later say that each player can place a follower normally, it appears as if this rule only applies to the "then" statement, not the first statement regarding the youngest player. I honestly don't see how it hurts to put in a small clarification here just for those who may get confused.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 03:26:15 PM »
Quote
Jeder Spieler kann wie im normalen Spiel eine Figur setzen, wenn er will.

Each player may place a figure like in the regular game if he like.

"wie im normalen Spiel" - that means: use the rule of Carcassonne:
1. draw and place a tile (here one of the river tiles)
2. move wood (place a figure - example: follower)
3. score

"Jeder Spieler" - means: each player - the youngest player is also one of the players...

The youngest player draws the tile "fork" and places it and he may move wood (place a figure: example: follower as a farmer).

Only the player who places the tile with the volcano on it may not place a figure (follower) on it. He draws and places a second tile, may place a figure (follower) on it...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:32:48 PM by kettlefish »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 12:04:14 AM »
The concept of the rule has different articles:
- preparation
(The original starting tile is not used...The spring tile is placed in the middle of the table)
- game play
1. draw and place a tile (The youngest player...)
2. move wood (Each player may place a figure...)
3. score (here with the river tiles - no feature will finished for scoring)
----------------------
Perhaps we can put in the CAR some headlines.
Then we don't change the rule itself, but we have more clear statements...

In the CAR 7.02 (see page 60) is only the headline: Preparation
And the headline for "game play" is missing...

Offline obervet

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 05:52:14 AM »
I have to admit that I still don't see the confusion in the rules. That doesn't mean it's not confusing to some people, just that I myself can't come up with a way to interpret this set of rules in more than one way. Depending on your precise translation, there is a sentence that says that each player can place a follower as normal. The youngest player is, by definition, a player, so this sentence applies to that person. Placing a follower as normal means to use the standard rules of the game -- the follower is placed after placing a tile. You can argue about whether or not you like the order of the sentences, but the words are all there.

That said, I have tweaked the wording of the follower placement sentence to make it a little more clear, and I have added a footnote to the sentence about the fork placement to direct readers' attention to the fact that each player can place a follower after he or she places a river tile. I also like kettlefish's point that this whole section is missing a few headings, so I will add those as well.

Offline Scott

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Re: CAR v7.0 River II question
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2014, 07:05:18 AM »
I can see how this might be confusing to some people. I also see what kettlefish sees, that the rules contain the answer already. The CAR is a translation of the German rules; changing the text of the rules for "clarity" is part of the reason why the "official" English translations end up being different from the original German. A footnote is the best solution, which obervet has done.


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