Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: obervet on May 10, 2013, 07:27:24 PM
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Don't look now, but the newest versions of the Standard and Winter CARs are in the Downloads section for your reading enjoyment.
Standard v6.3: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=198 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=198)
Winter v1.1: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=199 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=199)
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Congratulations and thanks for all of the hard work that goes into this essential document!
CARC_Zoner
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obervet03,
thanks for the new CAR. :D
I like the new pictures in the rules - we have now a good grass green.
I am interested to "hear" what the people say about the "table".
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Awesome!
Need some assistance in knowing how to print it. Don't have a printer myself so must go to local library. Not planning on printing the whole document, just sections where I don't have the rules in English.
Assistance appreciated! :-)
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Don't look now, but the newest versions of the Standard and Winter CARs are in the Downloads section for your reading enjoyment.
Obervet03 - just fantastic!! Thank you for all you've put into this. The gratitude I feel is beyond words!
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The poor obervet03 - I gave him so much work because of all the new clarifications from HiG.
for example:
- dictionary
- the "table"
- the Robbers and the Messages
- the clear definition of "feature" (included in the dictionary)
The definition of "feature" has some new FAQ (especially for the phantom and the wagon)
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Big thanks for the done work! Especially thank you for the dates near new entries and clarifications: now it's easier to spot new ones for translating in my local CAR version.
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There is a footnote marked as unresolved under the section on Abbey & Mayor:
230 There is not an official clarification about the ability of the wagon to move directly from one
city to the other on the tile shown above, where the miniature roads (driveways?) cannot be occupied
by a follower.
Isn't this answered (implictly) by the previous footnote?
229 Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighboring] for the Wagon? If two
city walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another?
Answer: “Connected” means roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly “into” a
city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles). City walls that
touch at a point (such as at the corner of tiles) are not considered connected, so the wagon cannot
travel from one to the other. So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all. [Also
note – a road that touches a city at a point but not at a gate in the wall is not connected to the city.
Also, a road running through a city via a tunnel is not connected to the city. – Chris O.] (confirmed
5/2013)
If none of the current land tiles contain cities that the wagon can drive between, doesn't it stands to reason that these miniature roads do not connect the cities for the purposes of the wagon?
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There is a footnote marked as unresolved under the section on Abbey & Mayor:
230 There is not an official clarification about the ability of the wagon to move directly from one
city to the other on the tile shown above, where the miniature roads (driveways?) cannot be occupied
by a follower.
Isn't this answered (implictly) by the previous footnote?
229 Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighboring] for the Wagon? If two
city walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another?
Answer: “Connected” means roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly “into” a
city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles). City walls that
touch at a point (such as at the corner of tiles) are not considered connected, so the wagon cannot
travel from one to the other. So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all. [Also
note – a road that touches a city at a point but not at a gate in the wall is not connected to the city.
Also, a road running through a city via a tunnel is not connected to the city. – Chris O.] (confirmed
5/2013)
If none of the current land tiles contain cities that the wagon can drive between, doesn't it stands to reason that these miniature roads do not connect the cities for the purposes of the wagon?
S-CAR 6.3 - Footnote 229
This footnote belongs to a question from the Carcassonne-Forum
The picture of that example is on page 72.
S-CAR 6.3 - Fotnote 230
This is what I wrote to obervet03 about this question:
I haven't ask Georg Wild about the tile and the wagon.
But what I can say is, that if you like to drive from one finished city to the next city on that tile - that doesn't work, because the road is a feature and it is between the cities. And the wagon drives from one feature to the next one. In this case is the crossing a part of the road. And HiG said that this mini-little road is not for scoring because it's only a crossing. The wagon goes back to the supply from the player.
I know there is the tile from the first publishing of the expansion...but there is a road (a feature) and this road should be score 1 Point...
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First-off - Welcome to the CC Forum jamiehumphries89! Thanks for you contribution!
I would say the question is not implicitly answered by FN229 because in those cases the cities are connected by roads, that are connected to crossings.
There may be a consideration that those small roads (driveways? as referred to by obervet03) are coherent with the city feature. Because they can't be occupied separately they may be considered an extension of the city itself. So to drive onto them is to drive onto the city.
The FN230 simply clarifies that this hasn't been officially addressed by HiG or other authority.
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There is a footnote marked as unresolved under the section on Abbey & Mayor:
230 There is not an official clarification about the ability of the wagon to move directly from one
city to the other on the tile shown above, where the miniature roads (driveways?) cannot be occupied
by a follower.
Isn't this answered (implictly) by the previous footnote?
229 Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighboring] for the Wagon? If two
city walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another?
Answer: “Connected” means roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly “into” a
city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles). City walls that
touch at a point (such as at the corner of tiles) are not considered connected, so the wagon cannot
travel from one to the other. So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all. [Also
note – a road that touches a city at a point but not at a gate in the wall is not connected to the city.
Also, a road running through a city via a tunnel is not connected to the city. – Chris O.] (confirmed
5/2013)
If none of the current land tiles contain cities that the wagon can drive between, doesn't it stands to reason that these miniature roads do not connect the cities for the purposes of the wagon?
In my mind, the wagon should not be able to travel between the two cities. Wagons can really only travel on or to claimable features. Because the two little driveways (I'm sticking with that term) cannot be claimed by a follower, I don't feel that the wagon can use them for travelling.
However, as Carcking notes, this hasn't been explicitly stated by HiG. Years ago they commented that no cities connect to each other (FN229), which should indicate that the tile in FN 230 cannot serve as connectors (since that tile had been published already). Nonetheless, rulings can change over time. Again, as Carcking states, if the driveways are considered part of the city, the wagon would be allowed to hop over the crossing to the other city. Since the topic has been brought up on this forum relatively recently, I felt that it shouldn't be closed without revisiting it.
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Please look at my dictionary: (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=182.msg1735#msg1735)
A crossing is a part of a road.
And also I never saw a wagon (or a car) that could be hopping.
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Thank you for this awesome work. I like to play with a lot of expansions, and an updated CAR is an invaluable tool when doing so. I have one small comment, however. On page 123 it says that the Carcassonne Winter Edition is distributed only as a digital download. This is not 100% correct anymore. Both German and Scandinavian language editions (at least) was published as physical games in 2012. I don't know about the German version, but the Scandinavian version also includes the Gingerbread Man expansion (with the originally intended 6 tiles).
Since there is a separate CAR for the Winter Edition, maybe this can be omitted from the normal CAR.
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Thank you for this awesome work. I like to play with a lot of expansions, and an updated CAR is an invaluable tool when doing so. I have one small comment, however. On page 123 it says that the Carcassonne Winter Edition is distributed only as a digital download. This is not 100% correct anymore. Both German and Scandinavian language editions (at least) was published as physical games in 2012. I don't know about the German version, but the Scandinavian version also includes the Gingerbread Man expansion (with the originally intended 6 tiles).
Since there is a separate CAR for the Winter Edition, maybe this can be omitted from the normal CAR.
The download version from Dec 2011 was the original basic Carcassonne only in the winter as a download at CundCo. Now the download isn't there anymore. (This you can find in the S-CAR 6.3)
The published Carcassonne Winter-Edition has 12 new tiles with wild animals also all the tiles have a new design from a different graphic-artist. (This you can find in the W-CAR 1.1)
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In my mind, the wagon should not be able to travel between the two cities. Wagons can really only travel on or to claimable features. Because the two little driveways (I'm sticking with that term) cannot be claimed by a follower, I don't feel that the wagon can use them for travelling.
The little driveways are complicated: A wagon that can not drive a driveway would be strange.
If the driveways are part of the city, the wagon should be allowed to drive (drive!way) to both roads of the crossing, but not to the other city. The wagon also should be allowed to drive from both roads to both cities (and from road to road).
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Scott,
could you please adjust the links from the page "Home" to the new S-CAR 6.3 and W-CAR 1.1?
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Done.
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Great work continuing to keep the CAR updated. No easy task. Thanks to all who keep the document and the links to it checked and updated. Keep up the good work :c).
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Thank you for this awesome work. I like to play with a lot of expansions, and an updated CAR is an invaluable tool when doing so. I have one small comment, however. On page 123 it says that the Carcassonne Winter Edition is distributed only as a digital download. This is not 100% correct anymore. Both German and Scandinavian language editions (at least) was published as physical games in 2012. I don't know about the German version, but the Scandinavian version also includes the Gingerbread Man expansion (with the originally intended 6 tiles).
Since there is a separate CAR for the Winter Edition, maybe this can be omitted from the normal CAR.
The (digital) winter edition listed in the Standard CAR has different artwork than the version produced in a box, so that Winter Edition is only available as a download. I agree that the wording is unclear, though, and I'll tweak it for the next version of the CAR.
It's interesting that the Scandinavian version includes the Gingerbread Man with the base Winter Edition game; the German version (which is the one that I have) does not include the GB Man expansion.
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In my mind, the wagon should not be able to travel between the two cities. Wagons can really only travel on or to claimable features. Because the two little driveways (I'm sticking with that term) cannot be claimed by a follower, I don't feel that the wagon can use them for travelling.
The little driveways are complicated: A wagon that can not drive a driveway would be strange.
If the driveways are part of the city, the wagon should be allowed to drive (drive!way) to both roads of the crossing, but not to the other city. The wagon also should be allowed to drive from both roads to both cities (and from road to road).
Don't forget that (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong) I'm the one who coined the term "driveways," and that's not an official HiG term. They just as easily could be "footpaths," in which case it wouldn't make any sense for the wagon to travel on them. The German Inns & Cathedrals rules just say "No robbers can be placed here" without giving those bits a name, and RGG referred to them as "segments" without the word "road". (Of course, ZMG calls them "road segments," which further muddies the waters, although followers are still not allowed.)
To me, the driveways/paths are not part of the cities, since they're not inside the walls. I believe that they are simply a means of dividing fields and are not intended for any travel. But this is obviously one where kettlefish will have to get the official word from HiG. (And if HiG says travel is not allowed, I'll change the term to footpaths in the CAR to decrease confusion thematically.)
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CAR 6.3 - page 146 - example 3:
Each feature scores separately. GREEN and RED can choose which of their scoring figures
will score the points. The Robber can only receive points from a scoring figure that stands
on the same space as the Robber. In this case, the Robber can definitely receive points
from GREEN, because both scoring figures from GREEN are on the same space. The
Robber’s ability to rob points from RED will depend on which figure(s) RED chooses to
move. Since the Robber is on a space occupied by more than one scoring figure, and more
than one figure is scoring points, the Robber chooses which player he is “robbing” half the
points from.
Here is the text from my thread:
Robber and Messages - Examples (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=260.0)
Each feature scores separated. GREEN and RED can choose which of their scoring figures is scoring the points. The Robber can only receive points from a scoring figure that stands on the same space - In this case the Robber can receive points from GREEN because both scoring figures from GREEN are on the same space. The Robber is on a space occupied by more than one scoring figure and more than one figure is scoring points, the Robber chooses from which player he is “robbing” half the points. The Robber gets all the information from the ohter players GREEN and RED that it's needed for the best result to choose which points he like to rob.
The last sentense is important - it comes from Georg Wild and he likes to have the words included.
It was a part of our telephone call some days ago.
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Each feature scores separated. GREEN and RED can choose which of their scoring figures is scoring the points. The Robber can only receive points from a scoring figure that stands on the same space - In this case the Robber can receive points from GREEN because both scoring figures from GREEN are on the same space. The Robber is on a space occupied by more than one scoring figure and more than one figure is scoring points, the Robber chooses from which player he is “robbing” half the points. The Robber gets all the information from the ohter players GREEN and RED that it's needed for the best result to choose which points he like to rob.
The last sentense is important - it comes from Georg Wild and he likes to have the words included.
It was a part of our telephone call some days ago.
Oops, I must have lost that somewhere along the way. I'll get it into the next CAR version.
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CAR 6.3. - page 146 - example 4:
And that sentense is important for the example 4 too.
...The Robbers BLUE and Yellow get all the information from the ohter players GREEN and RED that it's needed for the best result to choose which points they like to rob.
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The special tile:
A crossing is a part from a road. The road ends in a crossing.
But there is only a crossing. And you can't score a road with no road-segments.
The crossing doesn't belongs to a city and also it doesn't belongs to a farm.
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Okay, all of the changes up to this point have been added to the upcoming version of the CAR. (This is more a note to myself, so I don't have to backtrack later, so don't get too excited about the upcoming version yet.)
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Excellent work. Thank you for your time and dedication
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Amazing, thank you very much for your dedication!!!
IOkay, all of the changes up to this point have been added to the upcoming version of the CAR. (This is more a note to myself, so I don't have to backtrack later, so don't get too excited about the upcoming version yet.)
If you are preparing a new version, you may want to add this observation here (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=261.msg1944#msg1944).
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Amazing, thank you very much for your dedication!!!
IOkay, all of the changes up to this point have been added to the upcoming version of the CAR. (This is more a note to myself, so I don't have to backtrack later, so don't get too excited about the upcoming version yet.)
If you are preparing a new version, you may want to add this observation here (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=261.msg1944#msg1944).
Footnote 328 in S-CAR v6.3 emphasizes that the conversion of a town to a castle and the "movement" of a follower from the town to the castle does not constitute a Move Wood action.
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Wow I've been stuck on the old forums and just checked these new ones out. What great progress guys!
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Wow I've been stuck on the old forums and just checked these new ones out. What great progress guys!
Hi Caryntjen,
I am glad to see you here at CarcC back again.
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I have just finished reading this novel. The amount of work that the authors have put in over the years is astounding.
Thanks guys.
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Just took a look at (and downloaded) the new CAR for the first time. It's fantastic! All those who worked on it are to be commended.
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I found an update that needs to be entered into the CAR. Basically it is in regard to the Windrose as a one of the starting tiles and also how to use it in MegaCarc.
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I found an update that needs to be entered into the CAR. Basically it is in regard to the Windrose as a one of the starting tiles and also how to use it in MegaCarc.
S-CAR v6.3 - page 172-173:
Mega-Carcassonne
The general order in which starting expansions should be placed would seem to be:
- The Wheel of Fate
- The Count of Carcassonne
- any River expansions
- The School
Obervet,
the Windrose (the orange one) is missing.
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S-CAR v6.3 - page 241:
starting tile
Some words are missing about the change of the starting tile when playing with Wind Roses.
S-CAR v6.3 - page 243:
wind rose
Some words are missing that the Wind Roses has also a starting tile.
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Hi CKorfmann,
did you find more things in the CAR what you are missing?
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No, but I only read over the new stuff. I might be able to proof it some more over the weekend.
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The next version for the CAR is coming out at the end of October after my meeting with HiG - Georg Wild.
I will go to Spiel 2013 at Essen and there I will get all the clarifications for the rules...
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I found an update that needs to be entered into the CAR. Basically it is in regard to the Windrose as a one of the starting tiles and also how to use it in MegaCarc.
S-CAR v6.3 - page 241:
starting tile
Some words are missing about the change of the starting tile when playing with Wind Roses.
S-CAR v6.3 - page 243:
wind rose
Some words are missing that the Wind Roses has also a starting tile.
Good catches. Pages 173, 241, and 243 in the CAR have been updated.
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The special tile:
A crossing is a part from a road. The road ends in a crossing.
But there is only a crossing. And you can't score a road with no road-segments.
The crossing doesn't belongs to a city and also it doesn't belongs to a farm.
So according to this, the small road segments aren't considered a road, and it's just intended to seperate farms, am I correct? Well, if so I think a different design (like a wodden fence passing between the farms) would have been much clearer.
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The special tile:
A crossing is a part from a road. The road ends in a crossing.
But there is only a crossing. And you can't score a road with no road-segments.
The crossing doesn't belongs to a city and also it doesn't belongs to a farm.
So according to this, the small road segments aren't considered a road, and it's just intended to seperate farms, am I correct? Well, if so I think a different design (like a wodden fence passing between the farms) would have been much clearer.
I don't think a fence would have made sense visually like a little piece of road does. A little snip of a road to make the tile aesthetically pleasing makes sense to me. It's about the same thing as the drawings of little barns and animals on the field segments. People have come up with fan rules for them, just not the little road snippets, at least that I'm aware of.
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The special tile:
A crossing is a part from a road. The road ends in a crossing.
But there is only a crossing. And you can't score a road with no road-segments.
The crossing doesn't belongs to a city and also it doesn't belongs to a farm.
So according to this, the small road segments aren't considered a road, and it's just intended to seperate farms, am I correct? Well, if so I think a different design (like a wodden fence passing between the farms) would have been much clearer.
I don't think a fence would have made sense visually like a little piece of road does. A little snip of a road to make the tile aesthetically pleasing makes sense to me. It's about the same thing as the drawings of little barns and animals on the field segments. People have come up with fan rules for them, just not the little road snippets, at least that I'm aware of.
Yeah I think you're right. I guess I said that without much thinking
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The crossing belongs to the road. A crossing ends a road or splitt roads in two different road segments.
Rule BigBox 1-3:
- a player may not place followers on these 2 segments
- this crossing separates the road into 2 segments
(a wagon is still a follower)
more about the wagon - please look here:
Clarification of rules - Wagon (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=214.0)
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Thanks kettlefish! I was confused on this one.
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thanks for the great work you are doing!
by the way, where is the differences between 6.2 and 6.3?
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thanks for the great work you are doing!
by the way, where is the differences between 6.2 and 6.3?
There are no new expansions or rules.
But we got many new clarifications for the rules - the footnotes.
for example:
- the "table" (S-CAR 6.3 page 20)
- Dictionary - World of the Game Carcassonne - German/English (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=182.0) (S-CAR 6.3 pages 245-251)
- Robber and Messages - Examples (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=260.0) (S-CAR 6.3 pages 144-147)
- Clarification of rules - Call with HiG - 14 01 2013 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=64.0)
- Some Questions from obervet03 and my Answers about the Minis (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=98.0)
The CAR 6.3 included all clarification of rules by telephone calls with HiG - Georg Wild - in January, February and May 2013.