Author Topic: JCloisterZone 2.7 (Read 31927 times)

frankdux · « **Reply #30 on:** August 10, 2014, 11:25:38 AM »

I uninstalled and reinstalled java and jcloisterzone along with restarting my computer before and after each. I also would wait about thirty seconds after i saved a game before i tried reloading it. So far this has worked the few times i've done it.

Paul · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2014, 04:57:00 AM »

Watching a video of JCZ in play, I found out you can highlight the farm fields to see where they connect.

I did not know that and this game others a HUGE advantage in the CC League.

Next JCZ release, could we have this with the option to be able to disable it?

mas9dj · « **Reply #32 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:11:53 AM »

Sorry Yellow, I didn't know you had no idea about that feature, you just need to press F. Also if you press X, you see last tiles placed. If you feel that was too big a disadvantage we can replay the game, I just want to be fair.

Paul · « **Reply #33 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:18:20 AM »

Quote from: mas9dj on August 12, 2014, 05:11:53 AM

Sorry Yellow, I didn't know you had no idea about that feature, you just need to press F. Also if you press X, you see last tiles placed. If you feel that was too big a disadvantage we can replay the game, I just want to be fair.

You are too kind. Thank you. But the favour would be too largely in my favour so we can't. A loss is a loss!

I might add there should be a hotkey legend on screen below the scoring/follower stack. That would help as well.

jungleboy · « **Reply #34 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:22:05 AM »

I didn't know that you could highlight the farms either. Good to know for the next game!

danisthirty · « **Reply #35 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:29:19 AM »

@Gerry - thanks for the tip with the config.jaml file!

@frankdux - I once managed to get a saved game to work. We didn't have to do anything special. Just closed JCZ, I loaded the game and my opponent connected back to me. Then we clicked Start and it worked! However, this was just once and on about a dozen occasions I've had games crash so we've followed the same procedure but it simply wouldn't load. I could load it, and my opponent could connect but the Start button didn't do anything. Maybe farin will know better, but 2.6 seemed a lot more stable than 2.7. We played the league using 2.6 which consisted of 42 games using the basic tiles and I only know of about 2 or 3 games that crashed and had to be restarted...

@Yellow - I knew that farm hints were there and even went so far as to mention them in the JCloisterZone FAQ. I also suggested that they should be avoided to keep things fair to everyone but I guess not everyone read this. Personally I don't think they make a massive difference, but they could be seen as an unfair advantage against people who don't know about them (hence why I requested not to use them - but I'm aware that there can also be genuine mistakes). I agree that there should be a checkbox on the pre-game screen which sets whether or not farm hints can be used, this seems like a neat solution to the problem.

mas9dj · « **Reply #36 on:** August 12, 2014, 05:41:35 AM »

Quote from: danisthirty on August 12, 2014, 05:29:19 AM

@Gerry - thanks for the tip with the config.jaml file!

@frankdux - I once managed to get a saved game to work. We didn't have to do anything special. Just closed JCZ, I loaded the game and my opponent connected back to me. Then we clicked Start and it worked! However, this was just once and on about a dozen occasions I've had games crash so we've followed the same procedure but it simply wouldn't load. I could load it, and my opponent could connect but the Start button didn't do anything. Maybe farin will know better, but 2.6 seemed a lot more stable than 2.7. We played the league using 2.6 which consisted of 42 games using the basic tiles and I only know of about 2 or 3 games that crashed and had to be restarted...

@Yellow - I knew that farm hints were there and even went so far as to mention them in the JCloisterZone FAQ. I also suggested that they should be avoided to keep things fair to everyone but I guess not everyone read this. Personally I don't think they make a massive difference, but they could be seen as an unfair advantage against people who don't know about them (hence why I requested not to use them - but I'm aware that there can also be genuine mistakes). I agree that there should be a checkbox on the pre-game screen which sets whether or not farm hints can be used, this seems like a neat solution to the problem.

I'm sorry I didn't read I should have avoided it. I won't use it onwards but I guess this became evident just because I recorded the game, so I can only trust in others not to use it in upcoming games since I don't see their screen. I don't think it makes a massive difference as Danisthirty states but it certainly helps making what would be 10 min thinking shrunk into 2 minutes or so. This game at least Yellow won all the fields (one was tie) so it effectively didn't influence. I don't really mind if others use it, I'm pretty used to having a sixth sense focused on the fields and tracking how they're developing. Still I think that feature would be a nice addition, just so everyone gets to play with the same tools. Anyway it was great fun and thanks for a great game Yellow, I wesh you the best of luck for the next matches you play!

rfielder · « **Reply #37 on:** August 12, 2014, 06:03:20 AM »

Wow - amazing!

JCloisterZone (JCZ) does a LOT to make you aware of your options! It is right in your face at the start, and available at any time.

The opening screen has most of the key combos. There are one or two of the newest not added, such as Ctrl-Z to undo a tile placement.

The menus within JCZ all show you what key to use.

Under Help, there is the Controls selection, which opens a window listing your options.

I am attaching screen shots for some of these. Click on the thumbnails to see a full size image.

When playing a game using software, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't take a few minutes and explore the software, see what it can do for you.

danisthirty · « **Reply #38 on:** August 12, 2014, 06:34:54 AM »

To assume that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage by not making yourself aware of all the little aids is to assume that everyone else is already using them! I prefer to point out that they’re there and then respectfully ask people not to use them. Obviously this relies on a certain amount of trust and respect between players but I think this is implicitly required when you play online anyway.

In an ideal world we’d all meet up at someone’s house and spend a day or two playing Carcassonne solidly to determine who should go home with the World Cup. Whilst I’d love to host something like this, it would be entirely impractical for a plethora of reasons (not least of all travel expenses for everyone else) so we’re playing online using JCloisterZone because it’s the best way of making it happen.

The fact that JCZ includes any aids at all (well, mostly just farm hints that I can think of) isn’t an argument for using them simply because they’re there. In my opinion, the playing experience should be the same for everyone if it’s going to be fair, and that experience should be as close as possible to playing Carcassonne in person at a top-level competition with independent score-keepers, judges, adjudicators or whoever else may be present at such events.

Paul · « **Reply #39 on:** August 12, 2014, 06:42:05 AM »

Hence posted on this thread. As suggestions for the next version of JCZ.

Recap:

- Option setting whether to allow certain aids or not before game starts (for all the players or not).

- A hotkey legend bottom right screen with shadowed hotkeys if disabled during the game.

Because the Cup is already underway, I wouldn't demand people stop using. It is after all a trust issue. I for one will not use it. Call me purist!

danisthirty · « **Reply #40 on:** August 12, 2014, 06:52:25 AM »

Quote from: Yellow on August 12, 2014, 06:42:05 AM

Because the Cup is already underway, I wouldn't demand people stop using. It is after all a trust issue. I for one will not use it. Call me purist!

Glad to hear it Yellow! I'm a purist too...

rfielder · « **Reply #41 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:00:10 AM »

Quote from: danisthirty on August 12, 2014, 06:34:54 AM

The fact that JCZ includes any aids at all (well, mostly just farm hints that I can think of) isn’t an argument for using them simply because they’re there.

Farm hints, count of tiles placed, undo last tile placed, possibly others - it sounds like some of the players here were not aware of these features.

Even simple things like using the right mouse button to rotate a tile, or the spacebar to skip placing a meeple, can make your gameplay just a little easier and funner (more fun?)

We have been asked not to use the farm hints. Fair enough, but the other features were not disallowed, and they can help. I really like knowing which tile was placed last, since you can not see the tile being placed like you can in a physical game. If you look away at the wrong time, you may never find what tile your opponent placed unless you have a photographic memory.

My point is that there was surprise at these features in earlier messages. Not just farm hints. Not knowing about the features the software offers can work against you.

rfielder · « **Reply #42 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:01:47 AM »

Quote from: Yellow on August 12, 2014, 06:42:05 AM

- A hotkey legend bottom right screen with shadowed hotkeys if disabled during the game.

That is available now, from the Help menu, select Controls.

Unfortunately, this was not updated for V2.7, so the Ctrl-Z Undo is not listed.

danisthirty · « **Reply #43 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:20:57 AM »

@rfielder - I guess some people are more curious than others by nature. I must admit I haven't delved into all of the menus within JCZ because I've never been all that intrigued by what they may contain. As such, I don't mind admitting that I didn't realise there was a tile list. But even if I had, I wouldn't have consulted it in games against human opponents as it would have spoilt my enjoyment of the game and my reliance on my own experience and knowledge of the tiles.

I have no problem whatsoever with the key to show you the last placed tile because the fact that it can be difficult to see where that tile is placed is introduced by virtue of the fact that you're playing online. In a normal game, it will always be obvious where the last tile went unless you've nodded off or not been concentrating, in which case it's your own fault for not paying attention anyway!

Likewise with the undo tile placement. When I play, my go isn't over until I OK the next player to take a tile. I might put my tile in one place to see how it looks, think about it, then move it somewhere else. The ability to do this isn't an advantage introduced by JCZ in the same way as farm hints are.

Hopefully the next version of JCZ will make all of this a moot point anyway as we'll be able to disable additional tools/ features/ aids before the game begins.

Carcking · « **Reply #44 on:** August 12, 2014, 07:37:53 AM »

I did not know the Farm hint was there either. I can think of a couple of occasions where it might have saved me. But I wasn't using them in any case.

It's my impression that we should be playing as though we were sitting at a table together, so we wouldn't have these advantages. A few of them have bugged me from the start because I am a purist. They are elements that you would not have if you were playing at a table. Two that I can think of: The tile count down, and the possible tile placement "hints" (the highlight box that shows you all the possible places to put the tile). Also the hints that tell you where you could place a Follower on the tile is more than you get at the table.

One advantage some of them have is you can't make a mistake in tile placement, follower placement or scoring. We've played games at the table before and never noticed until end game scoring that someone illegally placed a farmer in a field that was occupied way across on the other side of the board. Simple mistake that could have distasteful results in a competition. How many of us have discovered that a cloister was completed 4 rounds earlier and no one noticed...meanwhile the owner was playing a follower short. Ever finish the game and find an illegal tile placement? I have. So all of these issues are eliminated.

I understand some of them can't be helped and some of them are helpful for competition. If they are going to be inherent in playing JCZ and can't be avoided, then the main thing is we all play on the same playing field. They should be able to be turned on or off or at least drawn attention to so all players know they are available. (We're probably pushing issues on farin that he never anticipated being a problem. He likely didn't foresee this being used in competition.)