The River I & II

[plottygat]

Hello,
I used to play with The River I expansion, and recently also with The River II, placing the tiles connected by the sides with the river, so this can be completed, and no empty spaces are left.
Is this correct, according to official rules, or "The River" tiles can be connected also by other sides (fields, roads, cities)?
After reading S-CAR 7.4 my doubt remains.

Page 80 (The River II):
The river tiles can be placed as the player wishes, except for two exceptions: no 180° turns are allowed, and the two river branches must not be connected.

Pages 182-183 (The River I)
As usual, the players take turns placing tiles...  When the river is finished, the lake tile is placed, and the game continues.

Note 473
The rules from Big Box 5 and New Carcassonne (C II) explicitly state that players are to draw
River tiles until none are left and that newly-placed tiles must continue the illustration of the river
itself.

Thanks

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2961.0

[Paul]

A bit confused by your post, but then again, the rules in S-Car is also a bit confusing for those that never played the game. It's not very descriptive.

For river I (and III from Big Box):
  Place the Spring tile middle of the empty board.
  Shuffle the remainder except the Lake tile.
  Players take turn drawing a river tile and MUST continue building on the river from the Spring tile.
    Players can continue building on the river as long as they:
      Don't place two curved tiles going the same direction in a row (making a U-turn).
  When all the river tiles from the draw pile has been placed, you finish the river by placing the Lake tile.
  Game now continues as normal with the other tiles (base game with potentially added expansions).

For river II (with or without river I and/or III)
  The rules are pretty much the same with these exception:
  Remove the excess Spring and Lake tiles
  You start by placing the Spring tile and then the T-section river tile so that the single end of that T-tile connects to the Spring tile.
  Players place draws and place tiles to continue working on both river ends (players choice) as long as they do not connect both river ends with each other.

Hope this helps!

[danisthirty]

Thanks for the question and welcome to the forums!

Indeed. The river must be extended with each subsequent river tile e.g. river must be joined to river as well as observing the other rules stated.

Have fun!

[plottygat]

Thanks for you answers; actually, that's the way I play, too. But may I ask where you read the river MUST be continued in its flow at every tile placement? In the official rules I own (Carcassonne base, with the River I, and "Count, King and Robber" - Italian editions) I cannot find such a sentence.
Except for the forbidden U-turns, it seems two river tiles can be joined also by che city or road sides, leaving incomplete segments of the river.
According to SCAR, the clarification I'm lookig for is present only in Big Box 5 and Carcassone II; am I wrong?

Thanks

[dirk2112]

At first I thought you wanted to have the River I and II in the same game, but not connected.  We have tried that before and it took awhile for both rivers to be connected by regular tiles.

What you really want to do is treat each river tile like a regular tile and allow for the possibility of disconnected river areas everywhere.  (See picture).  If you do play this way, let us know how it goes and take a photo of the final board.

[Paul]

Thanks for you answers; actually, that's the way I play, too. But may I ask where you read the river MUST be continued in its flow at every tile placement? In the official rules I own (Carcassonne base, with the River I, and "Count, King and Robber" - Italian editions) I cannot find such a sentence.
Except for the forbidden U-turns, it seems two river tiles can be joined also by che city or road sides, leaving incomplete segments of the river.
According to SCAR, the clarification I'm lookig for is present only in Big Box 5 and Carcassone II; am I wrong?

Thanks

It may not be written in all the version of the rules clearly, but this is the case.
  Swedish rules reads clearly in one sentence "... and the river must always connect."

[plottygat]

At first I thought you wanted to have the River I and II in the same game, but not connected.

Sorry, the title of this thread is not so clear; I mentioned both River I and II because I have the same doubt on placement rules.

What you really want to do is treat each river tile like a regular tile and allow for the possibility of disconnected river areas everywhere.  (See picture).  If you do play this way, let us know how it goes and take a photo of the final board.

The picture you posted shows exactly what I was thinkig about, but my question is: "Is this positioning allowed or forbidden by the official rules?"

[plottygat]

  Swedish rules reads clearly in one sentence "... and the river must always connect."

Thank you! 

[Paul]

Our house version of play when using several rivers is to have to starter spring tiles facing one another in the opposite direction and force the river to be build outwards, away from one another.
  Sideturns are allowed but no turning back, i.e. placing two curved in one direction no matter how many straights are in between.

I believe I've posted this somewhere else on the forum. See if I can find it.

[philcampeau]

The picture you posted shows exactly what I was thinkig about, but my question is: "Is this positioning allowed or forbidden by the official rules?"

I don't believe the rules explicitly forbid it, but I think you're playing rules lawyer a little. The spirit of the River is clearly to have a continuous river.

The other problem that arises is that if you place River tiles the way they are in the picture, there is no legal way to place a tile on the side with the water. It doesn't make sense to play the game this way.


On a completely separate note, does anyone else feel that it's silly that the River II rules say the fork has to be the first tile after the initial spring? I usually just shuffle the three end pieces together, and shuffle the remaining river tiles separately. If the fork is the first tile you place, you're still basically left with one river, with a single tile jutting out in the middle. I prefer having three arms of varying lengths, personally.

[ny1050220]

On a completely separate note, does anyone else feel that it's silly that the River II rules say the fork has to be the first tile after the initial spring?

Well, I feel the same. I personally do not see problems having a fork more downstream, and this is our house rule.

[plottygat]

... The spirit of the River is clearly to have a continuous river.
...It doesn't make sense to play the game this way.

I totally agree with you, but sometimes I have to argue with other players who would like to place the river tiles in different ways, just on the basis it's not forbidden; should I change my friends? 
I was asking myself why this point was not so clear in the rules, but I've found in these days it could depend on an old or wrong translation of the italian edition. 
I've donwloaded the RGG rules, and I found it's explicitly suggested to " Place these tiles so that the river on each connects to the river on the previous tile."

On a completely separate note, does anyone else feel that it's silly that the River II rules say the fork has to be the first tile after the initial spring?

Yes, I think it's a useless restriction, too.

[danisthirty]

... The spirit of the River is clearly to have a continuous river.
...It doesn't make sense to play the game this way.

I totally agree with you, but sometimes I have to argue with other players who would like to place the river tiles in different ways, just on the basis it's not forbidden; should I change my friends? 

Yes, definitely.

[aenima]

In the official rules I own (Carcassonne base, with the River I, and "Count, King and Robber" - Italian editions)

are u italian? take a look to RCA (italian CAR version) in download section

[Just a Bill]

but sometimes I have to argue with other players who would like to place the river tiles in different ways, just on the basis it's not forbidden

Personally I think philcampeau's common-sense answer is great: "It doesn't make sense to play the game this way. " However, to satisfy your rules-lawyer friends, I think you can make a case that the river must be continued (water-to-water) so that you do not violate the no-U-turns rule. If you play two river tiles back-to-back without connecting the water portions, haven't you just introduced a U-turn into the overall structure of the river?

On a completely separate note, does anyone else feel that it's silly that the River II rules say the fork has to be the first tile after the initial spring?

Agreed. This has always felt disappointing.