Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: DrMeeple on December 30, 2020, 08:55:21 AM
-
Note by Meepledrone: This topic stems from a question about the answer to Question #12 in the Advent Calendar MMXX, where the rules for the Markets of Leipzig where misinterpreted for the Wainwrights quarter bonus.
See original post here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4911.msg73156#msg73156 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4911.msg73156#msg73156)
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
There is a phrase in WICA that explains it but it is poorly explained since it can give rise to two interpretations in the context of the previous sentence ... But I no longer say anything because I'm tired ...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
This is a tricky thing in the rules: >:D
If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Check the last sentence in first bullet after the example where a meeple is sent to Leipzig...
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig)
-
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
There is a phrase in WICA that explains it but it is poorly explained since it can give rise to two interpretations in the context of the previous sentence ... But I no longer say anything because I'm tired ...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The original wording and arrangement of the rules is so lame! If you think that a clarifications would be needed, please let me know.
-
Wainwrights quarter is overpowered ;D ;D ;D I thought that case only applied when you had two meeples. :P
Thanks for the info Meepledrone!
-
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
This is a tricky thing in the rules: >:D
If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Check the last sentence in first bullet after the example where a meeple is sent to Leipzig...
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig)
Don't be cheat Meepledrone. The context says
‘If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road [4]. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.’
Therefore if you write one sentence followed by the other in that context you are talking about the case of more than 1 meeple on a road and that you place one in Leipzig. If what you want to say is that THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS and not only with the example of more than one meeple, you have to put the phrase apart at another point to differentiate it. Not point and followed ... Because it can lead to misinterpretation...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
This is a tricky thing in the rules: >:D
If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Check the last sentence in first bullet after the example where a meeple is sent to Leipzig...
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig)
Don't be cheat Meepledrone. The context says
‘If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road [4]. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.’
Therefore if you write one sentence followed by the other in that context you are talking about the case of more than 1 meeple on a road and that you place one in Leipzig. If what you want to say is that THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS and not only with the example of more than one meeple, you have to put the phrase apart at another point to differentiate it. Not point and followed ... Because it can lead to misinterpretation...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well, I'm not making up anything here... Check the analysis by people before me. I give you this is a particular tricky point that caught my eye when I read this post a couple of years ago:
[...]
Schickst du dabei den Meeple ins Wagner-Viertel bekommst du gleich die Extra-Punkte (siehe unten).
If you send the meeple to the Wagonmaker district you get the bonus points (see below).
This does not say "you get the bonus points if you still have a thief on the road," just that you simply get the bonus points. So it would seem that when you have only one thief on a completed road, and that thief is in the majority, and you send him to the Wagonmaker district, you score zero baseline points for the road (per one rule) but you still get 1 bonus point for each segment since you went to Wagonmaker (per this other rule).
Personal commentary: This inconsistency is more jarring to me than the other ones, probably because it is so subtle and easy to miss. And it leads to another question...
[...]
The analysis delves into all the inconsistencies and open issues based on the German rules. I agree with Just a Bill here in that you would get the bonus even if you don't score points for the road.
So this paragraph would mean: if you send a meeple to Leipzig from a road with more than one meeple, you do score the road. No matter the case, you will get the Wainwrights quarter bonus is you meeple is sent to that quarter.
In order to connect the immediate bonus to having several meeples on the road when sending one to Leipzig, they should have emphasized some how:
In this case, if you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
or:
If you then send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
-
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
This is a tricky thing in the rules: >:D
If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Check the last sentence in first bullet after the example where a meeple is sent to Leipzig...
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig)
Don't be cheat Meepledrone. The context says
‘If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road [4]. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.’
Therefore if you write one sentence followed by the other in that context you are talking about the case of more than 1 meeple on a road and that you place one in Leipzig. If what you want to say is that THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS and not only with the example of more than one meeple, you have to put the phrase apart at another point to differentiate it. Not point and followed ... Because it can lead to misinterpretation...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well, I'm not making up anything here... Check the analysis by people before me. I give you this is a particular tricky point that caught my eye when I read this post a couple of years ago:
[...]
Schickst du dabei den Meeple ins Wagner-Viertel bekommst du gleich die Extra-Punkte (siehe unten).
If you send the meeple to the Wagonmaker district you get the bonus points (see below).
This does not say "you get the bonus points if you still have a thief on the road," just that you simply get the bonus points. So it would seem that when you have only one thief on a completed road, and that thief is in the majority, and you send him to the Wagonmaker district, you score zero baseline points for the road (per one rule) but you still get 1 bonus point for each segment since you went to Wagonmaker (per this other rule).
Personal commentary: This inconsistency is more jarring to me than the other ones, probably because it is so subtle and easy to miss. And it leads to another question...
[...]
The analysis delves into all the inconsistencies and open issues based on the German rules. I agree with Just a Bill here in that you would get the bonus even if you don't score points for the road.
So this paragraph would mean: if you send a meeple to Leipzig from a road with more than one meeple, you do score the road. No matter the case, you will get the Wainwrights quarter bonus is you meeple is sent to that quarter.
In order to connect the immediate bonus to having several meeples on the road when sending one to Leipzig, they should have emphasized some how:
In this case, if you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
or:
If you then send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Obviously it can be specified with a connector to refer to the previous sentence but if you place it followed it can be interpreted that it refers to the context of the previous sentences. All the paragraph except the last sentence refers to a feature with two meeples from the same player... In order not to create confusion, it is logical to put that sentence aside in another paragraph. Surely so many of those who have answered the quiz would have interpreted it correctly ... (for those who don’t read the footnotes like me xd)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Wainwrights quarter is overpowered ;D ;D ;D I thought that case only applied when you had two meeples. :P
Thanks for the info Meepledrone!
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
This is a tricky thing in the rules: >:D
If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Check the last sentence in first bullet after the example where a meeple is sent to Leipzig...
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig)
Don't be cheat Meepledrone. The context says
‘If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road [4]. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.’
Therefore if you write one sentence followed by the other in that context you are talking about the case of more than 1 meeple on a road and that you place one in Leipzig. If what you want to say is that THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS and not only with the example of more than one meeple, you have to put the phrase apart at another point to differentiate it. Not point and followed ... Because it can lead to misinterpretation...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I think that both of you are right. I think the impression made in me by that post (the one I referenced above) made me interpret the rules in a wrong way. Thank you for pointing out the issue. :(y) :(y)
As per the arrangement of the text, the sentence I quoted has to be considered only if you have more than one meeple on a road and you send one of them to Leipzig.
I will have to reevaluate Q12 accordingly. Sorry for the inconvenience.
I don't think the rules in WICA are misinterpreted. The original rules are indeed poorly written, but I think your first interpretation was correct.
At page 3 of the original rules is written in the section 'Scoring during the game':
For each road which is scored with your majority you get 1 bonus point per tile.
Bei jeder Straßenwertung, bei der du die Mehrheit besitzt, bekommst du 1 Punkt zusätzlich für jedes Straßenplättchen.
The majority is calculated before meeples are sent to Leipzig, so it would be logical that you also get the points immediately after sending your one and only meeple to the Wainwrights quarter. Majority is majority, whether you had one or more meeples on the road before sending one to Leipzig.
-
Wainwrights quarter is overpowered ;D ;D ;D I thought that case only applied when you had two meeples. :P
Thanks for the info Meepledrone!
In Q12
* The Wainwrights quarter bonus, since Red can score the bonus right away in the same turn he sends a meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. So Red will score 5 points for this bonus (5 tiles x 1 point per tile).
why? :'(
This is a tricky thing in the rules: >:D
If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
Check the last sentence in first bullet after the example where a meeple is sent to Leipzig...
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Markets_of_Leipzig)
Don't be cheat Meepledrone. The context says
‘If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road [4]. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.’
Therefore if you write one sentence followed by the other in that context you are talking about the case of more than 1 meeple on a road and that you place one in Leipzig. If what you want to say is that THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS and not only with the example of more than one meeple, you have to put the phrase apart at another point to differentiate it. Not point and followed ... Because it can lead to misinterpretation...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I think that both of you are right. I think the impression made in me by that post (the one I referenced above) made me interpret the rules in a wrong way. Thank you for pointing out the issue. :(y) :(y)
As per the arrangement of the text, the sentence I quoted has to be considered only if you have more than one meeple on a road and you send one of them to Leipzig.
I will have to reevaluate Q12 accordingly. Sorry for the inconvenience.
I don't think the rules in WICA are misinterpreted. The original rules are indeed poorly written, but I think your first interpretation was correct.
At page 3 of the original rules is written in the section 'Scoring during the game':
For each road which is scored with your majority you get 1 bonus point per tile.
Bei jeder Straßenwertung, bei der du die Mehrheit besitzt, bekommst du 1 Punkt zusätzlich für jedes Straßenplättchen.
The majority is calculated before meeples are sent to Leipzig, so it would be logical that you also get the points immediately after sending your one and only meeple to the Wainwrights quarter. Majority is majority, whether you had one or more meeples on the road before sending one to Leipzig.
The issue does not affect the scoring of the bonus or the majority. It has to do its applicability to the road you renounced to score because you sent your only meeple on it to the Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. Check the sentence in red at the end of this paragraph:
German rules:
* Hast du mehrere Meeple auf einer Straße, darfst du nur einen davon nach Leipzig schicken. Für den anderen Meeple darfst du aber die Punkte für die Straße nehmen. Schickst du dabei den Meeple ins Wagner-Viertel bekommst du gleich die Extra-Punkte (siehe unten).
English rules:
If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send only ONE of them to Leipzig. For the other(s) you may, however, score the points for the road. If you send a meeple into the wainwrights quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
I was assuming this sentenced applied always. But DrMeeple and carlium wisely pointed out this is only applies to the context of the bullet, that is, when you have several meeples on one road and send one to the Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig.
This means two things:
* General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig
* One exception: when you send a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter from a road with more than one meeple. In this case you can score the road and receive bonus on the same turn you send your meeple to Leipzig.
-
This means two things:
* General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig
* One exception: when you send a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter from a road with more than one meeple. In this case you can score the road and receive bonus on the same turn you send your meeple to Leipzig.
That means that if that red meeple would has been a blue meeple and it would has been send to Bookbinders (not Wainwrights; imagine that Bookbinders is occupied only by Yellow), and the monastery would has been scored after road (in the same turn), blue should receive 9 points (not 9 points and 4 points)?
Also, I do not understand why if a Leipzig road is completed with 2 red meeples, 1 of them is send to Wainwrights, and Red would score the road and receive the Wainwrights bonus. After scoring (with Red' majority) the Leipzig road applying the Wainwrights, in the same turn, Red scores another road, but Red does not receive the Wainwrights bonus for this road. What is the rationality?
-
This means two things:
* General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig
* One exception: when you send a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter from a road with more than one meeple. In this case you can score the road and receive bonus on the same turn you send your meeple to Leipzig.
That means that if that red meeple would has been a blue meeple and it would has been send to Bookbinders (not Wainwrights; imagine that Bookbinders is occupied only by Yellow), and the monastery would has been scored after road (in the same turn), blue should receive 9 points (not 9 points and 4 points)?
Correct. The issue here is that the rules are written in a way that the Waiwrights quarter bonus is an exception to the general rule. that is, it is the only bonus that can be scored immediately as indicated explicitly. In my previous undestanding of the rules all the bonuses could be applied immediately.
Also, I do not understand why if a Leipzig road is completed with 2 red meeples, 1 of them is send to Wainwrights, and Red would score the road and receive the Wainwrights bonus. After scoring (with Red' majority) the Leipzig road applying the Wainwrights, in the same turn, Red scores another road, but Red does not receive the Wainwrights bonus for this road. What is the rationality?
When I realized my mistake, I started to analyzed all the implications and I ended up wondering the same thing. The only explanation I find for it is that HiG decided to compensate the player for the extra work required to add more than one meeple to the same road.
Nevertheless, I'm open to discussing the interpretation of the paragraph that is giving us all such a headache:
* If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.
In the current interpretation, the stress is on the word "immediately." If HiG use this word in particular for this case, one would infer this is an exception for the Wainwrights quarter for roads with multiple meeples from a player.
The rules do not contain a sentence or an example confirming that the bonus is applied in the same turn the meeple is sent to Leipzig. However they focus on the aforementioned special case.
In my mind this is analogous to other actions that may provide a reward in the future: You place the builder now so you can get a double turn in the future; you place a meeple in Carcassonne now so you can redeploy it later... In this case, you place a meeple in Leipzig so you can receive a bonus later (with one exception). I general, there are very few mechanics in Carcassonne that provide an instant reward.
I can understand that maybe they didn't analyze the rules deeply enough to see that you could complete a road to Leipzig and additional features and that you could send meeples to Leipzig affecting them in the same turn.
So far, the only case considered for the rules is the one affecting the road connected to Leipzig with multiple meeples from the player sending one of them to Leipzig but they ignore what would happen if you close more than one road for starters.
So, as I said, the rules feel rather incomplete and we have only a few hints of what HiG had in their heads when they wrote down the rules.
If you have a different angle when reading this paragraph, please let me know.
-
In the meantime, I put together the following example covering some of all these oddities if this interpretation sticks:
(https://i.imgur.com/AgIz7JC.jpg)
The tile just placed by Red completes the following features:
* A road network connected to Leipzig that is occupied by 1 normal meeple and 1 phantom from each player Blue, Red and Yellow.
* Another road occupied by the Yellow Ringmaster
* A monastery occupied by Blue
* A city occupied by Red and Blue
The three players share the majority and have more than one meeple on the road to Leipzig. This means they all can score for the road while sending one meeple to Leipzig. Let's assume that each player wants to send their phantom to a different quarter Leipzig:
* The Blue Phantom goes to the Bookbinders quarter
* The Red Phantom goes to the Coiners quarter
* The Yellow phantom goes to the Wainwrights quarter
Let's analyze what happens for each feature:
1) The road network
The three players Blue, Red and Yellow score for the road, since all of them share the majority and each of them has two meeples on it.
Additionally, Yellow[/b] will receive the Wainwrights quarter bonus for the road immediately (that is, this turn), since the player sent their phantom to the Wainwrights quarter.
On the other hand, Blue and Red will not receive the Wainwrights quarter bonus for this road.
2) The road with the Yellow Ringmaster
This road is also completed with the same tile placement.
Note: This road is also connected to Leipzig, so Yellow could send their ringmaster to Leipzig. But this is not the case.
The use of "immediately" in the special case, would make us assume that it does not apply to all other cases.
If so, Yellow would score for this road but the player would not receive the Wainwrights quarter bonus for the Yellow Phantom just sent to the Wainwrights quarter.
3) The monastery
The tile placement completed a monastery occupied by Blue. Applying the same logic as in 2), Blue would score for the monastery but would not receive the Bookbinders quarter bonus for the Blue Phantom just sent to the Bookbinders quarter.
However, Red would receive the Bookbinders quarter bonus for the Red Meeple already placed in the Bookbinders quarter.
4) The city
The tile placement completed a city occupied by Blue and Red. Applying the same logic as in 2), both players would score for the city but only Blue would receive the Coiners quarter bonus for the Blue Meeple already placed in the Coiners quarter.
Red would not receive the Coiners quarter bonus for the Red Phantom just sent to the Coiners quarter.
-
This means two things:
* General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig
* One exception: when you send a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter from a road with more than one meeple. In this case you can score the road and receive bonus on the same turn you send your meeple to Leipzig.
I totally agree with the reinterpretation about roads, choosing to leave it when we have only one meeple means abandoning its points.
But I'm not sure about the general rule. I think every bonuses could be applied on the same turn.
Example:
Yellow place a tile that completes a city with yellow meeple and a pennant and a road with one yellow highwayman.
Yellow choses to score the road first. Performing step 3b of the order of play (see WICA), he decides to send his highwayman to the coiners quarter. He gets no points for the road.
Then step 3b is repeated for every feature left to score, so now comes the time to score the city, with a pennant. Yellow has a meeple in the coiners quarter, so he gets Leipzig bonus for the pennant.
Conclusion:
As step 3b is repeated for every completed feature, coiners and bookbinders bonus may apply for every feature scored after a meeple has been sent to its quarter, even if that's on the same turn.
But of course, in previous example, if yellow choses to score the city first, he doesn't get the coiners bonus as he doesn't have a meeple in that quarter when the city is scored.
So the rule is easy if we do not forget that step 3b is repeated for every completed feature:
Any of Leipzig's bonus is applicable if we have a meeple in the corresponding quarter when a feature is scored (meaning during that feature's specific 3b step).
The issue here is that the rules are written in a way that the Waiwrights quarter bonus is an exception to the general rule. that is, it is the only bonus that can be scored immediately as indicated explicitly. In my previous undestanding of the rules all the bonuses could be applied immediately.
[...]
In this case, you place a meeple in Leipzig so you can receive a bonus later (with one exception). I general, there are very few mechanics in Carcassonne that provide an instant reward
I do not understand it as the exception is "can be scored during this turn". The exception is that roads are the only feature that can be scored at the same time as sending a meeple to Leipzig (during the same 3b step). If they didn't add this clarification, we'd have no way to know how to score that double meeple and one sent to wainwright quarter case.
So they clarified "If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately."
Immediately meaning "for the feature that is currently being scored".
So the exception is not in the way to apply the rules (that would bring confusion and scoring errors in any game), it is on the fact that roads are the only features that can be scored at the same time as sending a meeple to Leipzig so it required a clarification.
With this understanding, meeples sent to bookbinders or coiners quarters can not score the bonnus immediately, as we're scoring a road, not a city or monastery.
But they can be scored when scoring the next features, if applicable, during the next 3b step, even if that's during the same turn.
Again, the rule is easy if we do not forget that step 3b is repeated for every completed feature:
Any of Leipzig's bonus is applicable if we have a meeple in the corresponding quarter when a feature is scored (meaning during that feature's specific 3b step).
Precision about wainwright quarter, if a meeple has been sent there WHILE scoring a road that still contains one of your meeples, the bonnus is applicable immediately. (immediately meaning for the feature that's currently being scored/during that feature's specific 3b step).
I can understand that maybe they didn't analyze the rules deeply enough to see that you could complete a road to Leipzig and additional features and that you could send meeples to Leipzig affecting them in the same turn.
That's for sure!
-
'This means two things:
* General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig
* One exception: when you send a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter from a road with more than one meeple. In this case you can score the road and receive bonus on the same turn you send your meeple to Leipzig.'
Glad to read how It grows contradiction only with one paragraph...
I thought that the paragraph of wainwrights quarter was a mistake of wica.. If the paragraph is a portion of official rules then the doubts are over... The context is on two meeples case, end of discussion. I don't understand why all this complication and confusion... O.o
'General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig'
No sense if you apply the bonuses on the same turn... You must to sacrifice something... If not, no difference about playing with leipzig or not...
Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital
-
'This means two things:
* General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig
* One exception: when you send a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter from a road with more than one meeple. In this case you can score the road and receive bonus on the same turn you send your meeple to Leipzig.'
Glad to read how It grows contradiction only with one paragraph...
If you see a contradiction, please indicate where you see it to help the discussion.
I thought that the paragraph of wainwrights quarter was a mistake of wica.. If the paragraph is a portion of official rules then the doubts are over... The context is on two meeples case, end of discussion. I don't understand why all this complication and confusion... O.o
The paragraph was okay in WICA. My understanding of the rules was wrong as I explained.
'General rule: the bonuses provided by Leipzig are not applicable the same turn you send a meeple to Leipzig'
No sense if you apply the bonuses on the same turn... You must to sacrifice something... If not, no difference about playing with leipzig or not...
Enviado desde St. Meeple Hospital
This is my understanding too (as you can see in my previous example). Getting a bonus and applying it right away is not an usual mechanic in Carcassonne. So I think the rules just provide an exception for roads with more than one meeple (for the Wainwrights bonus) as a rewarding for the effort.
But here we are discussing all points of view, since each of us may detect subtleties that may corroborate or dismiss each other's interpretation.
Corinthiens13 has a different point of view:
a) The bonus can be applied in the same turn you get it
b) The order of scoring may affect which scorings would benefit from the bonus.
If we apply this approach, I'd say that we should apply the bonus to all the features. Let me explain... As we have seen in Question #17 of the Advent Quiz, evaluating features may be decoupled from their scoring (due to castle dependencies, robbers, messages...) So, IMHO, the decision about sending a meeple to Leipzig should be taken before scoring and act properly to avoid any conflicts.
For me, this possibility of conflicts would another hint why the bonus should not be applied in the same turn, there would be no issues... Although it would make the scoring a bit awkward, as shown in my previous example.
Please share your thought! ;D
-
'If you see a contradiction, please indicate where you see it to help the discussion.'
I mean that if the WICA paragraph is translated from the HiG official rules, it literally surprises me to see how the interpretation has been complicated, falling into contradictions when taking a sentence out of context from a paragraph. I don't mean that the paragraph itself is contradictory but when interpreting it.
-
Well, as this is an issue happening when playing the markets of Leipzig with base game only (completing a road leading to Leipzig, a city with pennant and a monastery during the same turn), could HiG answer this question?
This would solve all of our questions about this 8)
-
Contradiction for me, for example, is to read a very specific example in a paragraph and point and followed they tell you something specific and take the last sentence applying it to all cases. More than a contradiction it would be more correct to say a fallacy.
Although the sentence out of context seems to be somewhat general, the context helps to interpret it correctly
-
Anyway, I take the opportunity to say that the C2 expansions suck >:D ;D every time I see it clearer ...
-
'If you see a contradiction, please indicate where you see it to help the discussion.'
I mean that if the WICA paragraph is translated from the HiG official rules, it literally surprises me to see how the interpretation has been complicated, falling into contradictions when taking a sentence out of context from a paragraph. I don't mean that the paragraph itself is contradictory but when interpreting it.
The paragraph was taken from the rules in English published by HiG. As I mentioned my interpretation was wrong, after reading Just a Bill's post where he analyzed the sentence by sentence out of their context. I just got taken away by his comments... that's all.
The rules say what they say. And so far, it is all we have until we get any clarification from HiG. So we just want to see if we can fill any gaps with a collaborative discussion. If this is not possible, at least we can spot any potential areas where the rules may need clarification. This would help us ask the right questions, I think
-
Well, as this is an issue happening when playing the markets of Leipzig with base game only (completing a road leading to Leipzig, a city with pennant and a monastery during the same turn), could HiG answer this question?
This would solve all of our questions about this 8)
I agree. HiG wouldn't have any excuse to not clarify this issue. 8)
-
Anyway, I take the opportunity to say that the C2 expansions suck >:D ;D every time I see it clearer ...
What if, all of a sudden, you come across those tiles converted to C1? >:D
-
Anyway, I take the opportunity to say that the C2 expansions suck >:D ;D every time I see it clearer ...
What if, all of a sudden, you come across those tiles converted to C1? >:D
Then everything will be fine and it will be a welcome expansion >:D
-
The rules say what they say. And so far, it is all we have until we get any clarification from HiG. So we just want to see if we can fill any gaps with a collaborative discussion. If this is not possible, at least we can spot any potential areas where the rules may need clarification. This would help us ask the right questions, I think
I think we should just show HiG this picture:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mylY9vtQAj57TrP0KN7LccMb3aVPT0gJ_D7yOTjZa6uXDvCR7aHBub4hIYBY59HvggNuq8ICUD1gvZE3lL_SHbu4NgbAQ3U94XKRLvXMj4HxMJcd14CMtLPabFpNeFutV7J3tW5VmMSXPMY6q9-vXfx5xJSPjJKvAbjhZX3BSjJNxtlx2vofEIlnFIzrL7xdr?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none)
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to score the road first, then the city and monastery.
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the wainwrights quarter? Do he get any bonus points for the road? (no, obviously)
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the coiners quarter? Do he get any additional points for the city pennant?
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the bookbinders quarter? Do he get any bonus points for the closed monastery?
As well as this picture:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mJsV8-pDAJSZzWxEP0U7jojuVUt4p-ub83-46SIAdpJa3C4THe5gYQJUtRHj4q8G_1KHAzt6vZxRvbmejOLwRKnVQ7wSmn2yE7kbSJRoVmIKi0guPPCtCIdO94WKi6ooPef4PsN2lg6gpuGA4ND6EBgvTKP0AuupFUucIAXYgKwZ1B9VgODrH_aqE0rXSROal?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none)
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to send one meeple to the wainwright quarter, red doesn't. So one red and one yellow meeples are left on the road. Do yellow:
- Still have the majority? If so, red doesn't score any points, yellow gets 9 points for the road, and 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
- Loses the majority, if so, both red and yellow get 9 points for the road, and yellow gets an additional 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
I think those questions would solve every possible misinterpretations ;)
-
The rules say what they say. And so far, it is all we have until we get any clarification from HiG. So we just want to see if we can fill any gaps with a collaborative discussion. If this is not possible, at least we can spot any potential areas where the rules may need clarification. This would help us ask the right questions, I think
I think we should just show HiG this picture:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mylY9vtQAj57TrP0KN7LccMb3aVPT0gJ_D7yOTjZa6uXDvCR7aHBub4hIYBY59HvggNuq8ICUD1gvZE3lL_SHbu4NgbAQ3U94XKRLvXMj4HxMJcd14CMtLPabFpNeFutV7J3tW5VmMSXPMY6q9-vXfx5xJSPjJKvAbjhZX3BSjJNxtlx2vofEIlnFIzrL7xdr?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none)
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to score the road first, then the city and monastery.
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the wainwrights quarter? Does he get any bonus points for the road? (no, obviously)
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the coiners quarter? Does he get any additional points for the city pennant?
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the bookbinders quarter? Does he get any bonus points for the closed monastery?
As well as this picture:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mJsV8-pDAJSZzWxEP0U7jojuVUt4p-ub83-46SIAdpJa3C4THe5gYQJUtRHj4q8G_1KHAzt6vZxRvbmejOLwRKnVQ7wSmn2yE7kbSJRoVmIKi0guPPCtCIdO94WKi6ooPef4PsN2lg6gpuGA4ND6EBgvTKP0AuupFUucIAXYgKwZ1B9VgODrH_aqE0rXSROal?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none)
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to send one meeple to the wainwright quarter, red doesn't. So one red and one yellow meeple are left on the road. Do yellow:
- Still have the majority? If so, red doesn't score any points, yellow gets 9 points for the road, and 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
- Loses the majority, if so, both red and yellow get 9 points for the road, and yellow gets an additional 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
I think those questions would solve every possible misinterpretations ;)
'Take note:
-If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send one of them to Leipzig. With the other(s) you can, however, score the points for the road [4]. If you send a meeple into the Wainwrights Quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately. [5] [6]
-If more than one player has the majority, each one can decide on his own whether he wants to send the meeple to Leipzig or if he takes the points.
-The road on the double Land tiles counts merely as one road in a road scoring.'
'If more than one player has the majority, each one can decide on his own whether he wants to send the meeple to Leipzig or if he takes the points.'
It's important to read the context of the paragraph. It refers to BEFORE sending meeples to Leipzig. Therefore evaluating majorities after sending meeple to Leipzig doesn't make any sense.
Mayorities are evaluated BEFORE according to the official phrase.
The red in the second example doesn't score anything. The yellow having a majority and 2 meeples can apply the exception of scoring the bonus and the feature in the same turn if it's placed in the Wainwrights Quarter.
Therefore, linking the context means that if you take that meeple to another quarter, you don't get any bonuses that turn. That ties in with your first example where you close a city and close a monastery. In principle you renounce your scoring to take your meeple to Leipzig, therefore the official rules in the case of having only one meeple on the way doesn't apply bonuses in the same turn. In subsequent scorings yes, you can claim the bonus.
-
Little rewording of the second example after Dr Meeple's comment.
I think we should just show HiG this picture:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mylY9vtQAj57TrP0KN7LccMb3aVPT0gJ_D7yOTjZa6uXDvCR7aHBub4hIYBY59HvggNuq8ICUD1gvZE3lL_SHbu4NgbAQ3U94XKRLvXMj4HxMJcd14CMtLPabFpNeFutV7J3tW5VmMSXPMY6q9-vXfx5xJSPjJKvAbjhZX3BSjJNxtlx2vofEIlnFIzrL7xdr?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none)
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to score the road first, then the city and monastery.
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the wainwrights quarter? Do he get any bonus points for the road? (no, obviously)
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the coiners quarter? Do he get any additional points for the city pennant?
- What happens if yellow sends his meeple to the bookbinders quarter? Do he get any bonus points for the closed monastery?
As well as this picture:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mJsV8-pDAJSZzWxEP0U7jojuVUt4p-ub83-46SIAdpJa3C4THe5gYQJUtRHj4q8G_1KHAzt6vZxRvbmejOLwRKnVQ7wSmn2yE7kbSJRoVmIKi0guPPCtCIdO94WKi6ooPef4PsN2lg6gpuGA4ND6EBgvTKP0AuupFUucIAXYgKwZ1B9VgODrH_aqE0rXSROal?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none)
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to send one meeple to the wainwright quarter, red doesn't. So one red and one yellow meeples are left on the road. Which is true:
- Yellow is the only one who scores the road, as he had the majority before sending a meeple to Leipzig? If so, red doesn't score any points, yellow gets 9 points for the road, and 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
- The majority is reevaluated. Since both red and yellow have only one meeple on the road, they both get 9 points for the road, and yellow gets an additional 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
I think those questions would solve every possible misinterpretations ;)
PS: Dr Meeple, I know we do already have some interpretations we all agree on for some of those questions (mainly the second example), but a firm answer from HiG to confirm them would be welcome, to be sure we do not misinterpret anything.
-
And ask:
It is yellow's turn, who placed the last of his city tile and decides to send one meeple to the wainwright quarter, red doesn't. So one red and one yellow meeples are left on the road. Which is true:
- Yellow is the only one who scores the road, as he had the majority before sending a meeple to Leipzig? If so, red doesn't score any points, yellow gets 9 points for the road, and 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
- The majority is reevaluated. Since both red and yellow have only one meeple on the road, they both get 9 points for the road, and yellow gets an additional 9 points for the wainwright quarter bonus.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/toB3AnUDkqE3GENKx0/giphy.gif)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk