WikiCarpedia: request corrections or submit suggestions here

[Bumsakalaka]

Huston we have a problem.
It's called The Land Surveyours ;-)

[Meepledrone]

Huston we have a problem.
It's called The Land Surveyours ;-)

Hi mutated stano.lacko!!!

This is not a problem. This is just more work for the weekend!

I was trying to classify the different Scoring Tiles to see where to add them in the Scoring During the Game Test page. It is wonderful HiG didn't even give hint on how these tiles would interact with Inns and Cathedrals, for starters.

This is my first try at grouping them:

A) Majority modifiers: (if included, we should include also the deployment of meeples from the City of Carcassonne and hills)
   - Citizens’ Jury (1): Majority modifier for cities (all meeples share the majority)

B) Tile count modifiers: (tiles are not considered for scoring - before any modifier)
   - Bad Neighborhood (1): Tile count decreased for cities (semicircular segments not considered in scoring)

C) Core feature scoring modified:
   - Increased/decreased conditionally points per tile:
      - Peasant Uprising (1): Points per tile decreased for roads (-1 point per tile with farmhouse)
      - Highway (1): Fixed points for roads (=5 points)
      - Hermit Monastery (1): Points per tile decreased for monasteries (-1 point per city tile with city segments)
      - Pilgrimage Route (1): Points per tile increased for monasteries (+1 point per tile with road segment)
   - Unconditional modifications:
      - Siege (1): adds extra point to coats of arms (+1 point per coat of arms)
      - Street Fair (1): adds extra scoring to road per tile (+1 point per road tile - they use "x2" instead of "[road tile] +1" to avoid confusion IMHO)

D) Feature bonus: (Applied after modifiers)
      - Wealth (2): adds bonus to city and monastery (+3 points)
      - Poverty (2): adds penalty to city and road (-3 points)

So I would include all these as part of feature scoring right after the basic points for the tiles:
- Group A) only when other majority items are considered (hills, deployment from carcassonne,...)
- Group B) affects not only the basic scoring but may affect the number of tiles considered by other modifiers and bonuses based on the number of tiles if we strictly consider the rules: "During the scoring of a city, these completing city segments are not part of the scoring and do not get you any points."
- Group C) may be added after the basic points per tile
    - For roads: Segments on German cathedrals, bridges, tunnels, labyrinths and ferries should be added before these scoring tiles
- Group D) may be added as feature bonus (they are applied after the core feature scoring is done)

Any comments?

Cheers!

[Bumsakalaka]

I joined X-Men so I had to choose new name so I used the name which I use on czech CarcassonneForum.cz.

So Idea looks nice.

Anyway, how about that Castle? Why not to put it like Teacher?

[Vital Pluymers]

Hi!

Before reading the previous post, I was preparing a new update for the new Scoring During the Game test:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

I have included the following:
* Conditional visibility of empty steps in a phase if no scoring actions have to be shown.
* Changed step headers from grey to the phase color to reduce the number of grey bars.
* Updated the wording in the headers of steps 2A, 2B-1 and 2B-2.
* Added restrictions related to negative points in actions subtracting points

Thank you for all your suggestions and comments on the forum and on Slack.

Cheers!

Such an impressive document! Amazing work! :-)

I have a few remarks we should discuss:

1)
As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.
The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.
One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.

2)
i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.
ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.
   

3) Watchtowers with meeple symbol vs Big Top. Both mechanics give points for the number of meeples on the tile itself and the eight spaces around. What is the logic of including meeples on castles for the scoring of the Big Top, but excluding them for the scoring of the Watchtower? I think for the sake of consistency, it should be scored the same.

4) The last step of the feature scoring for roads is: Markets of Leipzig: Player sending their only meeple on the road to Leipzig -> (x0) points
If the multiplication times 0 is part of the feature scoring, it would imply that robbers, the teacher or the neighbouring castle(s) would also receive 0 points in case the player having the majority would decide to send his only meeple to Leipzig. I don't think this would be correct.

5) In the C2 rules for Robbers is written: If playing with other expansions, please take the following notes into consideration: The Messengers: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile.
i) Is this a seperate scoring event? In that case, the Messengers should be added after the Robber scoring topic.
ii) Or is it just part of the scoring round in which the robber is stealing the points? Then nothing should be changed in the scoring file as Messengers are added after every scoring round.
I think whatever is the outcome, this remark with regards to Robbers should be added to the playing rules of the Messenger expansion.

Curious for your thoughts :-)

[Meepledrone]

Hi!

Before reading the previous post, I was preparing a new update for the new Scoring During the Game test:

http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_per_Feature_-_Test

I have included the following:
* Conditional visibility of empty steps in a phase if no scoring actions have to be shown.
* Changed step headers from grey to the phase color to reduce the number of grey bars.
* Updated the wording in the headers of steps 2A, 2B-1 and 2B-2.
* Added restrictions related to negative points in actions subtracting points

Thank you for all your suggestions and comments on the forum and on Slack.

Cheers!

Such an impressive document! Amazing work! :-)

Thanks! Hope it is useful and can be useful to both newbies and experts in the subject matter. 

I have a few remarks we should discuss:

1)
As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.
The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.
One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.

I pondered all this, and my take was the following:
* Watchtowers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple meeples on the watchtower tile, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Markets of Leipzig: I used Robber because, even if there are multiple meeples in Leipzig, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Shepherd: I used Robber+ because the scoring of various shepherds in the same field is triggered together. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.
* Darmstadt church bonus: I used Robber+ because several meeples may share the majority and get the bonus. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.

I agree with you that the case of the shepherd and the Darmstadt bonus is a case on the edge.

Do you agree?

2)
i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.
ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.

My take was the following following the lead of the previous block:
* Ringmasters: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple ringmasters on the same feature, each meeple will score the bonus individually and the scoring may differ, as you say, depending on their location. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Tollkeepers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple tollhouses at the ends of a road, each tollhouse will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.

In general, as you can see, bonus points scored individually are tagged with Robber, and those involving several figures in the same scoring are tagged with Robber+.

One of the things in my to do list was to include notes about how bonus points are scored. So far I only indicated in some of them the bonus affects a "Player" meeting certain condition, not "Players". I have to review the wording to make this consistent and add some comments.

What do you think?

3) Watchtowers with meeple symbol vs Big Top. Both mechanics give points for the number of meeples on the tile itself and the eight spaces around. What is the logic of including meeples on castles for the scoring of the Big Top, but excluding them for the scoring of the Watchtower? I think for the sake of consistency, it should be scored the same.

Ha ha ha! You finally noticed. When updating some weeks ago the rules about the interaction of castles and the big top, I realized this would be the same case for watchtowers. But of course, the Watchtowers rules do not cover anything but the base game. A shame!

I agree with you, but was keeping that debate for a little later. Now it is on the table.

I sent some question to Cundco about Exp. 10 on December 11th, before I realized about this, and I'm still waiting for an answer. I have prepared a longer list since and even I was thinking of opening a thread with open question so HiG ends up hating us deeply. We can start just collecting all the footnotes in WICA with padlock icons to start with.

4) The last step of the feature scoring for roads is: Markets of Leipzig: Player sending their only meeple on the road to Leipzig -> (x0) points
If the multiplication times 0 is part of the feature scoring, it would imply that robbers, the teacher or the neighbouring castle(s) would also receive 0 points in case the player having the majority would decide to send his only meeple to Leipzig. I don't think this would be correct.

I agree that we have a problem with castles.

Let's see each case separately when you complete a road and decide to send your only meeple on it to Leipzig:
* Robbers: Since you score 0 points, a robber next to any of your scoring figures would steal nothing and would stay where it is.
* Teacher: Since you score 0 points, the teacher won't get any points either. As per the rules: "When the next feature is scored, the player with the teacher scores the same number of points."
* Castles: You score 0 points but a castle nearby could score the full points for this road, since castles score the points the feature is worth, not the points scored by the players with the majority, if any (the feature could be unoccupied and even so the castle would score for it).

I assume, I will have to figure out how to express this in a simple way since we have to dissociate:
* The points tallied by the feature, that is, the points the feature is worth
* The points scored by the player(s) with the majority (if any), that is, the points scored on the scoreboard

A mayor in a city with no coats of arms or in a castle shows this. The mayor gets 0 points but a nearby castle could score the full points for the feature.

So this means that on the table we will have to indicate:
* Points tallied for the feature --> These would go to a castle nearby too
* Points scored for the feature (if there are any special cases: mayors, meeple sent to Leipzig) --> These would go to the scoreboard, a robber, the teacher

Any comments?

5) In the C2 rules for Robbers is written: If playing with other expansions, please take the following notes into consideration: The Messengers: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile.
i) Is this a seperate scoring event? In that case, the Messengers should be added after the Robber scoring topic.
ii) Or is it just part of the scoring round in which the robber is stealing the points? Then nothing should be changed in the scoring file as Messengers are added after every scoring round.
I think whatever is the outcome, this remark with regards to Robbers should be added to the playing rules of the Messenger expansion.

The points stolen by a robber are circumscribed to the round of scoring the scoring is happening. So we are talking about option ii). That's why the message is the last action every round of scoring. You check the final location of your scoring figures if any of them moved during that round of scoring.

However, a message can generate new points and a robber can steal points from the outcome and a new message can be triggered as well, so you may enter an loop here where new rounds of scoring are generated on the fly.

Regarding additional clarifications to WICA, you have this separation of concerns:
* Mini #2 - Messages describes rounds of scoring and actions not triggering one.
   - Section on rounds of scoring: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

* Mini #6 - Robbers indicate that styling points may trigger a message if combined with Mini #2 - Messages 
   - Clarification after the red box: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers#Final_scoring

What would you like to add? Add to the section on rounds of scoring that any scoring moving forward on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received) may trigger a message?

Curious for your thoughts :-)

As a side note, revisiting the decoupling of tallied points and scored points is happening in parallel to the analysis of The Land Surveyors PnP expansion, where the tallied points for a feature is decoupled from its fundamental structure:
* German cathedrals played a bit with the concept with the independent road segments on the German cathedral vs. the tile count
* The Land Surveyors adds new mechanisms where external factors to the board alter the the standard rules for tallying points for a feature:
   - The rules for determining majority are warped
   - Tiles are ignored in the scoring
   - Points per tile are increased/decreased conditionally
   - Points per tile are increased inconditionally
   - Bonus points are added to the regular tallied points

Roads and cities require some tinkering. Monasteries are more straight forward.

For the sake of completeness, additional info should be added to the Scoring Test page, such as, actions associated to scoring that may affect majority, such as, hills or deploying meeples from Carcassonne.

I was thinking about adding some actions related to final scoring:
   - King and Robber tile assignment
   - Collecting gold ingots
   - Collecting trade goods

All your feedback is most welcome 

Thank you so much!

[Meepledrone]

I joined X-Men so I had to choose new name so I used the name which I use on czech CarcassonneForum.cz.

So Idea looks nice.

Anyway, how about that Castle? Why not to put it like Teacher?

Hello, X-Men buddy!

I've been thinking about the best way to do it all week long.... If you read section 4) of the previous post, you'll find more issues and reasons to arrange something i this line.

Users of the page will need a Carcassonne compass (or GPS) and a map to find their way in there. 

[cicerunner]

A couple of minor edits ...
_____
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Under_the_Big_Top
(typo) existing text: "Therefore those meeples will not be elegible for big top points."
suggested edit - change "elegible" to "eligible"

_____
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor
(formatting) existing text:
"corner of each tile is a field: you may place a barn here"

(formatting) existing text:
"corners of both bottom tiles have city segments: you may not place a barn"

suggested edit - in both cases the word "you" is in bold - remove it and apply it to "may" and "may not" instead, OR if consistency requires it, extend the bold formatting to include these words

[Bumsakalaka]

I tried a version of your suggestion. Please check it out.

Perfect. Now is abosultely clear what means Dispatch of message. And it also doesn't enlarge height of page, becaouse message tile is bigger tnat current text.

I'm glad, the approach to your suggestion was satisfactory for you. 

Oooooh! Some questions next... Great! 

Now my suggestion:
I don't understand "Feature scoring -> Castle token image Teacher image" when I click to Castle or Techer link is to file.
- maybe it will be better to describe as dispatch message after fairy bonus, or others where allowed to dispatch message.

Each image in MediaWiki is clickable by default and usually takes you to the page describing the image file. Don't let this mislead you.

The images on the "Feature scoring" banner only emphasize that those are the points scored for the feature itself and that...
- A robber may steal after scoring the core points corresponding to that feature (each bonus is scored and stolen individually as well)
- A castle may score if triggered by this feature.
- A player may score as teacher bonus if this is feature scored first after getting the teacher.

All this effort is only to indicate that bonus points corresponding to figures (or tokens) triggered by the feature, and won't be visible to a castle or to the teacher.

Let me know if this clarifies the whole thing or you have any suggestion about it.

I thing castle have to be more described. When you finish city, there is no informations about multiplying scoring points by neighbour castle.

Castles do not multiply the points by themselves. It all depends on who the castle and who own the feature triggering the castle scoring:
* If the owner are the same, you will see it as a scoring multiplier
* If the owner is different, you will see someone taking advance of your effort to close the feature.

So the scoring of a castle does not include any of these appreciations as they are more related to the strategy during a game than to the scoring itself: you can use castles to boost your scoring or to steal points from others. 

Please let me know your thoughts.

Ok. I thing that it can be described like bonus scoring (prolog) for Watchtowers or bonus scoring (epilog) for Fairy, Ringmaster etc.

Maybe it's not bonus scoring but Triggering scoring like in city
Four sections:
1. Prolog (watchtowers)
2. Feature scoring - all City, Cathar, Mage, Witch, Little Buildings, German Castles, Bathhouse, Darmstadium (it's enought)
3. Triggering scoring - new section
- Castle
 - here can be described like if castle is yours, double points
- Teacher (described in epilog)
- Robber
4. Epilog

Than that symbols on beginning not be necessary and will be understable rules for scoring. And not be forgotten ;-)

New suggection:
Why not to add symbol of robber to points table column for example:
Fairy bonus - 3 points for feature -> Triggering Robber

I used my buildin x-rays and I found it ;-)

[NGC 54]

Done for Under the Big Top.

[Meepledrone]

_____
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor
(formatting) existing text:
"corner of each tile is a field: you may place a barn here"

(formatting) existing text:
"corners of both bottom tiles have city segments: you may not place a barn"

suggested edit - in both cases the word "you" is in bold - remove it and apply it to "may" and "may not" instead, OR if consistency requires it, extend the bold formatting to include these words

Text changed to bold too although the original rules in English didn't include that. 

Thanks of the suggestions.

[Meepledrone]

By the way, nobody has suggested anything about including the abbot scoring when it is placed as an abbot and removed from a special monastery... 

[DrMeeple]

By the way, nobody has suggested anything about including the abbot scoring when it is placed as an abbot and removed from a special monastery... 

In the WICA’s abbot page?? Isn’t there yet?? 

[Vital Pluymers]

What do you think?

I don't know :-)

I think that the definitions here are quite important. We have two different scoring timings:
* Six different scoring rounds (Messages): Step 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 3 and 4.
* An enormous number of scoring events (Robbers).

In Scoring Round Step 3 "Scoring a feature" there are defined different scoring events which have consequences for Robbers:
Bonus scoring (prolog), Feature Scoring and Bonus Scoring (epilog).

The rules for Robbers state that you can choose which counting figure to steal from when multiple features are completed and scored in the same scoring round, for instance a simultanously closed road and city.

On the other hand, the rules also state that we should score every feature completely (prolog bonuses, feature scoring, epilog bonuses) step by step before scoring the next feature.

Just to be sure that I interpret this correctly:
Example: A player completes simultanously feature A (majority  ), feature B ( ) and feature C (majority  on Watchtower). My Robber is next to the scoring meeples of all three lucky ones.

The active player decides in which order the features are scored. According to the Robber rules, he now has to inform me in which order he will score all features, so that I can decide which scoring figure I want to rob.

(i) The active player decides to score respectively feature A, feature B, watchtower feature C, and finally feature C. What are my options as a robber?
Can I rob feature A ( ) OR feature B ( ) OR the watchtower of feature C ( )?
Is this correct?

(ii) The active player decides to score respectively feature A, watchtower feature C, feature C and finally feature B.
Can I still choose between the three options above?
I would guess yes, since all scoring meeples would move for the first time in scoring round 3.

I have a few remarks we should discuss:

1)
As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.
The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.
One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.

I pondered all this, and my take was the following:
* Watchtowers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple meeples on the watchtower tile, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Markets of Leipzig: I used Robber because, even if there are multiple meeples in Leipzig, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Shepherd: I used Robber+ because the scoring of various shepherds in the same field is triggered together. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.
* Darmstadt church bonus: I used Robber+ because several meeples may share the majority and get the bonus. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.

I agree with you that the case of the shepherd and the Darmstadt bonus is a case on the edge.

Do you agree?

2)
i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.
ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.

My take was the following following the lead of the previous block:
* Ringmasters: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple ringmasters on the same feature, each meeple will score the bonus individually and the scoring may differ, as you say, depending on their location. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Tollkeepers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple tollhouses at the ends of a road, each tollhouse will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.

In general, as you can see, bonus points scored individually are tagged with Robber, and those involving several figures in the same scoring are tagged with Robber+.

I can understand your point, but still... Who decides in which order the bonuses are scored? Also the active player?
I don't think this is officially defined in the rules, is it?

For the first four scoring events, it seems less important as the end result will be the same anyhow.
But for the Ringmasters and Tollkeepers points, it is important.
(i) Is the active player deciding about the order of scoring the Ringmasters or Tollkeepers?
(ii) Or can the Robber just decide which of the Ringmasters / Tollkeepers he will rob as they are all scored in the same scoring event? This would be in line with his right to choose for features scored simultanously.
I would go for option (ii) and then I still believe that there should be a Robber+ symbol :-)

Analogously, the same would be valid for Watchtowers and Markets of Leipzig.

[Vital Pluymers]

3) Watchtowers with meeple symbol vs Big Top. Both mechanics give points for the number of meeples on the tile itself and the eight spaces around. What is the logic of including meeples on castles for the scoring of the Big Top, but excluding them for the scoring of the Watchtower? I think for the sake of consistency, it should be scored the same.

Ha ha ha! You finally noticed. When updating some weeks ago the rules about the interaction of castles and the big top, I realized this would be the same case for watchtowers. But of course, the Watchtowers rules do not cover anything but the base game. A shame!

I agree with you, but was keeping that debate for a little later. Now it is on the table.

I sent some question to Cundco about Exp. 10 on December 11th, before I realized about this, and I'm still waiting for an answer. I have prepared a longer list since and even I was thinking of opening a thread with open question so HiG ends up hating us deeply. We can start just collecting all the footnotes in WICA with padlock icons to start with.

That seems like a great idea :-)
But it will be useless, I'm afraid. I am sure that HiG hates us already for years...
 

4) The last step of the feature scoring for roads is: Markets of Leipzig: Player sending their only meeple on the road to Leipzig -> (x0) points
If the multiplication times 0 is part of the feature scoring, it would imply that robbers, the teacher or the neighbouring castle(s) would also receive 0 points in case the player having the majority would decide to send his only meeple to Leipzig. I don't think this would be correct.

I agree that we have a problem with castles.

Let's see each case separately when you complete a road and decide to send your only meeple on it to Leipzig:
* Robbers: Since you score 0 points, a robber next to any of your scoring figures would steal nothing and would stay where it is.
* Teacher: Since you score 0 points, the teacher won't get any points either. As per the rules: "When the next feature is scored, the player with the teacher scores the same number of points."
* Castles: You score 0 points but a castle nearby could score the full points for this road, since castles score the points the feature is worth, not the points scored by the players with the majority, if any (the feature could be unoccupied and even so the castle would score for it).

I assume, I will have to figure out how to express this in a simple way since we have to dissociate:
* The points tallied by the feature, that is, the points the feature is worth
* The points scored by the player(s) with the majority (if any), that is, the points scored on the scoreboard

A mayor in a city with no coats of arms or in a castle shows this. The mayor gets 0 points but a nearby castle could score the full points for the feature.

So this means that on the table we will have to indicate:
* Points tallied for the feature --> These would go to a castle nearby too
* Points scored for the feature (if there are any special cases: mayors, meeple sent to Leipzig) --> These would go to the scoreboard, a robber, the teacher

Any comments?

I agree with everything you wrote above. There is no issue with the Robbers and the Teacher.
But for Castles, we need that split-up you proposed.

5) In the C2 rules for Robbers is written: If playing with other expansions, please take the following notes into consideration: The Messengers: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile.
i) Is this a seperate scoring event? In that case, the Messengers should be added after the Robber scoring topic.
ii) Or is it just part of the scoring round in which the robber is stealing the points? Then nothing should be changed in the scoring file as Messengers are added after every scoring round.
I think whatever is the outcome, this remark with regards to Robbers should be added to the playing rules of the Messenger expansion.

The points stolen by a robber are circumscribed to the round of scoring the scoring is happening. So we are talking about option ii). That's why the message is the last action every round of scoring. You check the final location of your scoring figures if any of them moved during that round of scoring.

However, a message can generate new points and a robber can steal points from the outcome and a new message can be triggered as well, so you may enter an loop here where new rounds of scoring are generated on the fly.

Regarding additional clarifications to WICA, you have this separation of concerns:
* Mini #2 - Messages describes rounds of scoring and actions not triggering one.
   - Section on rounds of scoring: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Rounds_of_Scoring

* Mini #6 - Robbers indicate that styling points may trigger a message if combined with Mini #2 - Messages 
   - Clarification after the red box: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers#Final_scoring

What would you like to add? Add to the section on rounds of scoring that any scoring moving forward on the scoreboard (including stolen points or payments received) may trigger a message?

Indeed, I would add this to the section on rounds of scoring in the rules for the Messages and in the WICA.

Anyhow, if the Robbers are always "awarded" for their work taking into account all the scoring activities in one scoring round, ánd messages are delivered just after the end of a scoring round, then what is the added value of the sentence "[/b]: If either your messenger or your scoring meeple lands on a dark space as a result of your robber stealing points from another player, draw a message tile.[/b] ?

[Meepledrone]

What do you think?

I don't know :-)

Fair enough 

I think that the definitions here are quite important. We have two different scoring timings:
* Six different scoring rounds (Messages): Step 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 3 and 4.
* An enormous number of scoring events (Robbers).

In Scoring Round Step 3 "Scoring a feature" there are defined different scoring events which have consequences for Robbers:
Bonus scoring (prolog), Feature Scoring and Bonus Scoring (epilog).

Yes, any feature scored in Step 3B may trigger several scoring events we can group in three blocks:
* Bonus prolog: with several scoring events scored affecting one or more figures usually individually (each tagged with Robber). The exception: the Gingerbread Man for cities (tagged with Robber+), that may trigger a scoring event for multiple players occupying the same city.
* Feature scoring: one single scoring event that may affect one or more players (tagged with Robber+). Features normally occupied by one meeple are by default tagged with Robber, but when using expansions that allow multiple meeples sharing them they are also tagged with Robber+.
* Bonus epilog: with several scoring events scored affecting one or more figures usually individually (each tagged with Robber). The exception: the Darmstadt church bonus (tagged with Robber+), that may trigger a scoring event for multiple players sharing the majority in the vicinity of a Darmstadt church.

The rules for Robbers state that you can choose which counting figure to steal from when multiple features are completed and scored in the same scoring round, for instance a simultanously closed road and city.

On the other hand, the rules also state that we should score every feature completely (prolog bonuses, feature scoring, epilog bonuses) step by step before scoring the next feature.

We have several cases when placing a tile that completes several features:
A) With base game or expansions that do not care about the scoring order:
   - Not specified in the rules: Assuming each player decides the order even when scoring features for various players.
B) Case A) plus robbers (scoring order matters when stealing points):
   - Specified in the clarifications: Each player decides the order even when scoring features for various players.
C) Cases A) or B) plus watchtowers (scoring order matters for watchtower scoring for neighboring meeples):
   - Not specified in the rules: Assuming each player decides the order even when scoring features for various players so far but the active player could have a say the same as with bathhouses.
D) Cases A) or B) or C) plus bathhouses (scoring order matters when sending meeples to bathhouses):
   - Specified in the rules: The active player decides the order even when scoring features for various players.

Special cases (for the sake of completes):
   - Teacher: the player with the teacher picks one feature from the completed ones. No scoring order is required.
   - Castles: castles score after the feature triggering their scoring. No scoring order is required for the other completed features.
      - Multiple completed features (including other castles) may trigger a castle scoring (all of them overlapping the castle fief), but the castle may only score for one.
      - If two or more castles overlap each other's castle fief, they all will be scored together. 

So trying to provide the simplest rules possible for the scoring order, we could conclude:
* Each player decides the order even when scoring features for various players.
* The active player decides the order even when scoring features for various players if some arbitration is required.

Just to be sure that I interpret this correctly:
Example: A player completes simultanously feature A (majority  ), feature B ( ) and feature C (majority  on Watchtower). My Robber is next to the scoring meeples of all three lucky ones.

The active player decides in which order the features are scored. According to the Robber rules, he now has to inform me in which order he will score all features, so that I can decide which scoring figure I want to rob.

As I mentioned earlier, it is the best option we have when the scoring can be affected by the order features are scored:
* Single-meeple scorings with bathhouses (official ruling)
* The watchtower scoring for neighboring meeples (ruling assumed from bathhouses)

(i) The active player decides to score respectively feature A, feature B, watchtower feature C, and finally feature C. What are my options as a robber?
Can I rob feature A ( ) OR feature B ( ) OR the watchtower of feature C ( )?
Is this correct?

Yes (if needed), these are the options we have. Feature C ( ) will have to be scored after the watchtower of feature C ( ). At that point, the robber already stole some points and was removed from the scoreboard.

In this case, we have the following step-by-step scenario:
* All features are completed by the same tile
* All the scoring meeples are on the same space with the robber
* All the points for each feature are tallied in the order defined by the active payer if some arbitration is required:
   - Points for feature A
   - Points for feature B
   - Points for watchtower of feature C
   - Points for feature C
* The scoring is organized in steps including one scoring event per player each while completing with the order of scoring required by the watchtower bonus. So player is the only needing a second step:
   - Step 1: feature A, feature B, and watchtower of feature C
   - Step 2: feature C
* The owner of the robber is informed about Steps 1 and 2, if necessary
* Step 1 takes place: The points for feature A, feature B, and watchtower of feature C are scored
* The robber steals points from one scoring event taken place in Step 1 and it is removed from the scoreboard
* Step 2 takes place: The points for feature C are scored
* The scoring process is complete

So you plan the scoring beforehand. Then you perform the scoring in steps so players decide what scoring figure (if more than one) they move and robbers can do their work. Multiple steps will be necessary when:
* A player scores more than one feature
* A player has a feature with one or more bonus

Note that features scored by several players sharing the majority will have to be scored for all the players involved at the same time.

(ii) The active player decides to score respectively feature A, watchtower feature C, feature C and finally feature B.
Can I still choose between the three options above?
I would guess yes, since all scoring meeples would move for the first time in scoring round 3.

You would tally the points following that sequence (feature A, watchtower feature C, feature C and finally feature B) but you will have to score in steps so all the robbers have the option to steal points from the first scoring event from any of the three features:
   - Step 1: feature A, feature B, and watchtower of feature C --> The robber chooses one
   - Step 2: feature C

As you can see, we have several constraints that need to be accommodated:
* Multiple features: the active player may decide the order of scoring if there are conflicting side effects in the scoring that require arbitration. Otherwise each player may decide the order of scoring of their features. 
* Features with bonus: the scoring of the feature is arranged as a sequence of several scoring events that have to follow a given order during scoring. Feature C has a watchtower bonus that has to be scored before the feature itself.
* Robbers on the same space as multiple scoring figures from players scoring in the same turn: These robbers have to be able to steal points from the first scoring event they all score.

Therefore when scoring multiple features with a tile placement, you tally the points following the scoring order defined but you flatten the scoring process on the scoreboard to allow robbers to steal points properly. 

I have a few remarks we should discuss:

1)
As multiple meeples can be present on a Watchtower, strictly speaking it should be the Robber+ symbol rather than the Robber symbol. Nevertheless, it's true that the score would be always the same whatever meeple he would rob.
The same can be said for all the Markets of Leipzig.
One could argue that it is irrelevant because the scores don't change, but the same can be stated with regards to the scoring of the Shepherds or the monks on the Darmstadt church. In these cases, a Robber+ symbol is used.

I pondered all this, and my take was the following:
* Watchtowers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple meeples on the watchtower tile, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Markets of Leipzig: I used Robber because, even if there are multiple meeples in Leipzig, each meeple will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Shepherd: I used Robber+ because the scoring of various shepherds in the same field is triggered together. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.
* Darmstadt church bonus: I used Robber+ because several meeples may share the majority and get the bonus. So robbers may have a choice to make between several scoring figures even if they steal the same number of points.

I agree with you that the case of the shepherd and the Darmstadt bonus is a case on the edge.

Do you agree?

2)
i) For Ringmasters though, it is a different case. Theoretically, it is possible that a scored feature contains multiple Ringmasters. And these Ringmasters can score differently (in case of a road or a city) depending on the number of circus tiles around them. So, here it definitely should be the Robber+ symbol.
ii) The same is true for the Tollkeepers. A road can have several Tollkeepers with a different toll value. So also here it should be the Robber+ symbol.

My take was the following following the lead of the previous block:
* Ringmasters: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple ringmasters on the same feature, each meeple will score the bonus individually and the scoring may differ, as you say, depending on their location. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.
* Tollkeepers: I used Robber because, even if there are several multiple tollhouses at the ends of a road, each tollhouse will score the bonus individually. So robbers will steal from one scoring figure at a time.

In general, as you can see, bonus points scored individually are tagged with Robber, and those involving several figures in the same scoring are tagged with Robber+.

I can understand your point, but still... Who decides in which order the bonuses are scored? Also the active player?
I don't think this is officially defined in the rules, is it?

The rules do not state anything about the order of scoring when several bonus points have to be scored:
* Watchtowers and Tollkeepers and the WE Gingerbread Man do not know each other exists.
* Markets of Leipzig, the fairy, ringmasters... do not know each other exist in most cases.

The active player may dictate a feature scoring order, but each player should be allowed to score the prolog bonuses and the epilog bonuses in the order they choose to maximize their chances to get a Message and to hinder other players' robbers...

For the first four scoring events, it seems less important as the end result will be the same anyhow.
But for the Ringmasters and Tollkeepers points, it is important.
(i) Is the active player deciding about the order of scoring the Ringmasters or Tollkeepers?
(ii) Or can the Robber just decide which of the Ringmasters / Tollkeepers he will rob as they are all scored in the same scoring event? This would be in line with his right to choose for features scored simultanously.
I would go for option (ii) and then I still believe that there should be a Robber+ symbol :-)

Analogously, the same would be valid for Watchtowers and Markets of Leipzig.

...unless there is a need for an arbitration (by the active player) because several players control the feature and they have conflicting interests with the scoring order.

As per the (lack of) rules each player could decide individually the scoring order of their prolog bonuses and epilog bonuses even if sharing the control of the feature.

Example: A road controlled by and with the following:
* Watchtower bonus for and 
* Tollhouse bonus for
* Ringmaster bonus for  and
* Fairy bonus for
* Wainwrights quarter bonus for and

You could score it as follows:
* Step 1: Watchtower bonus for + Tollhouse for 
* Step 2: Feature scoring for and (cannot be divided) + Watchtower bonus for 
* Step 3 Fairy bonus for + Wainwrights quarter bonus for  + Ringmaster bonus for 
* Step 4: Ringmaster bonus for 
* Step 5: Wainwrights quarter bonus for

Other sequences are valid as long as:
* The scoring events of the bonus prolog take place before their respective features
* The scoring events of the bonus epilog take place after their respective features
* The feature scoring is treated as scoring event involving several meeples (given the right conditions on the scoreboard, a robber should be able to steal points from any of them as they belong to the same scoring event)

All in all, everything comes down to the following principles:
* Players may decide the order of evaluation of their features and their bonuses (even if affecting others)
* The active player will make the decision when an arbitration is needed because:
  - Several players share majority on a feature and they don't agree on the order of evaluation (due to multiple outcomes)
  - Several players performed single-meeple scorings and there are free bathhouses

EDIT: Added example and additional clarifications