Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Bumsakalaka on October 29, 2020, 08:30:21 AM
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In rules of new edition German Cathedrals at Wikipedia at http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany)
is one "Note" which I don't fully understand.
Note: A road starting and ending at the cathedral, is counted as one road, which will be scored once. [4]
Foot note says: This note included in the 1st edition was omitted in the new edition.
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany#cite_note-4 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany#cite_note-4)
So for me in new version, every road segment started on Cathedral tile is calculated separately doesn't matter if roads are connected.
If they will want to keep it, they will do it. If they remove it, it has to be removed also from WikiCarpedia and work with this as Rule change between C1 and C2.
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It’s a bit speculative to assume that because they omit this note the rules change ... maybe they have omitted it for space. It would be best to ask HiG directly before modifying anything. Keem calm and be a meeple :yellow-meeple:
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Ok. Space can be problem, but usually every version usually simplify rules. Maybe this is one of them ;-)
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I don't see this change in the rules of the new edition of the rules tbh.
It states that 'the 3 or 4 roads segments on the cathedral tile are counted separately', which I believe was in the rules for the 1st edition as well
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I'll see them when rules arrived. Currently we have lockdown, so can't go to my check my post box ;-(
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I see no change in the rules... The wording is almost exactly to the one of the C1 edition.
I kept this note because it can spare players from some neverending discussions. If you have a road starting and ending ar the same German cathedral, the archbishop only scores points for it once, that is, the archbishop does not score points separately for each road connected to a road segment on the German cathedral tile.
Maybe HiG omitted this note because it was redundant with this example:
(http://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/fb/German_Cathedrals_C2_Example_02.png)
Scoring a completed German Cathedral: You get 8 points for the finished cathedral (Two closed roads: 1x worth 5 points and 1x worth 3 points). Blue gets 6 points for the closed road.
You can see that the road looping back to the German cathedral is scored only once. Even if it is connected to two different road segments on the cathedral tile.
However, you can see how the road looping back is worth 5 points instead of the 4 points (1 per tile) we are used to. So scoring the road segments on the German cathedral separately (noticeable on roads looping back) does not imply you score the full road once per road segment on the German cathedral tile. Again, this is what the missing note was stressing.
As I said earlier, the rules do not differ from C1. Even the examples are the same so I guess we can sleep peacefully tonight in the land of re-released expansions.
Hope this helps!
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Maybe HiG omitted this note because it was redundant with this example:
(http://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/fb/German_Cathedrals_C2_Example_02.png)
Scoring a completed German Cathedral: You get 8 points for the finished cathedral (Two closed roads: 1x worth 5 points and 1x worth 3 points). Blue gets 6 points for the closed road.
Absolutely! One picture which can solve multiple issues. Note is not necesarry anymore.
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Due to this lack of space, examples have become as important to the rules as the written words, since they clarify or extend the rules in some way... In some other cases they may be misleading like for Watchtowers. >:D
So in this case, the examples are a plus worth paying attention to. :(y) :(y)
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Yes of course, when picture in Watchtower will be like here, that by one tile will be finished watchtower issues on both sided of Watchtower and said, that meeple on watchtower tile on city get's points for watchtower and meeple on road but on on watchtower will not get points. Then it will be clear ;-)
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But I have a question:
There is a road connected to two German Cathedrals in length of 4 tiles (2 of them are German Cathedral tiles).
How many poins get Thiev?
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Depends, is this for scoring the road? Or scoring for the cathedral?
For the road, it would be 8 points (4 tiles, 2 per tile),
For the cathedral, it would be 4
And to get back to the initial topic:
I must say I think the removal of that note actually makes things clearer for me. I read it as that the cathedral tile is only counted once for these, but it is aiming at the individual segments of the road on the tile. Meaning that a road starting and ending at the cathedral tile is counted as a road once. It makes so much sense, that having the note confuses me more. So I'm happy it was removed in the new print ;D
Another thing I noticed today:
It is the same in both versions of the rules, but the rules state for endscoring:
"At the end of the game, all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral"
I read this as the road tiles giving points, but the actual cathedral tile not giving any points at the end?
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Depends, is this for scoring the road? Or scoring for the cathedral?
For the road, it would be 8 points (4 tiles, 2 per tile),
For the cathedral, it would be 4
Thanks, I needed just clarification
It is the same in both versions of the rules, but the rules state for endscoring:
"At the end of the game, all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral"
I read this as the road tiles giving points, but the actual cathedral tile not giving any points at the end?
Well this is confusing me and I'm not yet in that state of implementation and really never played this expansion because (C1 I bought 3 months ago for this Christmas as gift and C2 will replace it so I will have spare ;-).
But when you have Arcibishop at end of game on German Cathedral, you will get point for every tile of roads connected to German Cathedral. Even already finished.
It's just reading sentense without any consequenses with previous rules ;-)
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But I have a question:
There is a road connected to two German Cathedrals in length of 4 tiles (2 of them are German Cathedral tiles).
How many poins get Thiev?
Why I'm asking? See picture ;-)
(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4852.0;attach=13141)
I see.... >:D
Let's discuss road scoring with German cathedrals...
German cathedrals do not stack, the same as inns on a road. So you get the same points with one, two or more German cathedrals connected to your road network.
For a 4 tile road with no inns you would score 8 points:
4 tiles x (1 point for road tile + 1 point for German cathedrals ) = 4 tile x 2 points / tile = 8 points
Depends, is this for scoring the road? Or scoring for the cathedral?
For the road, it would be 8 points (4 tiles, 2 per tile),
For the cathedral, it would be 4
Quite true! I was half way my reply when I saw yours in place! :(y) :(y)
And to get back to the initial topic:
I must say I think the removal of that note actually makes things clearer for me. I read it as that the cathedral tile is only counted once for these, but it is aiming at the individual segments of the road on the tile. Meaning that a road starting and ending at the cathedral tile is counted as a road once. It makes so much sense, that having the note confuses me more. So I'm happy it was removed in the new print ;D
The scoring of road segments separately on the German cathedral tiles messes things up. Counting tiles vs. counting road segments on a particular tile. And this is not the end of this matter...
Another thing I noticed today:
It is the same in both versions of the rules, but the rules state for endscoring:
"At the end of the game, all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral"
I read this as the road tiles giving points, but the actual cathedral tile not giving any points at the end?
The wording of the rules about the final scoring is a bit misleading, and some clarifications by HiG were needed back in the day. I tweaked a bit the wording according in WICA.
At the end of the game unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and unfinished cathedrals give you points. Highwaymen and archbishops give you one point for each road tile leading to the cathedral (road segments on German Cathedral tiles are counted separately.)
The clarifications by HiG in 4/2016 (see https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906)) indicated that:
* Highwaymen on unfinished roads are scored as usual, that is, taking into account the majority.
* Archbishops on unfinished cathedrals get 1 point per tile from all the finished and unfinished roads leading to the cathedral.
In any case, road segments on the cathedral tile are counted separately for road starting and ending at the cathedral.
Here you can find a table that summarizes all the scoring cases described in the rules (in not a very clear manner due to the lack of space):
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany#cite_note-german-cathedral-scoring-3 (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany#cite_note-german-cathedral-scoring-3)
If you need some extra info, please check these "riddles" by Kettlefish (the question and later the answer several posts below):
* Scoring a German cathedral during the game (including inns, German castles and more):
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37680#msg37680 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37680#msg37680)
* Scoring of a German cathedral at the end of the game (including inns, German castles and more):
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37715#msg37715 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37715#msg37715)
I love her riddles! ;D
If you like them and want more, you can find a compilation by different authors here...
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Quizzes (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Quizzes)
Enjoy!
PS: It seems it took me too long to post all this.
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OK, so the German Cathedral tile itself scores twice for a road that loops back on itself on the basis of individual tile segments. What about this, contrived, example? Do the "tennis ball" and bridge" tiles score once or twice?
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At the end of the game, this German cathedral scores (2+2+11x2) 26 points.
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Yep, tiles are always counted once, except German cathedral tiles, where each road segment is counted separately.
So the "tennis ball" tile and the tile with the bridge are counted once.
The same would happen with tiles with wooden bridges on tiles with a road and both taking part in the same road, or tunnels connecting multiple branches of the same road network on the same tile. Check Question #18 for an example showing this:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4911.msg73208#msg73208 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4911.msg73208#msg73208)
(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4911.0;attach=13409)
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Many thanks for clarifying.
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Since I see that the subject of cathedrals is active again, I take the opportunity to say that the rules would have to be revised. Especially interactions with other expansions, leaving aside the use of fallacies of authority (Kettelfish quizes).
One option would be for Kettelfish to really detail what HiG clarified for him and what didn't and if it isn’t possible then to contact HiG directly what they have to say about the cathedrals ...
I would be interested to know what they think about the interaction with the bonuses of the German castles and the little buildings and how they logically justify their use for the Archbishop.
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Example with 3 types of bonuses (inns, little buildings and Castle of Germany). I have added the three types of little buildings (Tower, house and shed) using the variant of 3,2,1 point.
How much would the cathedral score knowing that it isn’t the end of the game?
-Indiana Meeple Jones: I feel the power of all roads over me hahaha
Feel free to comment, although I would appreciate justified and reasoned answers using only the rules of each expansion without nothing more.
(https://i.imgur.com/DJ3cdwq.jpg?1)
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I would score it 24 points:
Cathedral tile with four road segments, two with an inn and two without: 6 pts
2 road tiles: 2 points
5 road tiles with inn: 10 points
3 little buildings of resp. values 1,2 and 3 points.
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I would score it 24 points:
Cathedral tile with four road segments, two with an inn and two without: 6 pts
2 road tiles: 2 points
5 road tiles with inn: 10 points
3 little buildings of resp. values 1,2 and 3 points.
Thanks for your contribution! I would lack the justification of why you add certain bonuses and others not, only with the rules of each expansion. :yellow-meeple:
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I came across this thread on CarcF from 4/2016 (again), that includes a reply by Michael Fronia of HiG confirming that Kettlefish's riddles with German Cathedrals and German castles are correct.
* Thread on CarcF:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237)
* Post on CarcF with Michael Fronia's reply:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906)
* Thread on CarcF with Kettlefish's riddles referenced by Michael Fronia:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222)
* Thread on CarcC with the same riddles:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.0)
Conclusions:
- German castles are taken into consideration when scoring a road (connected to German cathedrals o not) during the game
- German castles are not considered when scoring a German cathedral for the roads connected to it
Additional comments by Kettlefish included in the thread:
- Scoring a German cathedral has nothing to do with scoring the roads connected to it
- The +3 bonus points [for a German castle] are added to the road being scored when this road is completed in the turn. A German Cathedral is scored [during the game] when all roads starting/ending at its tile are completed. This means that the scoring of the a German cathedral and the last completed road connected to it will happen together, and yet the German cathedral is not a road and certainly not a city.
Note that during the game, when you score a German cathedral, you receive points for all the completed roads connected to it, some of them maybe even completed in previous turns (and therefore unoccupied at this point). Inns are considered as per the rules.
After the game, any incomplete occupied German cathedral will be scored taking into consideration all the roads connected to it:
- those already completed
- those still incomplete (even those road segments on the German cathedral not connected to another tile)
Inns are also considered as per the rules.
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OK, so the German Cathedral tile itself scores twice for a road that loops back on itself on the basis of individual tile segments. What about this, contrived, example? Do the "tennis ball" and bridge" tiles score once or twice?
When that long road is scored, it's compossed of 10 tiles so it would give 20 pts, +10 for the inn for 30.
When the cathedral is scored, that road is composed of 13 segments and it contributes 13 points, x2 for 26 with the inn.
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OK, so the German Cathedral tile itself scores twice for a road that loops back on itself on the basis of individual tile segments. What about this, contrived, example? Do the "tennis ball" and bridge" tiles score once or twice?
(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4852.0;attach=13519)
When that long road is scored, it's compossed of 10 tiles so it would give 20 pts, +10 for the inn for 30.
When the cathedral is scored, that road is composed of 13 segments and it contributes 13 points, x2 for 26 with the inn.
The long road has 10 tiles, but as its ends twice at the German cathedral tile, those road segments are counted separately. The other tiles are only counted once, no matter if some of them contribute twice to the road.
So, the long road is worth 33 points:
(9 tiles + 2 road segments on cathedral tile) x (1 point for the road + 1 point for the inn + 1 point for the German cathedral) = 11 x 3 = 33 points
The German cathedral is still incomplete, so as Carcassonne93 indicated, it is worth 26 points if scored at the end of the game:
At the end of the game, this German cathedral scores (2+2+11x2) 26 points.
The scoring of the German cathedral worth 26 points (2 + 2 + 22) is as follows:
- Top incomplete road: 2 points ( (1 tile + 1 road segment on cathedral tile) x 1 point = 2 x 1 = 2 points)
- Left completed road: 2 points ( (1 tile + 1 road segment on cathedral tile) x 1 point = 2 x 1 = 2 points)
- Completed long road: 22 points (9 tiles + 2 road segments on cathedral tile) x (1 point for the road + 1 point for the inn) = 11 x 2 = 22 points)
So you always consider tiles, but you count separate road segments on German cathedral tiles. The latter only makes a difference when a road ends more than once at the same German cathedral tile. Most of the time, a road will only end once at a German cathedral, so counting road segments on the German cathedral tile (1 in this case) and counting the tile itself will lead to the same results.
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Random question: can anybody find an original digital version of these rules online anywhere? There is no rules link on the Cundco listing (or rather, the place where there should be a link is not a link) and I am compiling a file of all the 2nd edition rules. I've tried some minor data mining as well as searching everything I could find on Google, but to no avail. Any help is appreciated.
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You can find the rules on CarcF here:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=385&t=5197 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=385&t=5197)
I don't know why HiG shared them but didn't upload them to Cundco yet.
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Thank you! You're awesome.
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Glad I could help! Have fun! ;D