Author Topic: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide  (Read 26084 times)

Offline SRBO

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2015, 01:01:43 AM »
I think a "complete" strategy guide should offer advice on multiple ways to win, not just a single "best" way, because I don't think there is only one best way.

There isn't only 'one' way to win;p so there comes an advice in multiple ways:$

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2015, 02:06:30 AM »
Sure there is:  score more points than any other player. :p

But I agree, I think it should primarily target skills and then focus on correctly balancing them.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2015, 02:53:52 AM »
We have a pretty clean slate in front of us at the moment so I've come up with a few ideas just to get the ball rolling. If they're rubbish, please say so; I promise not to be offended! I'm certainly no obervet, but I'm prepared to help make this happen and if we can kick-start some sort of discussion over structure etc and what people want to see then it's all for the good!

So, my current thinking is that there should be a section of general skills and considerations followed by a section of more specific strategies and tips.

The general stuff will be more obvious to most of us but will still be very much worthwhile or indeed essential for any novice player looking to improve. This might include tips on managing your meeples sensibly, building features defensively, increasing the value of farms and knowing how and when best to attack your opponent's features. It might even make sense for this whole section to be split into three sub-sections so that attack, defence and general can all be dealt with individually, but this is just an initial thought and alternate suggestions are very much welcomed and encouraged!

The second section will be more specific for certain methods of play and favourite tricks (the ones we're willing to share anyway!) I am currently working on a short article on "Meeple Trapping" which I intend to share here as an example of the sort of thing this might include. I'm hoping that others will read it and then criticise it, add to it or point out any omissions before the edited and approved version is eventually included in the guide. If anyone else feels inspired to write about any of their favourite tips etc then please feel free to do so but post your intentions here before embarking on it so that we don't end up duplicating our efforts!

Some initial assumptions I've made to help me personally are that I'm writing specifically about head-to-head games using the basic 72 tiles. There is certainly room to include any/ all expansions in the guide but I'm going to treat this as "extra merit" once the core body of the guide can generally be considered complete. This doesn't mean everyone else has to work in the same way though.  C:-)

Thoughts?

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2015, 07:35:07 AM »
Hello again.

As I mentioned earlier, I've written a relatively short but appropriately detailed article intended for the guide as an example of how I imagine our various strategies, tips and hints might be presented.

My intention is that we can butcher this about as required until we arrive at some sort of format that we're all happy with so please let me know your thoughts!



Meeple Trapping

What does "trapping my opponent's meeples" actually mean?

The act of "trapping" an opposing meeple refers to the practise of ensuring that the meeple will never be returned to its owner by placing a tile such that the feature to which it has been used to claim will never be completed (either because the tile required to do so doesn't exist or has already been placed elsewhere). This is particularly useful when the trapped meeple is a knight as this also ensures that the city will be scored at one point per tile/ pennant rather than the two points it would be worth if the city to which it belonged were to be completed.

The screenshot below shows three trapped meeples belonging to an awful AI opponent that deserved to have this done to it:




How do I trap my opponent's meeples?

Trapping opposing meeples involves making "holes" in the emerging landscape that a) border a feature occupied by an opposing meeple and b) can never be filled. In order to succeed at this, you need to understand what combinations of features can be used to make such holes, and then work towards creating the hole before your opponent draws the tile required to fill it while this is still a possibility.

Here are some common combinations of features that don't exist within the basic game.

Any combination of: city, field, field, road
Any combination of: city, city, field, road

It may take two or three tile placements to trap an opposing meeple depending on the placement of the tile offering the feature claimed by the meeple you wish to trap. This is often what makes deciding whether it's worth trapping an opponent's meeple so difficult as there will almost always be an alternative use for the tile you need to set the trap. This means that your potential scoring capacity will probably be reduced, albeit only negligibly in most cases, but in others you may actually end up giving points away to your opponent in order to trap their meeple. So judge carefully but commit yourself to it if you decide to do go ahead.

1. 2.

1. Red appears to be off to a good start. Or is he? The city and the road form the first two sides of where our intended "hole" will be.
2. This purpose of this placement isn't immediately obvious. Nevertheless, it is required in order to surround where we want the hole to be, as will be revealed.

3. 4.

3. The t-junction is used here to make the third side of the "hole" a field. If it had been oriented in any other way, the third side of the "hole" would have been a road which would have made the hole considerably easier to fill.
4. This is the final nail in the coffin for red. Whilst the tile could have been oriented with either the city or a field facing into the hole, pointing the city towards the hole means that the city is uncompleteable and unextendable (neither of which are words).

In the example above, Red now has two meeples trapped. The knight is worth five points (two of which were a gift from you) while the thief is worth three points. Don't forget that although neither meeple will be returned to its owner, the value of the thief can still be extended until his road has been closed or blocked at the other end too.


Why should I trap my opponent's meeples?

Most importantly, because it reduces your opponent's scoring potential since he has less meeples left with which to claim emerging features. This causes him to be more cautious about placing meeples (assuming he has any left) and often results in certain features being left unclaimed. With a meeple in hand, these features can then be used to generate more points for yourself.

Furthermore, this means that if you and your opponent are competing for control of a game-deciding feature, you stand a better chance of out-competing your opponent if he has one meeple less than you. This advantage can be critical if you're both trying to win the same farm for example.


When should I trap my opponent's meeples?

Whenever the opportunity arises!

If possible, look to trap opposing meeples early in the game as this will have the biggest impact on your opponent's scoring potential. The more of the game they spend with fewer meeples available, the more of a chance you'll have to build up a winning lead over them.

If you can trap two or more meeples with the same missing tile then look to do this as quickly as possible. Good opportunities to do this are if your opponent places two or more monks adjacent to each other, or if you can direct a road claimed by your opponent into a city claimed by your opponent such that neither can be completed.


How can I reduce the possibility of my opponent trapping my meeples?

Firstly, bear in mind that having a trapped meeple isn't always the end of the world, especially if you can win some good points from it despite it being trapped, or if it's near the end of the game and you still have several meeples at your disposal. However, it is rarely ideal so consider the following points carefully:

Monks are very vulnerable to being trapped so think carefully before you claim any cloisters you may draw and make sure that any tiles required to complete them are relatively common (and available – the rrff tile is the most common in the basic set but if all nine of these have been placed it is no longer common in your game!) Be especially careful if you intend to place a cloister directly adjacent to another of your own cloisters (unless either is completed in doing so) as you are painting a bulls eye on yourself if you do!

Traps usually have to be set up (unless you play directly into one) so keep a close eye on every move that your opponent makes and ask yourself why they've made it. Be particularly suspicious of any tile placed that doesn't either generate points for your opponent and/or win them back a meeple. If you do spot an opportunity for your opponent to trap one or more of your meeples then the chances are that it hasn't come about by accident. Make it your priority to thwart this by placing a tile such that the hole created can be filled by a tile that remains to be played. Obviously you'll need to do this before your opponent completes their trapping of your meeple by ensuring that the hole can't be filled!


Final thoughts?

Trapped meeples are rarely worthless and will therefore contribute towards your opponent's final score. So whilst merely trapping an opposing meeple in an uncompletable feature is a good start, the value of that trapped meeple can still be increased up until the point that any open sides of the feature claimed have been closed off (i.e. that it can no longer be extended).

Sometimes you may trap a meeple of your own in the process of trapping one or more opposing meeples. For example, if your opponent is attacking a city that belongs to you and you can thwart this by trapping the attacking meeple on the adjacent city tile then it's likely that your city will never be completed. However, your own trapped meeple will be worth more than the opposing trapped meeple and consequently represents an advantage to you. This advantage may still be extended by continuing to extend your city if no better placement opportunities exist for subsequent tiles.

Trapping your opponent's meeples is often an effective strategy even if the trap you've placed isn't guaranteed to be permanent. The "rrrr" (crossroads) tile and the "cccc" (4-sided city) tile are rare in the basic game as there is only one instance of each. If you can set a trap such that your opponent depends on getting one of these as yet unplaced tiles in order to complete a particular feature or win control of a feature of yours, they have a 50/50 chance of drawing it. Even if they do eventually draw it and elude your trap on this occasion, any delay or inconvenience you've caused them in the process still represents an advantage to you up until that point.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 04:09:45 AM by danisthirty »

Offline Darwin

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2015, 08:23:35 AM »
A really nice article danisthirty :(y)

A strategy guide would be awesome!
But maybe it's an idea to just start with a collection of the different strategy-articles published here on the forum in one pdf-file with a table of contents. I have myself really enjoyed the previous articles:
- Being Kind To Be Cruel
- Cloister Blocking - Why, When and How
- The Awesome Power of the Wagon
A collection of articles like this will be very useful for members like me, which are rather new to the forum. I am sure there are more articles like these in the forum that I have missed.

After a collection like this is completed it could be the next step to make it more streamlined. But in my humble opinion I think it would be easier to keep a collection of articles up to date, than a single document that is intended to cower it all.

Offline CarcinFool

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2015, 11:30:26 AM »
I totally support the collection-of-articles approach suggested by Darwin! There are so many possible and interconnected topics that I think trying to impose any type of strict organization in a single document would be difficult.

Perhaps a good solution would be a blog with several contributors? As new posts are added tags could be used to make groups of posts on particular subjects more easily discoverable. Some could be short tips and tricks posts while others might be longer, more in-depth articles (like danisthirty's meeple-trapping article). I'm not that familiar with the tools here on CarcassoneCentral, so I don't really know if it would work here or if another tool like WordPress would be better? I'll leave that to the veterans to discuss...

I actually set up my own blog for this at one point and have several topic ideas and a few draft posts, but never really published any. I'd really enjoy contributing to a community project like this.

Offline CarcinFool

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2015, 11:32:14 AM »
Also, Darwin -- could you please post the links for the articles you mentioned or otherwise point me to their location? I tried to find them here using the site search, but it didn't turn anything up...

Thanks!

Offline Darwin

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2015, 12:34:04 PM »
Also, Darwin -- could you please post the links for the articles you mentioned or otherwise point me to their location? I tried to find them here using the site search, but it didn't turn anything up...

Thanks!

With links to the articles:
- Being Kind To Be Cruel
- Cloister Blocking - Why, When and How
- The Awesome Power of the Wagon

 :green-meeple:

Offline CarcinFool

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2015, 12:35:44 PM »
Thx!

Offline Decar

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2015, 12:38:00 PM »
Looks like a Brilliant article, I need to read it a few times before it all sinks in.  Great work!

Offline Carcking

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2015, 12:44:42 PM »
Nice article Dan, but I wonder why you keep using Red in your examples? Hmmm?  ;)
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2015, 12:50:35 PM »
Red rules! Don't knock it.

Anyway, it has been suggested to me that some of the Element of the Week articles be converted into full-blown strategy articles as well. I am not opposed to this idea, though I myself do not presently have the time to do any such task. I have Elements scheduled through to July (with possibly one or two more if Hans im Glück releases anything in the meantime) but all of the first six expansions have been discussed as of this Friday. I think there is definitely expansion strategies in some of those posts, so I'd recommend checking them out.

On that note, I must agree, though, that the base game is priority #1, followed by The River, since it's usually bundled with it. After that, I think the expansions could be included with a focus on the large expansions first in release order.

Offline Allan in Brisbane

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2015, 08:04:27 PM »
This is a really useful topic.
The connections to the strategies in the Carcassonne News Letter is really helpful.
Also just did a bit of a google search.
The people over at Board Game Geek have also had a bit of a discussion.
It is here:-
strategy-guide
David Peterson is the main contributor, but others have put together some worthwhile comments.

Other places that talk about, and demonstrate, Carcassonne Strategies include:-
carcassonne-rules-and-strategy-guide.html  (you need to scroll down a bit)
strategy-carcassonne.html
http://theforbiddenlimb.com/2013/12/27/carcassonne-strategy-primer/
https://www.quora.com/Carcassonne-board-game/What-are-some-winning-strategies-in-Carcassone

This last one is really helpful as it is a slideshow presentation with great visuals.
Kind of like a tutorial.
http://www.slideshare.net/cazm/carcassonne-tips-tricks

Everyone is going to have different views on the helpfulness of these pointers.
However I just wanted to demonstrate the point that a combined effort - perhaps using the genius talents from other sources outside Carcassonne Central (yes there is such a place!) - could produce a quality product.



Offline danisthirty

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2015, 03:03:50 AM »
Excellent, lot's to respond to!  :)

Firstly, I agree with Darwin's suggestion that we should simply start writing and building up our library of strategic guidance and tips. Definitely better to attempt to organise it all once we've got something to organise, so thanks for that.

I do quite like the idea of using a blog as a tool for helping to drive content generation but this would be a Carcassonne Central project so it would be better to try and keep it on Carcassonne Central if possible. There's no reason why we couldn't have a sub-forum somewhere if this idea takes off, and submit each contribution as a new post there. Anybody can post, and anybody can provide feedback.

I hadn't really thought much about the tips offered in the newsletters but these combined with some of the other strategy-minded posts made on the forums would be a good starting point and obervet has passed on some of his collected works in this area too. In addition to this, whaleyland has reminded us that there's a lot of good stuff in the "expansion of the week" posts so this would be another good source if somebody wanted to start mining through these?

My reservation with including bits from other strategy guides found on the internet is that I don't always find them very helpful. This is a personal thing, but much of the advice will be obvious to anyone who has played more than a handful of games, and a lot of the rest is questionable (in my opinion at least - or maybe I’m just being unnecessarily pedantic?). For example, a few of the writers seem to be under the impression that cloisters are like a golden ticket that mustn’t be wasted because of the potential for scoring points. I don’t agree with this as the risk of permanently losing a meeple is too great. I have problems with the assertion that you shouldn't place farmers too early either as I think this depends entirely on how the game develops. This isn't up to me though, nor should it be, so if anyone else disagrees with this then feel free to chime in now!

In short, I think that as a group of talented, dedicated Carcassonne players, we ought to be able to come up with some genuinely strong strategic advice that's rooted in tens of thousands of games worth of experience and hundreds of discussions that we've had purely about Carcassonne. Including anything else for the sake of it would just dilute this.

Please keep the discussion coming!  :(y)

Offline Allan in Brisbane

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Re: Carcassonne CSG: Complete Strategy Guide
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2015, 03:16:05 AM »
My reservation with including bits from other strategy guides found on the internet is that I don't always find them very helpful. This is a personal thing, but much of the advice will be obvious to anyone who has played more than a handful of games, and a lot of the rest is questionable (in my opinion at least - or maybe I’m just being unnecessarily pedantic?).

Even having this advise as a "strategy" is good to know. I guess this means if you want to get the right advice you need to go to the most trusted source :)
It has been a good learning curve of a day.


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