Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => News and Events => Topic started by: kettlefish on May 02, 2016, 10:48:23 AM
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"CundCo - open letter for the community"
The CundCo Shop send this statement to me by email with their wish to give you all this information.
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Wow. It's a long one! Thanks for sharing kettlefish. Will comment when I've actually read it. :) :(y)
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Its a long one indeed.
To be honest if you are ordering from cundco a lot of times, just read it entirely.
As you can see now cundco works with 4 people and they comment honestly. They give apologies by this letter and the reasons behind it.
It's a good letter, explaining a lot for many people.
Good job Cundco
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Thank you for sharing this with us kettlefish.
I think CundCo have been explained their decisions very clearly. To me it's obvious they have made vast improvements in efficiency and are very aware of their shortcomings which they are constantly trying to improve. I hope members here are patient with the system and continue to offer all the support they can :(y) :(y)
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I've only skimmed it but I thought there was a subtext of "if you abuse the replacement system, it might disappear."
Also I wonder if we could talk to them about kickstarter projects for reprint drives.
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I've only skimmed it but I thought there was a subtext of "if you abuse the replacement system, it might disappear."
Also I wonder if we could talk to them about kickstarter projects for reprint drives.
Its what they say. They want to do the reprint but its economically not good for them. Kickstarter would be a good option though. Well maybe kettlefish can talk them into it.
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If you wish Kickstarter - then you can send them yourself a message.
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Its what they say. They want to do the reprint but its economically not good for them. Kickstarter would be a good option though. Well maybe kettlefish can talk them into it.
They said they needed to sell thousands in order to make a reprint worthwhile. I would be willing to buy 2 or 3 of some of the rarities if it meant a reprint. I wonder if we could band together and get something accomplished. I'm not sure we have enough members to pull it off.
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I've only skimmed it but I thought there was a subtext of "if you abuse the replacement system, it might disappear."
Also I wonder if we could talk to them about kickstarter projects for reprint drives.
Its what they say. They want to do the reprint but its economically not good for them. Kickstarter would be a good option though. Well maybe kettlefish can talk them into it.
Well if we put a poll together to see how much this website could raise for various expansions we could go to them with some evidence.
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If we were to pitch in for a Kickstarter campaign, I feel that a full-sized promo expansion would be in order. Something that would include rare and hard-to-find/out-of-print expansions. Kind of like what Tunnels, Plague & Corn Circles was going to do back when Rio Grande still had the license. Otherwise, I don't think there would be enough demand for a Kickstarter. It could be a relatively large expansion, of course. But other than Tunnels and Crop Circles I, what expansion is inaccessible right now? Would they even consider a massive Kickstarter expansion in the old art? How about pitching for a Big Box 6 in the old art with lots of exclusive promo expansions (including Phantoms)? Queen Games has sold a bunch of Big Boxes of their games on Kickstarter.
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Is it wrong that I feel a bit honored to have started a whole paragraph off that letter? Probably. Many people of the community were better off afterwards so that's the thing I'll remember.
Anyway, can't really disagree with anything in the letter. Really good explanation on every aspect of the shop and how they run it. Hope everybody (including me) pulls some lessons from it and acts accordingly in the future.
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It would be a sad sad day if their service was lost.
I appreciate the work they've done and applaud the address to the community!!!
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I haven't ordered from CundCo Shop, so I haven't experienced any difficulties with them. But from an objective point of view, the letter struck me as genuine, and an honest attempt to explain their situation. For what it's worth, I'd say let's give them some slack, and try to be understanding. The last thing we want is to discourage them from supporting our beloved game. Just my two cents.
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It would be a sad sad day if their service was lost.
:(y)
For what it's worth, I'd say let's give them some slack, and try to be understanding. The last thing we want is to discourage them from supporting our beloved game.
:(y)
I agree with these two statements completely.
Let's just try to remember this the next time they receive an avalanche of orders from us and are unable to fulfil them all as quickly as we might like...
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I'll hold my order until things calms down. Was just about to order another batch of some 90 thousands ti...
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I'll hold my order until things calms down. Was just about to order another batch of some 90 thousands ti...
great - when you order the 90 thousands tiles - perhaps some of them could be the CropCirles I...
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If he ordered 90000 "CropCircles I" tiles they might reprint it :)
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that would be one hell of a game
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In response to the idea for a Kickstarter for out-of-print and hard-to-find Carcassonne expansions, I have sent Hans im Glück the following email:
Greetings Hans im Glück staff,
First, I wanted to thank you for the detailed and thorough explanation for the difficulties you have all had with managing the CundCo site. The site is something that evolved from a strictly spare parts service so it makes sense that there are some transition issues as it slowly evolves into a full online store. Patience is not, unfortunately, a valued virtue in these days, and even I have had momentary lapses of it recently.
That being said, I read from your statement that one of the difficulties is that you need to have a print run of an expansion that justifies the purchase price. Around 1,000 copies need to be ordered just to make a profit. I understand that. I am an author and have had to pre-pay for books before even when I was not certain of the demand. That being said, I personally have moved entirely to a print-on-demand system for my books. This, however, is not possible for printing tiles (at least I don't think it is). But I have a solution that should satisfy almost everyone, including you most of all.
The problem as I see it is that:
a) People still want rare expansions
b) People do not want Carcassonne II artwork tiles
c) You are getting too many requests in for out-of-print tiles/expansions
Why not satisfy all of these problems with an exclusive one-time-only Kickstarter campaign? The purpose of the campaign would be to make available for one last time all of the Doris Matthäus-art expansions that have never been commercially released. Then this would be it. No more reprints of any Matthäus art tiles. You could write off the entire Doris Matthäus line and dedicate all of your efforts to the new artwork. This way, old fans would get the expansions they have been looking for (and many do not know about CundCo or find the pricing too expensive for shipping overseas), there would be one last release of old art expansions to satisfy the traditional Carcassonne audience, and you could wash yours hands of the entire former series. It would be ingenious and it could revolutionise your future direction with Carcassonne.
And just to prove that this can work, Queen Games is only a slightly larger operation than your own company and they have recently completed their 41st Kickstarter campaign. The size of these have ranged from re-releases to new games to relatively small expansions (such as the 7th! for Alhambra and the 4th for Kingdom Builder) to large Big Boxes. I have backed a number of their campaigns and I promise that I, and other members of CarcassonneCentral and Carcassonne-Forum, would back a Kickstarter campaign for Carcassonne.
What I recommend is a massive three expansion release with a full game included as well:
1) Carcassonne on Tour: Includes Windroses, German Monasteries, German Castles, German Cathedrals, and Little Buildings for a total of 24 tiles and 18 tokens;
2) Carcassonne—Crop Circles, Tunnel & Plague: Includes Crop Circles I, Tunnel, Plague, and Besiegers for a total of 22 tiles and a bunch of chits and tokens;
3) Carcassonne—Phantoms & Halflings: Includes The Halflings I and II, the 10th Anniversary tiles (reprinted with non-10th Anniversary logo), The Mini Expansion (from Games Quarterly Magazine), and the Phantom for a total of 34 tile-sized items and 6 meeples;
4) Carcassonne: The Castle SPECIAL EDITION: Includes Carcassonne: The Castle and The Falcon expansion (with new cover art like with Hunters & Gatherers).
You could include as stretch rewards The School, Darmstadt, the Dutch Monasteries, the Labyrinth, the meeple stickers, spare meeple sets, etc, (or include no stretch rewards at all).
I feel that a Kickstarter that makes all of these expansions publicly available in a new format but in the old art will solve a lot of your problems. It will make an official outlet for fans to buy the expansions (rather than using CundCo), it will satisfy fan demand for expansions in the old art without you actually having to commission Doris Matthäus to make that new art, it will provide you with willing customers and a pre-order system to finance these expansion reprints, and it will supply CundCo with much-needed replacement parts for the short term to satisfy replacement (but not commercial) demand when parts actually need replacing.
I know you are busy with a lot of other projects, but I feel this proposal is really the solution you should consider for all of your problems with the Carcassonne community. I know it would satisfy me and I am fairly certain it would satisfy the vast majority of other Carcassonne fans and may even acts as a new viable method of releasing or re-releasing old games such as The City, The Discovery, New World, and the other spin-offs that have not seen a re-release in a number of years. I hope that you will consider this option seriously for the benefits it will bring to everybody involved, fan and company alike.
Sincerely,
Derek "Whaleyland" Whaley
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Well said Derek! :(y)
I would have been happy with just a reprint of the rarities, but if they want to do it up, I will show them the money.
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Well said Derek! :(y)
I would have been happy with just a reprint of the rarities, but if they want to do it up, I will show them the money.
I honestly believe that full formal expansions for everything not collected would just work better for everybody since they could point people to the boxed expansions, when those are gone just apologise and say "wait for the reprint in the new art", and also tell people with more effect that they only provide replacement services, not full expansions. That final point is where I think they went wrong. I think they need to keep their replacement service and their commercial e-store separate. That would make things much simpler for them and for us.
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]I honestly believe that full formal expansions for everything not collected would just work better for everybody since they could point people to the boxed expansions, when those are gone just apologise and say "wait for the reprint in the new art", and also tell people with more effect that they only provide replacement services, not full expansions. That final point is where I think they went wrong. I think they need to keep their replacement service and their commercial e-store separate. That would make things much simpler for them and for us.
I think you are right about keeping the replacement separate from the expansion sales. If they aren't going to print the Tower in the new art, I imagine the Plague and a few others won't be printed either. So they won't be able to say "wait for the new art" for everything. If anything, they could use this last printing as a way to permanently retire some of these expansions.
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I think you are right about keeping the replacement separate from the expansion sales. If they aren't going to print the Tower in the new art, I imagine the Plague and a few others won't be printed either. So they won't be able to say "wait for the new art" for everything. If anything, they could use this last printing as a way to permanently retire some of these expansions.
That is precisely what I was thinking. Let them go on a high note by being all included in some nice boxes with well-written rules and expansion watermarks. But the emphasis is on let them go, as in permanently retire them (except for legitimate replacement services operated by a separate division than the e-store). Until the public has one last chance to get these rare gems, they will not let them go and I think this is a good way of going about it. Granted people will still look for the different watermarks or the Cathars or Darmstadt, but this will conclude a chapter in Hans im Glück's history and allow the next chapter to truly begin.
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And also some new expansions!
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And also some new expansions!
Like "official" prints of the fan expansions that they've featured... as an example.
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And hopefully by doing a Kickstarter with an entirely new print run we might get an entire set of expansions with the same colour field!
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And hopefully by doing a Kickstarter with an entirely new print run we might get an entire set of expansions with the same colour field!
I'll admit that is an extra hope I have.
And also some new expansions!
Actually I consider this a less important goal. The point is to get everything that's hard-to-find out in the open, not make a bunch of new material.
Like "official" prints of the fan expansions that they've featured... as an example.
See above statement.
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great mail !
A question though, can they actually reprint stuff like Plague and tunnels or GQ, since rights should belong to others no ?
Like Spielbox, rio Grande, etc ...
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great mail !
A question though, can they actually reprint stuff like Plague and tunnels or GQ, since rights should belong to others no ?
Like Spielbox, rio Grande, etc ...
From what I understand, Hans im Glück owns all the rights to Spielbox expansions, except for Cathars. They may or may not have rights to reproduce the Games Quarterly Expansion since that was printed as a Rio Grande Games license expansion, but since it had no expansion elements or anything unique in it, I see no reason they could not reprint it, possibly using their own slight variant.
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I read from your statement that one of the difficulties is that you need to have a print run of an expansion that justifies the purchase price. Around 1,000 copies need to be ordered just to make a profit. I understand that.
Probably a very good email whaleyland but I had to stop reading at the second paragraph because you have misread their letter. They have never said "around 1,000 copies"... they say thousandS...
I like the idea of a kickstarter campaign though. I'd be one of the first to back it.
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Probably a very good email whaleyland but I had to stop reading at the second paragraph because you have misread their letter. They have never said "around 1,000 copies"... they say thousandS...
That may have been an intentional misreading. >:D
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And hopefully by doing a Kickstarter with an entirely new print run we might get an entire set of expansions with the same colour field!
Yes to this! And the original colour field, not the dark one.
Meanwhile, to get back onto the original point, I've got no problem with anything written in the open letter. The spare parts section was perfectly fair.
But my order of German Cathedrals and Besiegers from 21 March (paid on 22 March) has still not been processed. I have written one polite letter every week for the past five weeks and none of them have been answered. I am not asking them to move mountains here. It only takes 5 minutes for them to check the payment and write back to me saying they didn't receive it, or that they did receive it and they will process the order as soon as they can.
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Probably a very good email whaleyland but I had to stop reading at the second paragraph because you have misread their letter. They have never said "around 1,000 copies"... they say thousandS...
That may have been an intentional misreading. >:D
Hehe. Ok I see ;)
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And also some new expansions!
Actually I consider this a less important goal. The point is to get everything that's hard-to-find out in the open, not make a bunch of new material.
This actually is important... If there isnt anything new in it. The people who already have all those rare expansions wont buy it. You will need every help possible to achieve this..
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I disagree, most of the people that literally have all of the rare expansions (I imagine that is not very many people) are still going to buy these because, just as their drive has forced them to buy everything thus far, their desire for reprints with matching grass and new watermarks (and perhaps better rules) will OCD them into buying these sets as well. I think you are overestimating the amount of people who own everything. Plus, I do include The Falcon expansion (as a part of The Castle Special Edition) so there is an incentive. Furthermore:
Carcassonne on Tour Expansion: All the "German" expansions have only been available online and at CundCo, outside the reach of most players.
Carcassonne CCT&P: Corn Circles I was only printed once as a part of a special edition and Besiegers is only available on CundCo.
Carcassonne P&H: Games Quarterly (if printable) was never available in Germany and the Festival tiles were only available in an exclusive box set and on CundCo.
I'd argue that each expansion has at least one thing most people will not have from elsewhere, and probably quite a bit more. Yes, a few people, mostly on here and at CarcF have everything, but I know I'd pledge for this campaign anyway, as would many others – you too, I imagine.
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I disagree, most of the people that literally have all of the rare expansions (I imagine that is not very many people) are still going to buy these because, just as their drive has forced them to buy everything thus far, their desire for reprints with matching grass and new watermarks (and perhaps better rules) will OCD them into buying these sets as well. I think you are overestimating the amount of people who own everything.
There are different sorts of completionists. I am only a completionist in as much as I want everything I might want to play with. That is a long way from caring about the shade of grass and all of the gradations in between.
The way kickstarters work is the more you pledge the better the goodies you get. The lowest pledges might get nothing beyond their name being listed on the kickstarter website. But higher levels could include signed copies of tiles or free copies of reprints or exclusive preview copies of new expansions. The free reprint levels would attract those missing an expansion. I've basically got everything I care about though I would certainly contribute something whatever. However a new expansion would draw me in at higher levels.
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Well, I don't care about matching grass, new watermarks or any old expansion.
I want it for you available, so that would be the only reason to pledge.. But if there is nothing new in it. I'm sorry but then I really have my doubts I would want it.
What is the difficulty of adding 1 or 2 (fan)expansions just to please the entire community?
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If there was matching grass for the dark grass expansions (German things, festival, plague etc), I'd probably get it even with no new expansions. Things like different watermarks/boxes/editions etc are of no interest to me.
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If there was matching grass for the dark grass expansions (German things, festival, plague etc), I'd probably get it even with no new expansions. Things like different watermarks/boxes/editions etc are of no interest to me.
I would probably get it if they had different watermarks, but not if it was just different coloured grass! In their interest, they should change both to get the most money out of us as possible! ;D
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If I am being honest. I love Carcassonne. I have almost every boxed expansion from Z-Man games. Sadly I was never able to pick up Hills and Sheep. I kick myself to this day for letting that happen. Anyways, the idea of a Kickstarter, like Whaleyland, proposed is something I would absolutely be on board with. It wouldn't matter to me so much if the expansions would be bundled into boxes but more so just the fact that they would be available. Other than the 6 boxed 'mini-expansions' I do not have any of the smaller and rare expansions and I would love to have them all. Again, being honest, If this did ever come to fruition the prices would need to be fair otherwise that might be a problem. I mean I would only hope that this wouldn't be viewed as an opportunity to take advantage of everyone's desires.
Also, because of the CAR, it doesn't matter as much, but it would be nice if English rules were either provided by default or offered as an option. Also, I know some Kickstarter projects sometimes let backers add-on copies of other games or products made by the same people doing the Kickstarter. Perhaps, if possible, this would be a nice way to offer the boxed expansions like my missing Hills and Sheep, the Wheel of Fortune (which I am also missing, ;D) or (dare I even say it) the Catapult as add-ons. My only thought with that though is I'm not sure how minimums on their end would work. I mean I know they'd have to likely print a minimum number of tiles but do all those tiles have to be exactly the same or could they be different. Would the minimums be different depending on whether the tiles are all the same or different? I only wonder as that might determine if my add-on idea would even be possible.
Lastly, while I'm thinking about it, until they sold out, Z-Man games did offer the Festival (http://www.zmangames.com/store/p123/Carcassonne_mini-expansion%3A_The_Festival.html) and the School (http://www.zmangames.com/store/p124/Carcassonne_mini-expansion%3A_The_School.html) both directly from their website. So even though they NEVER advertised it Carcassonne fans could get both of those expansions in English.
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What country are you based? Hills and Sheep is still pretty available - I ordered BB5 a few days ago and HiG have it on their shop. I saw copies for sale in the US when I was there last September too.
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The School is available on the Cundco site (Mini expansion page) and so is Over Hill and Dale (Carcassonne Spinoffs)...in fact my version of Over Hill and Dale has been despatched by Cundco last week and I am looking forward to playing it this week.
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What country are you based? Hills and Sheep is still pretty available - I ordered BB5 a few days ago and HiG have it on their shop. I saw copies for sale in the US when I was there last September too.
I am based in the U.S. PA to be specific. I just checked the popular US gaming sites (Amazon.com, Coolstuffinc.com, and cardhaus.com) and none of them have Hills and Sheep in stock. Unrelated but further proof to Whaleyland's point of doing a Kickstarter is that I did just spot a nice copy of the rare The Tunnels expansion on ebay but the seller wants $40. Not saying that's a bad price for such a rare expansion but a kickstarter as suggested would hopefully make expansions just like The Tunnels available for a much more reasonable price.
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What country are you based? Hills and Sheep is still pretty available - I ordered BB5 a few days ago and HiG have it on their shop. I saw copies for sale in the US when I was there last September too.
I am based in the U.S. PA to be specific. I just checked the popular US gaming sites (Amazon.com, Coolstuffinc.com, and cardhaus.com) and none of them have Hills and Sheep in stock.
It's available from Cundco here: http://cundco.de/en/expansions/carcassonne/56/carcassonne-9.-erw.-schafe-und-huegel?c=44
If the international shipping was a problem then I'm sure you could find someone on the forums who would be willing to buy it locally and then send it to you themselves at a more reasonable rate?
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I am based in Maryland. I was able to find Hills and Sheep by calling every board game store within 20 miles. You can also try comic book shops as some of them sell games too. I scored a copy of Princess and Dragon a few weeks ago in a comic shop.