Carcassonne II opinion poll

[jungleboy]

I've become such a nut that I have made myself a storage box from my old android tablet box...

Can you post a picture of it in this thread?

[jungleboy]

I don't mind it, the horse has already left the barn.

That's an interesting (and probably smart) way to look at it. I think it's obvious now that Carcassonne II is here to stay. So we can either accept this and move on, or keep 'fighting' against it.

Personally, I'm very happy with my existing Carcassonne I collection so I know I'll get many more years of enjoyment out of it even if I never add anything else to it. So I can accept that Carcassonne II is here to stay, but I don't see any reason to buy any of it because there's nothing new so far. And even when something new finally does come, I'm still not sure I would be compelled to buy it unless I thought it was a really fantastic expansion - and I'm not sure a really fantastic large expansion is possible anymore. Hills and Sheep was fairly well received, but for me Abbey and Mayor was the last really good one.

So I think I'll just keep playing blissfully with Carcassonne I and its many expansions, and ignore the existence of Carcassonne II.

[mPony]

I am totaly okay with the new art style, though of course I would have changed it a little if I was involved in the design process.

Other users have said they thought the original tile style was looking "dated".  I can totally see where they are coming from.  The new tiles are more colourful.  (There sure is a lot more blue turrets, maybe a bit too much).  Also in the original version there were some tiles that confused new players by not lining up the walls correctly. 

The new edition was made to appeal to new players. We still have plenty of original edition games out there to play. 

[Decar]

Thanks mPony, some great observations of the current world of Carcassonne.

I think I'm going to start calling it Carcassonne: Summer Edition.

This was a cartoon I did a few months back to highlight the loss of our beloved grey-meeple.

[AlbinoAsian]

gosh I need to turn the contrast down on my monitor to not burn my retinas   

Thanks mPony, some great observations of the current world of Carcassonne.

I think I'm going to start calling it Carcassonne: Summer Edition.

This was a cartoon I did a few months back to highlight the loss of our beloved grey-meeple.

[hunnymonster]

As a newcomer to Carcassonne (first game was May 2015) and utterly hooked from my first game, in all honesty it was the gameplay that got me, not the artwork.

Having said that, I got Big Box 5 for my birthday in July and have purchased the other expansions (except Tower and Catapult) - all in the old artwork and they are great to look at.  I genuinely wouldn't want the new artwork.  My wife and I spotted it for the first time in a shop in Looe, Cornwall and both thought it hideous!

A friend of mine has just bought v2.0 and I kind of pity him.  2.0 seems childish in its artwork design.

Same here except I bought my BB5 on Dec 31. All the expansions I want (all the biggies except Catapult plus a few minis) I now have - or are en route to me... At least I think all the ones I want...

For me - I prefer the old artwork. If there was an expansion I wanted in the new artwork, I'd probably cave & buy it - but it would be a much harder sell to myself...

[Decar]

I promised to include an image with some of the design faults for Carcassonne:SE - In the image I talk about below, have a look at the cloister.  The top of the spire goes almost to the very top and middle of the tile.  This makes it look like the left hand and right hand sides of the tile are 2 separate farms - when they're not.  Another example of poor design is the junction below the city cap on the CRRR tile.  It is so close to the city, it is hard to tell at a distance what is going on, again the farm is encroached.

On another note:  I've created a small comparison of the 3 most common types of colourblindness.   
I'm by not an expert on the subject, and cannot pretend to be remotely knowledgeable on the subject.  Approximately, 12% of the male population has some degree of colourblindness, I'd be interested what their opinions are on the Carcassonne:SE artwork. 

There are tools which can be used to apply filters to images to 'mimic' the spectra, and allow 'normal sighted' people a chance to interpret how people with colourblindness would see tiles.

It's quite interesting to see how Carcassonne and Carcassonne:SE compare.

At the top is my original images and below 3 common filters applied.
Below:  Deuteranopia (common) , Protanopia (Rare) &  Tritanopia (Very Rare).

I recommend you download the rather large image (2.1MB) from here.

It's interesting to see how Carcassonne renders with the deuteranopia & protanopia filters.  It looks monotone.  On the close up images here that looks helpful, it's just like playing in black and white.  But when I looked at images of larger boards from BGG the whole board turns into a single colour wash.  I could imagine young children becoming confused or bored with the layout.

When the filters are applied to Carcassonne:SE - the blue roofs actually help cities stand out.  Roads are much sharper too.  Not shown here, pennants looks amazing, they pop out.  Having said that, road junctions still look a mess from a distance and cloister are not significantly different.

There are many different types and levels of colourblindness, and speaking as someone without colourblindness these filters can only give be a rough sense of what things would look like.  Also static images are very different to motion. 

I've applied a few more filters here if you're interested.

I've been using an application called 'Color Oracle' for the 1st image and 'Coblis' for the 2nd image.
Any game designers/artists reading this should consider using these tools before completing project artwork.

[Carcking]

So I think I'll just keep playing blissfully with Carcassonne I and its many expansions, and ignore the existence of Carcassonne II.

+1 to this jb. My sentiments exactly. 

[Christopher]

I promised to include an image with some of the design faults for Carcassonne:SE - In the image I talk about below, have a look at the cloister.  The top of the spire goes almost to the very top and middle of the tile.  This makes it look like the left hand and right hand sides of the tile are 2 separate farms - when they're not.  Another example of poor design is the junction below the city cap on the CRRR tile.  It is so close to the city, it is hard to tell at a distance what is going on, again the farm is encroached.

On another note:  I've created a small comparison of the 3 most common types of colourblindness.   
I'm by not an expert on the subject, and cannot pretend to be remotely knowledgeable on the subject.  Approximately, 12% of the male population has some degree of colourblindness, I'd be interested what their opinions are on the Carcassonne:SE artwork. 

There are tools which can be used to apply filters to images to 'mimic' the spectra, and allow 'normal sighted' people a chance to interpret how people with colourblindness would see tiles.

It's quite interesting to see how Carcassonne and Carcassonne:SE compare.

At the top is my original images and below 3 common filters applied.
Below:  Deuteranopia (common) , Protanopia (Rare) &  Tritanopia (Very Rare).

I recommend you download the rather large image (2.1MB) from here.

It's interesting to see how Carcassonne renders with the deuteranopia & protanopia filters.  It looks monotone.  On the close up images here that looks helpful, it's just like playing in black and white.  But when I looked at images of larger boards from BGG the whole board turns into a single colour wash.  I could imagine young children becoming confused or bored with the layout.

When the filters are applied to Carcassonne:SE - the blue roofs actually help cities stand out.  Roads are much sharper too.  Not shown here, pennants looks amazing, they pop out.  Having said that, road junctions still look a mess from a distance and cloister are not significantly different.

There are many different types and levels of colourblindness, and speaking as someone without colourblindness these filters can only give be a rough sense of what things would look like.  Also static images are very different to motion. 

I've applied a few more filters here if you're interested.

I've been using an application called 'Color Oracle' for the 1st image and 'Coblis' for the 2nd image.
Any game designers/artists reading this should consider using these tools before completing project artwork.

I've just had great fun using these filters! I am colourblind (one of the red/greens, Deutans or Protans) so the images all looked pretty much the same to me, filters or no.

I've never had any trouble playing Carcassonne (that I can remember), and looking at pictures of Carcassonne II (or Summer Edition) I haven't had any trouble so far. However, I would be interested in playing with II and seeing if I have any issues. Perhaps I'll buy it for that reason.

It is interesting to consider though. As I said, I've yet to have any problems with Carcassonne, but some games have given me trouble. I was playing Castles of the Mad King Ludwig a few weeks ago, and there were two room types that I just couldn't tell apart.

[Halfling]

I'm colour blind too.  I have trouble with red and green meeples and also blue/pink/purple in artificial light.    No problem in daylight though.  I always choose yellow or white when I play.  I could choose black, but never have.....don't know why!

I don't really understand what the Carcassonne II fuss is all about.  The game was presumably conceived to be something that made money.  It does that and some. 

The Winter edition is a rehash with a better tile distribution, but where is the outcry?

Carcassonne II has an extra meeple type and Gardens.

No one is forced to buy either.  I chose the winter edition at a great price, mine came with the gingerbread man incidentally.

My first decision point will be when either a big box or a 10th major expansion are produced.  Big boxes are good value and a 10th expansion, if only in the new design would be too much for me to resist, I'd have to have it.

I have the spiel 14 and 15 tiles and they really need to be played with the new design......perhaps I could buy the new version for a relative.  That could be a plan!!

Anyway I digress, if I had invented the game then I would think that after 15 years I may well look to reinvigorate it in some way.  Maybe through greed, but more likely because I'd be a creative person that needs to gave consistent outlets for my creativity.  Everything evolves.

Is there a step too far for Halfling....we've had double size tiles, triangular tiles and new designs and they are all fine for me, but if they messed with the type font on the box or the 'C' back of the tiles then even my patience could be tested.

[jungleboy]

The Winter edition is a rehash with a better tile distribution, but where is the outcry?

The Winter Edition is a spin-off game. It is not intended to replace the original game. Carcassonne II is intended to replace the original game.

Plus, although everyone has their own opinion, the artwork for the Winter Edition was generally received favourably while the artwork for Carcassonne II was generally not received favourably. In my opinion, the WE artwork added beautiful touches to the original artwork while Carcassonne II did not.

Carcassonne II has an extra meeple type and Gardens.

This is part of the problem, for several reasons.

Firstly, abbot and gardens have changed the base game, to the point where the world championship in 2015 was played with the new artwork but without abbots and gardens, a situation that strikes me as quite ridiculous.

The core of Carcassonne has always been that there are four claimable features. Even after many major and minor expansions, this basic aspect of the game has never changed, and the expansions that have been introduced have always complemented this, or added cloister-like features like Shrines, Abbeys, German Monasteries or German Castles. Suddenly there is a fifth claimable feature in the base game, but it's basically the same as one of the other four. So what's the point?

That leads me to my next point, which is that the abbot/gardens really add nothing to the game in terms of gameplay; I don't see it as anything more than a half-baked idea, most likely to try to get fans of the original game to buy it because of this new aspect, which I don't think has worked.

Thirdly, the gardens don't belong thematically and are oversized. 

No one is forced to buy either. 

No one is forced to buy either, but it's pretty clear now that new expansions will come in the new artwork, so if you want to continue your collection, you will be forced to buy this artwork. Thankfully, those of us lucky enough to have a (more or less) complete collection in the original artwork can keep playing that and be happy with what they have.

Anyway, just my opinion. Thanks for the discussion!

[danisthirty]

Firstly, abbot and gardens have changed the base game, to the point where the world championship in 2015 was played with the new artwork but without abbots and gardens, a situation that strikes me as quite ridiculous.

I disagree. Even though Abbots come with the base game now, they're still considered an expansion in the same way as The River is (which also comes bundled with the Carc 2.0 basegame). Hence why they didn't get used at the world championships (or the UK championships come to think of it, even though the Carc 2.0 tiles were used for some games).

[jungleboy]

Firstly, abbot and gardens have changed the base game, to the point where the world championship in 2015 was played with the new artwork but without abbots and gardens, a situation that strikes me as quite ridiculous.

I disagree. Even though Abbots come with the base game now, they're still considered an expansion in the same way as The River is (which also comes bundled with the Carc 2.0 basegame). Hence why they didn't get used at the world championships (or the UK championships come to think of it, even though the Carc 2.0 tiles were used for some games).

OK, so maybe I overstated it a bit. But I think you have understated it. Let's try to meet in the middle!

I don't think you can describe abbots/gardens as an expansion just like the River or any other expansion given how it has been incorporated into the base game. If the gardens only appeared on six (or however many) separate tiles, then of course, I'd completely agree with you.

As it is now, even if you choose not to play with the abbot, the gardens themselves are on the base game tiles and on tiles for other expansions. So at the very least, gardens encroach on the base game and the whole series more than any other expansion that's ever been released. And if you're not playing with the abbot, the gardens just take up room on the tiles and clutter everything up for no reason.

[danisthirty]

OK, I'll meet you in the middle...

If an expansion necessitates specific changes to the base game tiles, rather than just adding to them, then it's more than just a typical expansion. But this doesn't mean it's become part of the base game either, and the gardens are just as easily ignored as the blue roofs or anything else about the new artwork as the player wishes. Perhaps this is another case of mechanics over aesthetics but at the UK champs we just put the Abbots back in the box and played as normal. It didn't feel ridiculous at all!

[Halfling]

So, if the Winter Carcassonne had been the 'replacement' rather than a 'spin-off' it would've been ok because the artwork is well received and there are no gardens/abbots.  Thus Carcassonne II would not have been needed and everyone would be united in pleasant thoughts about the whole Carcassonne world.

That makes sense.  I'm happy now.