Quote from: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 06:25:23 PMYou said1, Castles are scored firstwhy? I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed”, so it is scored directly after a feature is completed, and thus it is scored before counting the points for any other feature.It's also based on the WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion."
You said1, Castles are scored firstwhy? I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.
Quote from: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 06:25:23 PMYou said 2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.That's right, ok for "as if he is the owner of the structure"Quote from: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 06:25:23 PMYou said2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churchesI think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle ownerCorrect, Darmstadt church bonus has to be moved to points C and D.So here's my corrected proposition:If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)
You said 2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.
You said2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churchesI think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle owner
2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tileFairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure) Following points are only if condition A isn't met:B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:Mage and Witch (for cities)Little BuildingsBathhouses (for roads and cities)Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)German Castles (for road and cities)Darmstadtium (for cities)Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:Darmstadt churchesNot watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tileRingmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:Darmstadt churchesWatchtowersRingmastersFairy 3-point bonusMarkets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)
3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)Cheers !
Hi corinthiens13I have not the RGG version.CAR7.4 page99 :The castle is only considered to have been completed when a structure (cloister, city, road, or another castle) which lies on at least one of the six adjacent tiles is completed.I think this rule is right.Not mention the castle score first,just completed at same time.You said:The WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. It is right,so I can choose castle later.You said:Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion.This rule may not mean castle score first.For example,city A and road B is in the vicinity of castle C,all belong to one player,all finished.Now you choose the order for receive points.It is permitted:A--C--B, or B--C--A, or C--A--B,or C--B--AIt is forbidden:A--B--C,or B--A--C ,because once you choose A,the castle C must after its score immediately. Maybe I am wrong because english is not my native language.If the exception is mean castle first ,I don’t understand the reason for make this rule.Do you know the reason?
You have to choose wisely, as you've seen above. No always the castle will work in your favor so the evaluation order can be important.
Just a note: Mage and Witch (for roads and cities)
1. You may place the ringmaster on a castle, but the rules didn't specify how to score in a fief. So far WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile.
Ringmasters and watchtowers are independent bonus by definition, so a castle will never get points from them.The other cases (Darmstadt churches, Fairy 3-point bonus and Markets of Leipzig for roads, cities and monasteries) work in a dual way:i. When associated to a meeple scoring the feature, the bonus is added to the feature scoring and therefore the castle gets the bonus points through the feature.ii. When associated to a meeple not scoring the feature, the independent bonus is not visible to the castle.I understand bullet (ii) is the case you consider in section D above. So with "meeples present on the feature" you mean meeples present but without majority, right? If so, this cannot apply to Markets of Leipzig for roads.
Hi Meepledrone,You said: C--A--B and C--B--A are invalid options.you are right.(if ABC belong to one player)I update my reply.Thank you very much.You said:The circus can trigger a castle scoring.Why?I think the circus is bonus for the follower in the castle ,it is not belong to castle scoring. A new circus tile trigger the circus bonus.
If at least one tile forming a castle is adjacent to the Big Top, a meeple in that castle will score points when a circus is scored.
You said:WICA is assuming ringmasters cannot score when placed on a castle as it is not placed on a specific tile. I don’t think so. For each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points. Six tiles are adjacent to the castle,so six tiles are adjacent to the ringmaster.when ringmaster is in the castle,for each Circus and Acrobat tile adjacent to the castle,score 2 points.If you think he get 0 bonus ,he will say:why ignore my ability?
Scenario 2.you think if red choose road resolve first ,the blue in castle must only score the road. It is not right.If all feature belong to one player,he can decide the order,if not,no player can decide others choose.In this case,road and city belong to red,castle belong to blue.Because blue is in the castle ,as if blue is also the owner of the road and city. CAR7.4 page 100Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.So blue in castle can decide which of them to receive points for. He can choose city score or road score as if he is the owner of the city and road.The rule write "each" player choose the order,it is not mean only one player choose the order and other player must follow it .Red get 2 point for road and 3 point for the follower next fairy.Blue in castle can decide to get the city score or the road score,but he can not get the fairy 3.
If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide what order they are scored. As always, you only score points for the first feature.
I agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.
Quote from: Meepledrone on August 26, 2019, 04:03:39 AMI agree with you this would be the logical approach but, unless HiG clarifies this case, it would be a house rule. I'm a bit conservative in this matter as HiG exploits in different ways the fact the the castle is not in a specific tile so the meeples in the castle cannot be affected by the dragon, the tower, the plague,... and there is no mention of interaction of the ringmaster with castles in the Exp. 10 rules.Maybe an approach that may fit the (incomplete) official rules could be :Any action affecting a specific tile (dragon, plague, tower, goldmines?, little buildings) do not interact with a meeple on a castle as he isn't on a specific tile
But for any action a meeple can do with adjacent tiles (ringmaster bonus, fruit trees, circus), a meeple on a castle may also have it but for the 6 adjacent tiles only
What do you think ?Cheers !
* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.
* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.
Hi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,I learn a lot from both of you.+1 merit for you.
Quote from: Meepledrone on August 27, 2019, 03:52:36 PM* Fruit actions are associated to the placement of a meeple on a new fruit-bearing tree tile or on a new tile adjacent to the tree tile. So I can't see a case where a meeple on a castle can comply with these requirements for its fief. Acrobats are a similar case.Well, I thought when placing a meeple on a castle, you can get fruits if a tree's on the 6 adjacent tiles.But on second thought, I realised you never really place a meeple on a castle, you place it on a small city tile and then you change it to a castle and move the meeple on the castle (both on the same turn, or on different turns if the meeple had been placed on the 1st half of the city). So fruits can be harvested if present on the 8 tiles adjacent to the city tile on which the meeple has been placed (or on the tile itself). As you said, the castle doesn't interact with this.
Quote from: Meepledrone on August 27, 2019, 03:52:36 PM* A circus scoring affects all meeples on the circus tile or on adjacent tiles. I understand that you would like to include any meeple in a castle overlapping any of the 9 tiles centered in the circus tile. I would rule out this option for the same reasons as the tower (to name one reference.)* The ringmaster on a castle could score its bonus on the castle fief as a house rule. The rules don't cover this case so I assume it is not officially considered as I commented earlier.To my point of view, those two actions are different than towers, dragon...etc as they are based on adjacent tiles and not on a specific tile. Tiles in a castle's fief may be considered as adjacent to the castle, and so the ringmaster may score its bonus, and a circus present on in a castle's fief completes the castle.
adjacent...For a castle, adjacent means on one of the two tiles on which the castle itself stand, the two to its left, or the two to its right: a total of six tile....
I know the official rules doesn't say anything about what tiles are considered adjacent to the castle, but I think saying a castle has a fief but no adjacent tiles is as much a house rule than saying the fief and adjacent tiles are the same 6 tiles (or do I miss something?).So to me:A castle isn't on a tile, so any actions affecting a specific tile doesn't affect the castleThe 6 tiles around the castle are considered adjacent to it (reason why a circus on those tiles triggers the castle's scoring) and so a ringmaster may have his bonus when scoring a castle (considering only the 6 adjacent tiles)What do you think ? Is there any contradiction I'm missing about this in the official rules?
Oh, and one of my previous post remained an open question about what points are counted:My proposition would be that the Castle's owner do only get points from the core structure (bullet b) and points that are linked to his own meeple (bullet C), but not any points linked to meeples present on the structure, even those with majority.
I think this may fit the official rules (to my knowledge) and it is easier to understand and to evaluate during the game. Because otherwise, if castle meeple may get bonus points linked to meeples with majority on the tile (leipzig, fairy, Darmstadt), it can lead to complex situation:Situation with (if I understood it correctly) your explanations :Road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, he gets the bonusIf red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonus, but if, for the same road and castle, the road isn't occupied when it's completed, blue doesn't have the same points as he doesn't get the bonusIf both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonus, and blue should get it twice but it's limited to once so he gets it only onceThis is, I think, too complicated and hard to understand for players that didn't hardly study the rules.Situation with my understanding of the rules:Same road scored in a castle's fief, red owns the road, blue owns the castle.If blue has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, blue gets the bonusIf red has a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, red gets the bonusIf both have a meeple on the road section of Leipzig, both red and blue get the bonusThey simply have bonuses linked to their own meeples, it's easier to understand, doesn't lead to different way of counting castle points if the triggering structure is occupied or not. The question is: Do the official rules contradicts this way of counting castle's points?
This would lead to this order of scoring a castle:If one or more features have been completed in a castle's fief, the castle's owner choses from which he gets points:1. The owner(s) (if there is one or more) of the feature scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)2. The castle is scored directly after the feature from which he gets points3. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tileFairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure) Following points are only if condition A isn't met:B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:Mage and Witch (for road and cities)Little BuildingsBathhouses (for roads and cities)Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)German Castles (for road and cities)Darmstadtium (for cities)Vineyards (for monastic buildings) C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:Darmstadt churchesNot watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tileNot ringmaster as the castle meeple isn't on a specific tile or including ringmaster but considering the 6 adjacent tiles, this has to be clarifiedFairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries) D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature (even the owner of the feature):Darmstadt churchesWatchtowersRingmastersFairy 3-point bonusMarkets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)Cheers !
Quote from: yezhenhan on August 30, 2019, 03:10:01 AMHi Meepledrone and corinthiens13,I learn a lot from both of you.+1 merit for you.Hi,I learned a lot from Meepledrone too
Bear also in mind that Fruit actions take place during the 2. Placing a Meeple phase while the placement of a meeple on the castle happens during the 3. Scoring phase. Thus the "timing" is not right even if you build the castle on the same tile as the meeple. In any case you would perform the Fruit action after placing the tile but before you place the castle and the meeple on it.
The rules do not define adjacency in these terms but the CAR does (check CAR v7.4, page 282):...I agree with you that the reasonable way to score a ringmaster on a castle is to take into account any meeple placed in the castle fief. My only consideration here is that this being a special case worth mentioning, neither the Expansion 8 rules nor the Expansion 10 rules dedicate a single sentence to this relevant case. If so, I suspect that HiG is not considering this interaction.I see this case in a similar way to the placement of a meeple on an unoccupied castle via a magic portal. It could be a reasonable extension of the rules (you may use the magic portal to claim an unoccupied uncompleted feature on a tile placed on this turn or any previous one - unless the feature is completed by the placement of the magic portal tile) but no rule or official clarification allows players to place a meeple on an unoccupied castle through a magic portal. So this possibility is ruled out.Thus, unless HiG clarifies the interaction, my interpretation is that ringmasters placed in castles do not get ringmaster points as a trade off for becoming a castle lord, although I see more than reasonable the adaptation of the scoring from 9-tile area to the 6-tile fief.I have searched the rules, CarcC and CarcF for a confirmation or denial of the ringmaster scoring with the ringmaster placed in a castle to no avail. If anyone can shed some light on this case. I would appreciate it.
All in all:* Red scores X points (core feature score + road bonus from Leipzig)* Blue scores X points the same points as Red for the road. Blue itself is not present on the road so no bonus points from Leipzig are possible.------My recommendation is to keep castle scoring as simple as possible:1. Tally the points for the feature triggering the castle scoring. - If several features and/or meeples are involved, pick the highest score for the feature/meeple combination.2. Score the points for all the players with majority on the feature picked - Any bonuses preceding the feature scoring should be performed first (watchtowers, Gingerbread Man,...) - These points do not affect castles - Any bonuses after the feature scoring should be performed last (ringmaster scoring,...) - These points do not affect castles3. Score the points foe the castle(s) involved. - Any bonuses affecting castle lords will be taken into consideration (Fairy)4. Proceed with the scoring of any other feature involved.
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