Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: danisthirty on January 06, 2015, 06:03:19 AM
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There are lots of Carcassonne strategy guides etc available on the internet but these are mostly very basic so I wondered how deep something like this might go.
Although it seems to be frowned upon by many Carcassonne players, I have always felt that tile-counting is an important skill if you want to be able to play competitively against strong opposition. I’ve learnt from experience what tiles exist and how many of them there are in the basic game, but I struggle to keep track of them throughout the game such that I could tell you what tiles are left in the bag at any point. I’m sure that the best players are able to do exactly this though, and what’s more they will almost certainly use this knowledge to determine how they place their tiles in order to maximise the probability of their features being completed (or ensuring that their opponents features aren’t). I have quite a mathematical mind so I’d be very interested in reading some of the theory behind how such decisions can be made, if indeed this is something that can be taught/ learnt rather than merely inspired by natural ability.
I wonder if anyone here would be interested in contributing towards a Carcassonne Central Strategy Guide or whether it would be too much effort for little reward?
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There's no doubt being aware of the number of remaining tiles is important. I consider it a core mechanic to the game. If you've ever asked:
I could really do with a such and such tile; you're at the first step...you're identifying importance. The next step is: identifying if other tiles for-fill the same need. You're on your way to determining a likelihood of that tile being pulled.
Most of these steps are obvious when told - the skill come from balancing them correctly.
I think there's definitely some benefit in a Strategy Guide, but I think the most benefit to a Strategy Guide would be in writing it!
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I wonder if anyone here would be interested in contributing towards a Carcassonne Central Strategy Guide or whether it would be too much effort for little reward?
If everyone contributes little pieces and 1 guys puts it nicely together we can have a nice guide without much effort!
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I wonder if anyone here would be interested in contributing towards a Carcassonne Central Strategy Guide or whether it would be too much effort for little reward?
If everyone contributes little pieces and 1 guys puts it nicely together we can have a nice guide without much effort!
I don't know how it would be best to put it together but my initial thinking is that a good starting point would be to identify some individual elements and then let people claim whatever's available if they're interested in contributing it. Completed elements could then be posted back to the forum and any additional tactics/ recommendations could be added by others and included in it wherever necessary. Then all the elements would be combined together into an overall strategy guide, with some editorial control being handed over to whoever compiles it all.
I don't know what these individual elements could be but I could easily grab some of my previously written thoughts regarding "trapping" tactics and post them here as an example?
Any thoughts?
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Any thoughts?
I don't know. :-\
It would be cool to have a strategy guide, for sure. But do we need to consider this within the wider context of what Carcassonne Central is and how a strategy guide would fit into that concept? By which I mean: if one of the main purposes of Carcassonne Central is holding competitions against each other - and it seems as though we are starting to head in that direction - should we have a uniform strategy guide that everyone can refer to and use in head-to-head matchups?
Also, if we have a good strategy guide, then maybe we will start destroying our real-life Carcassonne friends in our real-life games and then they won't want to be our friends anymore. :( Edit: Although we could also show the guide to them to improve their own play ... but then we're back at the same situation we would be here in the leagues, which could be everyone using the same strategy and the games becoming predictable.
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I had similar thoughts regarding what the impact of a strategy guide may be on the competitive side of things. My personal feeling was that I probably give enough of my secrets and preferred tactics away just by playing people and therefore that this wouldn't be too damaging! After all, you and many others know that I'll usually try to "trap" everyone else's meeples wherever possible just as I know that MrNumbers and Jere like to do the same.
I suppose it's a question of giving things away rather than letting others learn them for themselves from experience, but since it would in theory be a collaborative project it stands to reason that most people will retain their usual playing style without necessarily subscribing to the entire body of tactics suggested by the community as a whole.
EDIT: I should also add that although the tournaments and online play are increasingly becoming a feature of Carcassonne Central, I think the main draw will always be the CAR, the library of free fan-made expansions and these forums
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Also, if we have a good strategy guide, then maybe we will start destroying our real-life Carcassonne friends in our real-life games and then they won't want to be our friends anymore. :(
Regardless of Strategy Guides, I know I'll always be rubbish.
@danthirsty - I'd argue that sharing secrets will allow an expert to develop better skills when old tricks stop working. Hopefully, it would develop less experienced players so, overall the game play continues to be innovative and challenging.
But that's easy for me to say, I've got nothing to lose :p
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Also, if we have a good strategy guide, then maybe we will start destroying our real-life Carcassonne friends in our real-life games and then they won't want to be our friends anymore. :(
Regardless of Strategy Guides, I know I'll always be rubbish.
@danthirsty - I'd argue that sharing secrets will allow an expert to develop better skills when old tricks stop working. Hopefully, it would develop less experienced players so, overall the game play continues to be innovative and challenging.
But that's easy for me to say, I've got nothing to lose :p
You're not a rubbish player by any stretch of the imagination. You played an excellent game against jungleboy a few weeks ago and he's destroyed me on plenty of occasions! Whilst this in itself doesn't mean you're not "rubbish" per se, it does mean you're of a similar standard to the rest of us here i.e. not quite as good as MrNumbers and Carcking but not 100 miles away when the right tiles come up!
@danthirsty ::)
I suppose it depends on your definition of "secret". I can't think of anything I do that I would consider secret during a game of Carcassonne ( ;)) that wouldn't be fairly obvious to my opponent. Maybe I'm just more transparent than others though!
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I think a strategy guide is a good idea. I actually had a thought of putting something like this together some time ago, but it never got close enough to the top of the To-Do list to actually get done. However, I have collected a lot of the words and wisdom of various people here and on other websites (with appropriate attributions) into a doc file (or maybe more than 1). At this point it's not very organized other than some headers. It also may not all be wisdom, since there's a few of my own things in there, too. In any event, I'd be happy to email the files to whoever wants to be point person for the project (danisthirty?).
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I may not partake in certain strategies from such a guide - but I find it valuable to recognize that my opponent may be using some tactic that I otherwise would not have known about. I think that's the revelation that can come from such a resource - know thy opponent.
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I think with the amount of strategies, possibilities, and the changes in strategy per expansion makes it very hard to really become pro in every situation. and to know all of them..
And for friends, you can always play, below your REAL experience level ;) haha
I for one, are really interressted in a strategy guide, Not to make myself a ultimate pro, but that i get more tips..i think there really are too much strategies, (which makes it so intressting)
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OK, it seems like everyone who has responded so far is on board with a strategy guide, so I'll support it too. I just wanted to make sure we thought about it a little bit before rushing into it.
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@danthirsty ::)
I suppose it depends on your definition of "secret". I can't think of anything I do that I would consider secret during a game of Carcassonne ( ;)) that wouldn't be fairly obvious to my opponent. Maybe I'm just more transparent than others though!
You're too kind Dan, and I can't believe I typed that, because I honestly remember mistyping it and pressing backspace. Perhaps you are thirsty for something :p
Perhaps, strategy guide is the wrong term to use. I know as a newbie player there are a lot of variants and rules to take on board. I think such a project should start small, perhaps more of an 'introductory guide' to the strategy beyond the rules.
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OK, it seems like everyone who has responded so far is on board with a strategy guide, so I'll support it too. I just wanted to make sure we thought about it a little bit before rushing into it.
I think you were right to bring to light your reservations but I think with a game like Carcassonne there will always be enough room for judgement and the luck of the draw to make games interesting even if we do put together an ultimate and perfect strategy guide that everyone always wants to follow.
I'm very happy to take this on and go ahead with it, but if anyone else has any specific ideas they would like to discuss or particularly wants to make this their own then I'm not precious about it and am equally happy to let them run with it...?
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I think this project is a good idea.
One idea that comes to mind that should be covered is the mentality of maximizing your points versus minimizing the points of your opponents. There was a good article along these lines in one of Dan's newsletters.
With regards to some of the concerns expressed above, I think there are two types of strategies which can be covered in a strategy guide. The first type of strategies are those which are beneficial to everyone. The second type of strategies are those which only benefit a certain play-style. What I mean by this, is that there is more than one way to win. Some people are all about farming, other people are all about cities. What should your strategy be if you want to win with cities? What should your strategy be if somebody else wants to win with cities? Others might argue that you need to diversify your interests. How long should I wait until I start thinking about putting down farmers? How many followers should I keep available in case I draw a cloister?
I think a "complete" strategy guide should offer advice on multiple ways to win, not just a single "best" way, because I don't think there is only one best way.
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I think a "complete" strategy guide should offer advice on multiple ways to win, not just a single "best" way, because I don't think there is only one best way.
There isn't only 'one' way to win;p so there comes an advice in multiple ways:$
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Sure there is: score more points than any other player. :p
But I agree, I think it should primarily target skills and then focus on correctly balancing them.
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We have a pretty clean slate in front of us at the moment so I've come up with a few ideas just to get the ball rolling. If they're rubbish, please say so; I promise not to be offended! I'm certainly no obervet, but I'm prepared to help make this happen and if we can kick-start some sort of discussion over structure etc and what people want to see then it's all for the good!
So, my current thinking is that there should be a section of general skills and considerations followed by a section of more specific strategies and tips.
The general stuff will be more obvious to most of us but will still be very much worthwhile or indeed essential for any novice player looking to improve. This might include tips on managing your meeples sensibly, building features defensively, increasing the value of farms and knowing how and when best to attack your opponent's features. It might even make sense for this whole section to be split into three sub-sections so that attack, defence and general can all be dealt with individually, but this is just an initial thought and alternate suggestions are very much welcomed and encouraged!
The second section will be more specific for certain methods of play and favourite tricks (the ones we're willing to share anyway!) I am currently working on a short article on "Meeple Trapping" which I intend to share here as an example of the sort of thing this might include. I'm hoping that others will read it and then criticise it, add to it or point out any omissions before the edited and approved version is eventually included in the guide. If anyone else feels inspired to write about any of their favourite tips etc then please feel free to do so but post your intentions here before embarking on it so that we don't end up duplicating our efforts!
Some initial assumptions I've made to help me personally are that I'm writing specifically about head-to-head games using the basic 72 tiles. There is certainly room to include any/ all expansions in the guide but I'm going to treat this as "extra merit" once the core body of the guide can generally be considered complete. This doesn't mean everyone else has to work in the same way though. C:-)
Thoughts?
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Hello again.
As I mentioned earlier, I've written a relatively short but appropriately detailed article intended for the guide as an example of how I imagine our various strategies, tips and hints might be presented.
My intention is that we can butcher this about as required until we arrive at some sort of format that we're all happy with so please let me know your thoughts!
Meeple Trapping
What does "trapping my opponent's meeples" actually mean?
The act of "trapping" an opposing meeple refers to the practise of ensuring that the meeple will never be returned to its owner by placing a tile such that the feature to which it has been used to claim will never be completed (either because the tile required to do so doesn't exist or has already been placed elsewhere). This is particularly useful when the trapped meeple is a knight as this also ensures that the city will be scored at one point per tile/ pennant rather than the two points it would be worth if the city to which it belonged were to be completed.
The screenshot below shows three trapped meeples belonging to an awful AI opponent that deserved to have this done to it:
(http://www.dan.tehill.net/3_trapped_meeples.png)
How do I trap my opponent's meeples?
Trapping opposing meeples involves making "holes" in the emerging landscape that a) border a feature occupied by an opposing meeple and b) can never be filled. In order to succeed at this, you need to understand what combinations of features can be used to make such holes, and then work towards creating the hole before your opponent draws the tile required to fill it while this is still a possibility.
Here are some common combinations of features that don't exist within the basic game.
Any combination of: city, field, field, road
Any combination of: city, city, field, road
It may take two or three tile placements to trap an opposing meeple depending on the placement of the tile offering the feature claimed by the meeple you wish to trap. This is often what makes deciding whether it's worth trapping an opponent's meeple so difficult as there will almost always be an alternative use for the tile you need to set the trap. This means that your potential scoring capacity will probably be reduced, albeit only negligibly in most cases, but in others you may actually end up giving points away to your opponent in order to trap their meeple. So judge carefully but commit yourself to it if you decide to do go ahead.
1. (http://www.dan.tehill.net/1meepletrap.jpg) 2. (http://www.dan.tehill.net/2meepletrap.jpg)
1. Red appears to be off to a good start. Or is he? The city and the road form the first two sides of where our intended "hole" will be.
2. This purpose of this placement isn't immediately obvious. Nevertheless, it is required in order to surround where we want the hole to be, as will be revealed.
3. (http://www.dan.tehill.net/3meepletrap.jpg) 4. (http://www.dan.tehill.net/4meepletrap.jpg)
3. The t-junction is used here to make the third side of the "hole" a field. If it had been oriented in any other way, the third side of the "hole" would have been a road which would have made the hole considerably easier to fill.
4. This is the final nail in the coffin for red. Whilst the tile could have been oriented with either the city or a field facing into the hole, pointing the city towards the hole means that the city is uncompleteable and unextendable (neither of which are words).
In the example above, Red now has two meeples trapped. The knight is worth five points (two of which were a gift from you) while the thief is worth three points. Don't forget that although neither meeple will be returned to its owner, the value of the thief can still be extended until his road has been closed or blocked at the other end too.
Why should I trap my opponent's meeples?
Most importantly, because it reduces your opponent's scoring potential since he has less meeples left with which to claim emerging features. This causes him to be more cautious about placing meeples (assuming he has any left) and often results in certain features being left unclaimed. With a meeple in hand, these features can then be used to generate more points for yourself.
Furthermore, this means that if you and your opponent are competing for control of a game-deciding feature, you stand a better chance of out-competing your opponent if he has one meeple less than you. This advantage can be critical if you're both trying to win the same farm for example.
When should I trap my opponent's meeples?
Whenever the opportunity arises!
If possible, look to trap opposing meeples early in the game as this will have the biggest impact on your opponent's scoring potential. The more of the game they spend with fewer meeples available, the more of a chance you'll have to build up a winning lead over them.
If you can trap two or more meeples with the same missing tile then look to do this as quickly as possible. Good opportunities to do this are if your opponent places two or more monks adjacent to each other, or if you can direct a road claimed by your opponent into a city claimed by your opponent such that neither can be completed.
How can I reduce the possibility of my opponent trapping my meeples?
Firstly, bear in mind that having a trapped meeple isn't always the end of the world, especially if you can win some good points from it despite it being trapped, or if it's near the end of the game and you still have several meeples at your disposal. However, it is rarely ideal so consider the following points carefully:
Monks are very vulnerable to being trapped so think carefully before you claim any cloisters you may draw and make sure that any tiles required to complete them are relatively common (and available – the rrff tile is the most common in the basic set but if all nine of these have been placed it is no longer common in your game!) Be especially careful if you intend to place a cloister directly adjacent to another of your own cloisters (unless either is completed in doing so) as you are painting a bulls eye on yourself if you do!
Traps usually have to be set up (unless you play directly into one) so keep a close eye on every move that your opponent makes and ask yourself why they've made it. Be particularly suspicious of any tile placed that doesn't either generate points for your opponent and/or win them back a meeple. If you do spot an opportunity for your opponent to trap one or more of your meeples then the chances are that it hasn't come about by accident. Make it your priority to thwart this by placing a tile such that the hole created can be filled by a tile that remains to be played. Obviously you'll need to do this before your opponent completes their trapping of your meeple by ensuring that the hole can't be filled!
Final thoughts?
Trapped meeples are rarely worthless and will therefore contribute towards your opponent's final score. So whilst merely trapping an opposing meeple in an uncompletable feature is a good start, the value of that trapped meeple can still be increased up until the point that any open sides of the feature claimed have been closed off (i.e. that it can no longer be extended).
Sometimes you may trap a meeple of your own in the process of trapping one or more opposing meeples. For example, if your opponent is attacking a city that belongs to you and you can thwart this by trapping the attacking meeple on the adjacent city tile then it's likely that your city will never be completed. However, your own trapped meeple will be worth more than the opposing trapped meeple and consequently represents an advantage to you. This advantage may still be extended by continuing to extend your city if no better placement opportunities exist for subsequent tiles.
Trapping your opponent's meeples is often an effective strategy even if the trap you've placed isn't guaranteed to be permanent. The "rrrr" (crossroads) tile and the "cccc" (4-sided city) tile are rare in the basic game as there is only one instance of each. If you can set a trap such that your opponent depends on getting one of these as yet unplaced tiles in order to complete a particular feature or win control of a feature of yours, they have a 50/50 chance of drawing it. Even if they do eventually draw it and elude your trap on this occasion, any delay or inconvenience you've caused them in the process still represents an advantage to you up until that point.
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A really nice article danisthirty :(y)
A strategy guide would be awesome!
But maybe it's an idea to just start with a collection of the different strategy-articles published here on the forum in one pdf-file with a table of contents. I have myself really enjoyed the previous articles:
- Being Kind To Be Cruel
- Cloister Blocking - Why, When and How
- The Awesome Power of the Wagon
A collection of articles like this will be very useful for members like me, which are rather new to the forum. I am sure there are more articles like these in the forum that I have missed.
After a collection like this is completed it could be the next step to make it more streamlined. But in my humble opinion I think it would be easier to keep a collection of articles up to date, than a single document that is intended to cower it all.
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I totally support the collection-of-articles approach suggested by Darwin! There are so many possible and interconnected topics that I think trying to impose any type of strict organization in a single document would be difficult.
Perhaps a good solution would be a blog with several contributors? As new posts are added tags could be used to make groups of posts on particular subjects more easily discoverable. Some could be short tips and tricks posts while others might be longer, more in-depth articles (like danisthirty's meeple-trapping article). I'm not that familiar with the tools here on CarcassoneCentral, so I don't really know if it would work here or if another tool like WordPress would be better? I'll leave that to the veterans to discuss...
I actually set up my own blog for this at one point and have several topic ideas and a few draft posts, but never really published any. I'd really enjoy contributing to a community project like this.
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Also, Darwin -- could you please post the links for the articles you mentioned or otherwise point me to their location? I tried to find them here using the site search, but it didn't turn anything up...
Thanks!
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Also, Darwin -- could you please post the links for the articles you mentioned or otherwise point me to their location? I tried to find them here using the site search, but it didn't turn anything up...
Thanks!
With links to the articles:
- Being Kind To Be Cruel (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=924.msg10505#msg10505)
- Cloister Blocking - Why, When and How (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1015.msg11591#msg11591)
- The Awesome Power of the Wagon (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1110.msg13202#msg13202)
:green-meeple:
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Thx!
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Looks like a Brilliant article, I need to read it a few times before it all sinks in. Great work!
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Nice article Dan, but I wonder why you keep using Red in your examples? Hmmm? ;)
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Red rules! Don't knock it.
Anyway, it has been suggested to me that some of the Element of the Week articles be converted into full-blown strategy articles as well. I am not opposed to this idea, though I myself do not presently have the time to do any such task. I have Elements scheduled through to July (with possibly one or two more if Hans im Glück releases anything in the meantime) but all of the first six expansions have been discussed as of this Friday. I think there is definitely expansion strategies in some of those posts, so I'd recommend checking them out.
On that note, I must agree, though, that the base game is priority #1, followed by The River, since it's usually bundled with it. After that, I think the expansions could be included with a focus on the large expansions first in release order.
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This is a really useful topic.
The connections to the strategies in the Carcassonne News Letter is really helpful.
Also just did a bit of a google search.
The people over at Board Game Geek have also had a bit of a discussion.
It is here:-
strategy-guide (http://strategy-guide)
David Peterson is the main contributor, but others have put together some worthwhile comments.
Other places that talk about, and demonstrate, Carcassonne Strategies include:-
carcassonne-rules-and-strategy-guide.html (http://carcassonne-rules-and-strategy-guide.html) (you need to scroll down a bit)
strategy-carcassonne.html (http://strategy-carcassonne.html)
http://theforbiddenlimb.com/2013/12/27/carcassonne-strategy-primer/ (http://theforbiddenlimb.com/2013/12/27/carcassonne-strategy-primer/)
https://www.quora.com/Carcassonne-board-game/What-are-some-winning-strategies-in-Carcassone (https://www.quora.com/Carcassonne-board-game/What-are-some-winning-strategies-in-Carcassone)
This last one is really helpful as it is a slideshow presentation with great visuals.
Kind of like a tutorial.
http://www.slideshare.net/cazm/carcassonne-tips-tricks (http://www.slideshare.net/cazm/carcassonne-tips-tricks)
Everyone is going to have different views on the helpfulness of these pointers.
However I just wanted to demonstrate the point that a combined effort - perhaps using the genius talents from other sources outside Carcassonne Central (yes there is such a place!) - could produce a quality product.
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Excellent, lot's to respond to! :)
Firstly, I agree with Darwin's suggestion that we should simply start writing and building up our library of strategic guidance and tips. Definitely better to attempt to organise it all once we've got something to organise, so thanks for that.
I do quite like the idea of using a blog as a tool for helping to drive content generation but this would be a Carcassonne Central project so it would be better to try and keep it on Carcassonne Central if possible. There's no reason why we couldn't have a sub-forum somewhere if this idea takes off, and submit each contribution as a new post there. Anybody can post, and anybody can provide feedback.
I hadn't really thought much about the tips offered in the newsletters but these combined with some of the other strategy-minded posts made on the forums would be a good starting point and obervet has passed on some of his collected works in this area too. In addition to this, whaleyland has reminded us that there's a lot of good stuff in the "expansion of the week" posts so this would be another good source if somebody wanted to start mining through these?
My reservation with including bits from other strategy guides found on the internet is that I don't always find them very helpful. This is a personal thing, but much of the advice will be obvious to anyone who has played more than a handful of games, and a lot of the rest is questionable (in my opinion at least - or maybe I’m just being unnecessarily pedantic?). For example, a few of the writers seem to be under the impression that cloisters are like a golden ticket that mustn’t be wasted because of the potential for scoring points. I don’t agree with this as the risk of permanently losing a meeple is too great. I have problems with the assertion that you shouldn't place farmers too early either as I think this depends entirely on how the game develops. This isn't up to me though, nor should it be, so if anyone else disagrees with this then feel free to chime in now!
In short, I think that as a group of talented, dedicated Carcassonne players, we ought to be able to come up with some genuinely strong strategic advice that's rooted in tens of thousands of games worth of experience and hundreds of discussions that we've had purely about Carcassonne. Including anything else for the sake of it would just dilute this.
Please keep the discussion coming! :(y)
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My reservation with including bits from other strategy guides found on the internet is that I don't always find them very helpful. This is a personal thing, but much of the advice will be obvious to anyone who has played more than a handful of games, and a lot of the rest is questionable (in my opinion at least - or maybe I’m just being unnecessarily pedantic?).
Even having this advise as a "strategy" is good to know. I guess this means if you want to get the right advice you need to go to the most trusted source :)
It has been a good learning curve of a day.
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I'm certainly no obervet...
I would argue that this fact is worth many points in your favor. :D
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For example, a few of the writers seem to be under the impression that cloisters are like a golden ticket that mustn’t be wasted because of the potential for scoring points. I don’t agree with this as the risk of permanently losing a meeple is too great. I have problems with the assertion that you shouldn't place farmers too early either as I think this depends entirely on how the game develops. This isn't up to me though, nor should it be, so if anyone else disagrees with this then feel free to chime in now!
I agree! Even if a monk meeple doesn't get trapped or stranded until the end of the game, it often gets tied up for a significant time waiting for you to compete the cloister. In this case you often could have earned more points with it in the meantime on cities, roads, or even cloisters drawn later that can be placed with more tiles initially surrounding them (so you have a good chance to get them back quickly). I find this especially true in longer games with multiple expansions.
People will definitely disagree about strategies, but the discussion and ideas are almost always useful. I have also noticed that often apparent disagreements in strategy are really due more to incomplete descriptions of the conditions under which each person's strategy is useful/optimal rather than opposed viewpoints.
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My reservation with including bits from other strategy guides found on the internet is that I don't always find them very helpful. This is a personal thing, but much of the advice will be obvious to anyone who has played more than a handful of games, and a lot of the rest is questionable (in my opinion at least - or maybe I’m just being unnecessarily pedantic?). For example, a few of the writers seem to be under the impression that cloisters are like a golden ticket that mustn’t be wasted because of the potential for scoring points. I don’t agree with this as the risk of permanently losing a meeple is too great. I have problems with the assertion that you shouldn't place farmers too early either as I think this depends entirely on how the game develops. This isn't up to me though, nor should it be, so if anyone else disagrees with this then feel free to chime in now!
I think one of the great things about developing a collective strategy guide is that personal biases can get thrown out. For example, I frequently will play on a cloister if I get it, particularly if I think I can get 7+ points at the end scoring, even if I can't finish it off, as those points add up awfully fast. But I also like to play a field early, especially if I draw some good small-city tiles early on.
I don't think a strategy guide like this needs to contain a definitive "best" play for all situations. Rather, if someone writes an impassioned and well-reasoned article defending early field play and someone writes an impassioned and well-reasoned article explaining why early field play is a disaster, I don't see why both of those couldn't end up in a guide. Ditto for always playing a cloister/rarely playing a cloister, and lots of other things that I'm sure we all disagree about.
Might it be possible to make this a wiki that gets incorporated into CarcC? That way it could be more of a living document and also set up easy navigation across articles.
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@DLloyd09 - those are some very good points. :(y)
You're quite right that most of the time there isn't a proven "best" play for any given scenario and as such it's helpful to consider different viewpoints and a range of playing styles. Hopefully this is something we as a community can do well given that we're all capable of respectfully disagreeing with each other over certain tactics. However, whilst things needs to be balanced and unbiased, we don't want to be contradicting ourselves either so this is something to watch out for.
I think I would be happy as long as a) individual contributions have been written by the person contributing them (or people contributing them in the case of collaborations) and b) have been subject to the approval/ criticism of the Carcassonne Central community at large, otherwise we're effectively encouraging anyone to write/ find anything and add it to our combined pool of strategic knowledge without any kind of moderation!
Does this seem fair? C:-)
As for a wiki, I don't know much about those. It does seem like that may be something that's slightly further down the line than we're ready for at the moment though...
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I think "access control" seems fair; I certainly agree that it shouldn't be a free-for-all! I also think that the guide should not contradict itself per se, I just hope that our definition of "contradiction" is fluid enough to allow for multiple perspectives that might clash. :)
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The easiest thing I can think of is to do a Blogger blog and grant various members posting privileges. I don't think there is a limit to the number. I've been running a bunch of Blogger sites for years. They aren't super flexible but they get the job done and allow HTML tinkering in the posts, in case the default image posting options aren't good enough.
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I do quite like the idea of using a blog as a tool for helping to drive content generation but this would be a Carcassonne Central project so it would be better to try and keep it on Carcassonne Central if possible. There's no reason why we couldn't have a sub-forum somewhere if this idea takes off, and submit each contribution as a new post there. Anybody can post, and anybody can provide feedback.
I agree with Dan. I think the process should start here on the forums before moving into 'published' form, whether that be a blog or something else. The way I see the process going is:
1. Someone decides to write about, or is assigned, a certain topic related to strategy - let's say, 'To claim cloisters or not?'
2. That person starts a new thread in a sub-forum and posts their write-up.
3. Others in the community give feedback, opinions etc.
4. The original author eventually posts an edited version, taking the feedback into account.
5. If everyone is happy with it, it then moves into 'published' form.
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The way I see the process going is:
1. Someone decides to write about, or is assigned, a certain topic related to strategy - let's say, 'To claim cloisters or not?'
2. That person starts a new thread in a sub-forum and posts their write-up.
3. Others in the community give feedback, opinions etc.
4. The original author eventually posts an edited version, taking the feedback into account.
5. If everyone is happy with it, it then moves into 'published' form.
This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. The "published" form most likely being the blog in this case as a PDF or traditional document seems too static for something like this.
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I think the suggested process is a good one, but the only concern I have is with the transfer of the posts from the "reviewing" environment to the "publication" environment.
If the review is going to happen here on CC and the publication will be on a blogging site there will likely be extra time/effort that needs to be spent copying, re-uploading images (of which there are bound to be plenty), and possibly reformatting the post to clean it up (due to differences between the way CC and the blogging platform handle text/HTML). This will need to be done for every post, and will get tiresome quickly.
Most blogging sites have tools that support the suggested collaborative review process from start to finish. I'm familiar with WordPress, and it looks like Blogger has similar tools (https://support.google.com/blogger/answer/41440?hl=en&ref_topic=12454). Having the entire process happen on one site (I'd suggest the blogging site, which is optimized for authoring and sharing content articles whereas CC is a forum optimized for threaded discussions) would eliminate this extra work to re-publish the post after someone already worked hard on getting the images, formatting, etc. right the first time through. That way when the post is "done" the author or administrator just needs to flip a switch and it's published in the format everyone already reviewed.
Hope this is helpful!
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If the review is going to happen here on CC and the publication will be on a blogging site there will likely be extra time/effort that needs to be spent copying, re-uploading images (of which there are bound to be plenty), and possibly reformatting the post to clean it up (due to differences between the way CC and the blogging platform handle text/HTML). This will need to be done for every post, and will get tiresome quickly.
Most blogging sites have tools that support the suggested collaborative review process from start to finish. I'm familiar with WordPress, and it looks like Blogger has similar tools (https://support.google.com/blogger/answer/41440?hl=en&ref_topic=12454). Having the entire process happen on one site (I'd suggest the blogging site, which is optimized for authoring and sharing content articles whereas CC is a forum optimized for threaded discussions) would eliminate this extra work to re-publish the post after someone already worked hard on getting the images, formatting, etc. right the first time through. That way when the post is "done" the author or administrator just needs to flip a switch and it's published in the format everyone already reviewed.
Whilst I do appreciate your concerns, the content itself is what's most important to the guide and one way of making sure that each article is as accurate and thorough as it can be is by letting as many people as possible read it and post their thoughts so that they can be considered by the author. If we tried to do everything on the blog, the chances are that the potential proof-reading audience would be cut in half as most forum members won't think/ bother to dip onto the blog to see if there's anything new there as well as their daily/ weekly/ wheneverly trip around the forums.
If photos need to be included then they can be linked to or uploaded easily enough without having to go to too much trouble over formatting. On the forums, photos will be included to help readers understand any points being made rather than to look pretty. Once something is ready to be made live on the blog then it can be, but this work shouldn't be too laborious, or even if it is, it should at least be a one-off as it isn't necessary to spend much time arranging the formatting of articles on the forums.
What we need now is for people to start writing stuff! Think of something you can write about, post here what it's going to be and then write it. Post it back to the forums once it's finished (a new forum will soon be available specifically for this purpose) and then encourage others to read it and give you their feedback.
My next article is going to be a continuation of my "Being Kind to be Cruel" series where I focus on situations where it's better to give away a few points here and there in order to give yourself a longer-term strategic advantage. I would also like to contribute some sort of introduction to tile-counting, but if anyone else would be happy writing something like this then feel free to claim it! :)
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OK. Here are some topics I can tackle...
- Protecting your cities as you build
- Ways to join fields (or block your opponent from joining fields)
- Considering net points per tile in your strategy (e.g., is it better to build a new road or a road around your opponent's cloister?)
- Maximizing use of the Abbot (Carc 2.0)
- Carcassonne probability
Please let us know when the new forum is available!
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OK. Here are some topics I can tackle...
- Protecting your cities as you build
- Ways to join fields (or block your opponent from joining fields)
- Considering net points per tile in your strategy (e.g., is it better to build a new road or a road around your opponent's cloister?)
- Maximizing use of the Abbot (Carc 2.0)
- Carcassonne probability
Please let us know when the new forum is available!
Those sound like very interesting topics. I can't wait to read them!
I'm also going to cheat a bit by including old posts such as the one I posted specifically about tactics for games with more than one opponent. I think it's on General somewhere...
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I'm also going to cheat a bit by including old posts such as the one I posted specifically about tactics for games with more than one opponent. I think it's on General somewhere...
The tactics your talking about are here:- http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1060.msg12222#msg12222 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1060.msg12222#msg12222)
I've been reading through all the old posts and gathering various tactics and ideas and correlating them into a document.
This was a great help.
Also extremely helpful for general play were the sections in the Carcassonne Central News Letter (meeple blocking etc) and the comments in the Element of the Week series.
Can't wait to see the end product of this current collaborative project.
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The new forum (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1439) is now in place!
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I strongly believe that the forums are the best tool for a peer-review process. It has worked extremely well with expansions and variants, and I'm glad to see that it will be used for this as well.
I favor PDF for the published format; it matches our already-established business model. By summertime we should have a decent number of finished strategy articles to justify putting together the first version of a full-fledged strategy guide.
I agree that base game is a priority over expansions. River 1 makes sense as the first expansion to be included, and I would recommend proceeding in order of large expansion after that, followed by minis. I suspect that large expansions have a wider market share, since they are available at retailers. I think minis are more commonly found among enthusiasts.
I like the idea of approaching strategies from both offensive and defensive perspectives. Separating into general, offensive, and defensive categories may or may not work in practice. For example, when Carcinfool writes about joining fields, I suspect that it makes more sense to deal with the offensive and defensive perspectives one after the other, rather than having these in two separate sections of the final strategy guide. Might make more sense to group strategies by feature, so that strategies for fields/farms are grouped together.