Author Topic: Clarification of rules (Sending meeple to Carcassonne) - with HiG - 29 01 2021  (Read 2883 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Last Friday we got the following clarification from Johannes (HiG) on the HiG Discord server.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5028.0
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Sending a meeple to Carcassonne

[Q1.1] You can send a meeple to Carcassonne when you place a tile that triggers scorings for other players but you.
Does this condition consider only features or also all the bonuses associated to meeples on those features (fairy, ringmaster)? What about big top points?
For example, if you place a tile and someone else scores but you get the fairy points, can you send a meeple to Carcassonne?
The case with the big top is similar: You place a tile with a circus area and someone else scores, but you get points from the big top, maybe along with some other players.


[A1.1] It does consider all points you get out of scoring a feature (3. Scoring a feature in the rules). In some cases, you even get points if you are not scoring. (For example the 1 extra point from the fairy at the beginning of your turn is not considered).
But every other scorings, like the big top, acrobat pyramids, and so on are considered.




[Q1.2] So to summarize, in order to send a meeple to Carcassonne you cannot receive any points after placing a tile, no matter if it is a feature being scored or any bonus (shepherd, 3-point for the fairy, ringmaster), right?

[A1.2] Correct.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 12:23:20 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline NGC 54

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Prisoner ransom? You lose points (although it is said that you cannot receive points, but it is not said if you can lose points) but somebody else receives.
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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Prisoner ransom? You lose points (although it is said that you cannot receive points, but it is not said if you can lose points) but somebody else receives.
This is true, but those points get player not in his turn, in yours. And you can receive for example message only in your turn.
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Offline NGC 54

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Offline Meepledrone

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Not yet. Didn't have the opportunity to ask yet. That will be an easy one to solve.

So far we have covered 48 questions in my list (the answers covered several of them). I have 45 more valid questions to ask. But I also have other 30 we won't be able to ask.  :'(

Offline Bumsakalaka

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But I also have other 30 we won't be able to ask.  :'(

We will see. Because, by some good question we can find guidlines their current approach for rules by HiG.

Good example is: Will be points by Fruit Breating Fruits selling consider for receiving a message (Mini 2: Messages).
We will never get now regular answer because of rules between two minis.
But If we get answer to Mini 2: That every points are counted, or Only scoring defined in Phase 3 are counted - Due to Abbot.
Then we will have guidlines.

For this will be also good to reorder your questions and ask some which can solve possible future issues.

Offline corinthiens13

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The order of play states "If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne"

Based on the recent clarification, would it be correct to say "If you did not score any points from step 1c to 3c, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne" ?

Offline NGC 54

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The order of play states "If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne"

Based on the recent clarification, would it be correct to say "If you did not score any points from step 1c to 3c, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne" ?
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5016.msg74731;topicseen#new

Offline corinthiens13

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The order of play states "If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne"

Based on the recent clarification, would it be correct to say "If you did not score any points from step 1c to 3c, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne" ?
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5016.msg74731;topicseen#new

I know, but I wasn't sure if this question was part of the ones HiG is currently discussing on  :yellow-meeple:

Offline Meepledrone

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A per the clarification, it seems that you would have to consider all those points after the placement of the tile (Steps 1C-3C). Questions in my mind:
- This is very clean in general terms but the HiG rules mention scorings in 3. Scoring a feature. Should this be overridden? If so, the Wind Rose bonus, shepherd scoring, fruit actions would be considered.
- However, there are some scorings during your turn that are not triggered directly by the tile placement: removing your abbot or scoring an acrobat pyramid completed in a previous turn. Should be consider these scorings too?
- Finally, we have catapult points inStep 4A, that are induced by the placement of a fair tile. Should we ignore these? So far we are doing so the same as points obtained from a bazaars.

This response by HiG may be influenced by the fact they were assuming all scorings happen in Steps 3B-3C (including the abbot). So there is a loophole they were not taking into consideration... We are still stuck with the ripples of the first question regarding abbot removal and dragon movement...

This is why I'm keeping so many updates on hold: HiG have to agree and clarify when scorings happen during a turn when triggered in other phases than 3. Scoring a feature, the same as messages, robbers... They admitted the scorings before placing a tile happen immediately, but after that point... they have a little mess in their heads since our contact was assuming the phase chosen to explain an action indicated when the scoring happens... but this is not correct:

* The abbot scoring is explained in 3. Scoring a feature (referencing 2. Placing a meeple) but the turn summary in Big Box 6 states it happens in 2. Placing a meeple.

* The acrobat pyramid scoring is explained in 3. Scoring a feature (referencing 2. Placing a meeple) so it is a similar case to the abbot removal.

* The shepherd actions are explained in 1. Placing a tile (after extending a field) indicating it happens after the optional placement of a meeple, this is, at the end of 2. Placing a meeple.

* Fruit actions are explained in 2. Placing a meeple.

Mix all this with the misnumbered dragon movement phase.

Since they are busy, I will try to gather as much information as possible to show them all the friction points, overcoming the Prime Directive this way... So they make up their minds will all the info. Bear in mind that each footnote can be a potential friction point...  :o

The issue: too many moving parts...

Offline corinthiens13

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A per the clarification, it seems that you would have to consider all those points after the placement of the tile (Steps 1C-3C). Questions in my mind:
- This is very clean in general terms but the HiG rules mention scorings in 3. Scoring a feature. Should this be overridden? If so, the Wind Rose bonus, shepherd scoring, fruit actions would be considered.
- However, there are some scorings during your turn that are not triggered directly by the tile placement: removing your abbot or scoring an acrobat pyramid completed in a previous turn. Should be consider these scorings too?
- Finally, we have catapult points inStep 4A, that are induced by the placement of a fair tile. Should we ignore these? So far we are doing so the same as points obtained from a bazaars.

This response by HiG may be influenced by the fact they were assuming all scorings happen in Steps 3B-3C (including the abbot). So there is a loophole they were not taking into consideration... We are still stuck with the ripples of the first question regarding abbot removal and dragon movement...

This is why I'm keeping so many updates on hold: HiG have to agree and clarify when scorings happen during a turn when triggered in other phases than 3. Scoring a feature, the same as messages, robbers... They admitted the scorings before placing a tile happen immediately, but after that point... they have a little mess in their heads since our contact was assuming the phase chosen to explain an action indicated when the scoring happens... but this is not correct:

* The abbot scoring is explained in 3. Scoring a feature (referencing 2. Placing a meeple) but the turn summary in Big Box 6 states it happens in 2. Placing a meeple.

* The acrobat pyramid scoring is explained in 3. Scoring a feature (referencing 2. Placing a meeple) so it is a similar case to the abbot removal.

* The shepherd actions are explained in 1. Placing a tile (after extending a field) indicating it happens after the optional placement of a meeple, this is, at the end of 2. Placing a meeple.

* Fruit actions are explained in 2. Placing a meeple.

Mix all this with the misnumbered dragon movement phase.

Since they are busy, I will try to gather as much information as possible to show them all the friction points, overcoming the Prime Directive this way... So they make up their minds will all the info. Bear in mind that each footnote can be a potential friction point...  :o

The issue: too many moving parts...

Thanks for your work Meepledrone  :yellow-meeple:

I hope the final clarification are gonna end with simpler rules (eg scoring rounds for messages is really difficult to understand for new players).

Offline Meepledrone

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Yep. It complicates things a lot.

I told them I didn't have any issues in only one round of messages per turn (or turn part.... Oops!) but robbers cannot happen only once after 3. Scoring a feature... unless they decide that all scorings are delayed and done together in 3. Scoring a feature... but keep an eye on the dragon if figures triggering a scoring in 2. Placing a meeple are removed before the scoring actually happens)...

Offline Bumsakalaka

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I still hope, that we will find way how to communicate rules for solve rules issues between Mini - Mini or Mini - Large.
Maybe when we found edge issue, and tell to HiG how it we understand it, and how we want to solve. They'll answer that our approach is good/bad. Not only: No answer Mini-Mini or Mini-Large

Offline corinthiens13

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The best would be that they go to WICA's order of play and scoring during turn sequence, select all existing CII stuff (CII and CI together would be great, but for sure they won't do that) and verify / correct the whole.

Do they know how valuable those two pages are for players, even with only a few expansions? They just have to read them and correct them carefully, and we wouldn't have any issues left  8)
But I guess you did already try that Meepledrone?


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