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Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: Just a Bill on June 09, 2017, 10:28:56 AM

Title: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Just a Bill on June 09, 2017, 10:28:56 AM
Also there's been a terminology/category overhaul for the figures.

Here's the new structure, based on multiple careful readings of all the new English rulebooks. This may or may not be what they intended, but it does accurately reflect what they wrote.

Carcassonne II Figure Taxonomy

All the wooden bits (including towers and bridges) are termed figures1. There are now four categories of figures:

Meeples
      •   meeple
      •   ringmaster ("except that it cannot be used as an acrobat")

Figures that are used like meeples2 (but not actually meeples)
      •   abbot
      •   large meeple3
      •   mayor
      •   wagon

Special Figures4
      •   builder
      •   pig5
      •   Neutral Figures (sub-category)6
            •   fairy
            •   dragon7
            •   tower piece7
            •   bridge7

Undefined category8
      •   barn
      •   shepherd

Personally I find it overly complicated to have four categories where only two were needed. The exceptions are the exceptions; you need to discuss them regardless. But choosing not to group things logically only makes it harder to understand and remember some of the specific interactions.

Footnotes
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Mikeagan on June 09, 2017, 01:33:36 PM
I started playing the game after the switch to the new art.
After reading the manuals I have separated Figures into these categories

Also there's been a terminology/category overhaul for the figures.

Here is my understanding of the terminology (Taxonomy) [Carcassonne II]:

Figures:
      •  8 Meeples  (Only Figure that can be used as an acrobat) [E,C,POT]
      •  Abbot (Placed only on Monastery & Garden* with early scoring) [E,C]
      •  Large Meeple (worth 2 Meeples) [E,C,POT]
      •  Builder (Placed only on Cities & Roads, Cannot Claim Features) [E]
      •  Pig (Placed only on Fields, Cannot Claim Feature) [E]
      •  Mayor (Placed only on Cities, worth # of Coat of Arms) [E,C]
      •  Wagon (Placed anywhere except on Fields) [E,C]
      •  Barn (Placed only on Fields)
      •  Shepherd (Placed only on Fields) [E]
      •  Ringmaster [E,C,POT]
      •  Phantom**  (Placed as a 2nd Figure) [E,C,POT]

Neutral figures:
      •  Fairy (Protects Figures from Dragon)
      •  Dragon (Eats Figures)
      •  Tower Piece
      •  Count
      •  Bridge (Exclusive OR with Acrobats on a Acrobat Tile)

Neutral tokens:
      •  Castle (Protects Figures from Towers & Dragon)
      •  Sheep [E]

[E = Edible][C = Capturable][POT = can be Placed on Tower]
* Unique Feature only claimed by this Figure.
** I own the Phantom & although he is not technically in the New Art, I would place him here.

Some changes I noticed:
Features:
CarcassonneCarcassonne II
RoadsRoads
CitiesCities
CloistersMonasteries
FarmsFields
-Gardens
PennantsCoat of Arms

Roles of Figures:
CarcassonneCarcassonne II
ThiefsHighwayman
KnightsKnights
MonksMonks
FarmersFarmers
-Gardener
-Acrobat
PrisonersPrisoners
Tower CloserTower Closer

I have read parts of the CAR 7.4 to verify these categories.


Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 05, 2018, 04:48:14 AM
The figures in the Carcassonne world: Carcassonne - New Edition ( CC II) - Part I

All about the "meeple family"

The jobs of the Meeple:
A Meeple has many jobs to do in the Carcassonne world:
- Highwayman on roads (base game)
- Knight in cities (base game)
- Monk on monasteries/cloister (base game) and Abbey (5th expansion)
- Artist on a pyramide (10th expansion)
- Farmer on a farm/field (base game expansion)
- Prisoner (4th expansion)
- close the tower (4th expansion)
- go through the Magic Portal
- Flyer with the Flying Machins (Mini in the BigBox 6 - produced in 2017)
- Heretic on a cult place (6th expansion)
- Visit the City of Carcassonne (6th expansion)
and there are some more jobs to do....


Meeples:
- Meeple
- Big Meeple (not used as an Artist)
- Ringmaster (not used as an Artist)
- Phantom (the Phantom was published for the classical Carcassonne game, but it can also be used for the Carcassonne - New Edition)

The pyramide doesn't work with using the Big Meeple or the Ringmaster. That is the only reason why they can't be used as Artists.

Meeples with less functions (less jobs) as an normal Meeple:
- Abbot (placed only on monastery or garden or heretic place - with special scoring rule)
- Wagon (placed only on roads, cities, monasteries, heretic place - not on farms)
- Mayor (placed only in cities)

They can go into the City of Carcassonne, but not in all Sections of the City.
They can be prisoners but they can't close the tower.
They can use the magic portal, but they can only "land" onto places (features) what their rules allowed.
They can't work as an artist.
They can use the flying machine, but they can only "land" onto places (features) what their rules allowed.
The special figure Builder can be used with the Wagon and with the Mayor.

Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 05, 2018, 04:57:59 AM
The figures in the Carcassonne world: Carcassonne - New Edition ( CC II) - Part 2

Special figures:
The special figures have the colour of the players and are not meeple.

- Pig
- Builder
- Shepherd
- Barn

These can't be prisoners, and can't close the Tower. They can't go to the City of Carcassonne. They can't go through the magic portal and they also can't use the flying machines. But the dragon can eat the Pig, Builder and the Shepherd.

- Robber (work onto the scoring board)
- Woman Meeple/Messenger (scoring figure)
- 1 normal Meeple (scoring figure)

Neutral figures:
These figures have no players colours:
- Dragon
- Fairy
- Mage
- Witch
- Count of Carcassonne
- Bridge
- Tower pieces
- Big Top tent
- Big Pig (light pink - Wheel of Fortune - only CC I)

The Material in the Carcassonne world: Carcassonne - New Edition ( CC II)

Material wood:
- Ferries
- Gold pieces
- Die

Material cardboard:
- score board
- landscape tiles (normal tiles, start tile, the River, also the double size tiles)
- Abbey tiles (5.expansion)
- castles (8.expansion)
- sheep and whoolves chips (9.expansion)
- animal chips (10.expansion)
- Score tiles 50/100 (1.expansion)
- Tile Robber Baron and King (6.expansion)
- Chips Robber Baron and King (6.expansion)
- 2 Plates of City of Carcassonne (6.expansion)
- Goods tokens (2. expansion)
- 1 Plate Wheel of Fortune (only CC I)

other Material:
- bag (2.expansion)
- Tile Tower (4.expansion)
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: InTheDark on May 05, 2018, 05:10:08 AM
You seem to of forgotten the Big Top and the Animal Tokens(The ones with animal and a number on them)
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 05, 2018, 05:18:07 AM
You seem to of forgotten the Big Top and the Animal Tokens(The ones with animal and a number on them)
Ahh - thank you - I will update my postings.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: InTheDark on May 05, 2018, 08:06:39 AM
You seem to of forgotten the Big Top and the Animal Tokens(The ones with animal and a number on them)
Ahh - thank you - I will update my postings.
Just a couple of other things I've thought of; I think that Count, King & Robber comes with scoreboard tokens* (to keep track of how big the largest city /road was) as well as tiles (to keep track of who built the largest city/road)

*I think this might just be for Carc 2 (which is obviously the topic of this post)
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: InTheDark on May 05, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
Even More, Stuff I've Thought Of :)
Bag
Score tiles
Abbey tiles
2*3 City of Carcassonne tiles (two of)
Goods tokens

Things That Were Incorrect In Other Posts C:-)
Messanger (this was mentioned in Just a Bill's and kettlefish's posts as a woman meeple but is just called a "messenger" in the Big Box rules
Witch (spelt as "whitch" in kettlefish's post
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Just a Bill on May 05, 2018, 04:38:53 PM
Meeples:
- Meeple
- Big Meeple (not used as an Artist)
- Ringmaster (not used as an Artist)
- Phantom (the Phantom was published for the classical Carcassonne game, but it can also be used for the Carcassonne - New Edition)

According to the English rules, the Big Meeple is not actually a Meeple; it and other figures are defined as "figures that are used like meeples." Can you confirm whether this is a rules difference vs. the German rules?

EDIT: I looked up the German rules for Expansion 3 (where this is defined) and ran the paragraph through Google translate. Here are the comparisons:

English rules: All figures that are used like meeples (abbot, large meeple, mayor, and wagon) may be placed via the magic portal.

German rules: Figuren, die eine ähnliche Funktionen wie ein Meeple (Abt, großer Meeple, Bürgermeister oder Wagen) haben, dürfen den Zaubergang ebenfalls nutzen.

Google translation of German rules: Characters that have similar functions as a Meeple (Abbot, Great Meeple, Mayor, or Carriage) may also use the casting spell.

To my surprise, the German rules actually make a slightly wider separation ("similar functions" is a bit further from "used like"). In any case, this confirms (in both languages) that abbots, mayors, wagons, and big meeples are not meeples, but rather are figures that have similar functions as/are used like meeples.

I would have to assume that the Ringmaster, from the perspective of the English rules as written, would also be in the category of "non-meeples that are used like meeples," although it's not hard to assume that the Phantom could actually be a full-fledged Meeple.

Please note, I fully realize that the definition above may not make sense to some players. But I am not attempting to state what would make sense to me; I am only reporting what the rules actually say.

(If this was not the design intent, then perhaps the publishers may wish to consider issuing a correction?)
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 05, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
I know the German sentence, because I did the correction reading for the new edition. The Big Meeple is a meeple see page 24 from the BigBox 6 (published in 2017).

In the rule book of expansion 3 - I was happy that they put that sentence into the rule. There are no rule question, who can go through the magic portal.

The definition which figure is a meeple (follower in CC I), works with less functions like a normal meeple, special figures, neutral figures - all is the same in CC II like in CC I.

The rule for the Big Meeple (large meeple) is very clear in the first expansion: "Placement rules are the same as those for normal meeples."
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Just a Bill on May 05, 2018, 06:26:58 PM
The Big Meeple is a meeple see page 24 from the BigBox 6 (published in 2017).

Thank you for this reference, kettlefish. I did not have the BB6 rules available when I did my rules review last June. So it seems this definition was in fact clarified in 2017.

Does this mean that wagons, mayors, ringmasters, etc. are also officially Meeples? Or only big meeples and phantoms?
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 12:33:26 AM
At CarcF we have all the rules for the BigBoxes. There you will find the answers. In the classical Carcassonne the meeple was a follower (German: Gefolgsmann). Each BigBox has a list with the definition of the figures.

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewforum.php?f=73 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewforum.php?f=73)

Does this mean that wagons, mayors, ringmasters, etc. are also officially Meeples? Or only big meeples and phantoms?
Yes they are meeples, but look into my list above where I put the differences between meeples with almost full functions like the normal meeple and the others with less functions than the normal meeple.

On page 6 of the rule book for the 10th expansion you can see the text about the ringmaster.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 12:44:31 AM
Just a couple of other things I've thought of; I think that Count, King & Robber comes with scoreboard tokens* (to keep track of how big the largest city /road was) as well as tiles (to keep track of who built the largest city/road)

*I think this might just be for Carc 2 (which is obviously the topic of this post)
Thank you for this information. First I put only the pieces made from wood into my list. I have updated my list. Yes the list is for CC II.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 01:10:37 AM
Even More, Stuff I've Thought Of :)
Bag
Score tiles
Abbey tiles
2*3 City of Carcassonne tiles (two of)
Goods tokens

Things That Were Incorrect In Other Posts C:-)
Messanger (this was mentioned in Just a Bill's and kettlefish's posts as a woman meeple but is just called a "messenger" in the Big Box rules
Witch (spelt as "whitch" in kettlefish's post
Thanks again, I've put the information into my updated list.

In German is the figure for the mini a "Meeplefrau" = woman meeple. I am happy to have one woman in that game so for me it will be more a woman meeple than only a messenger.

I've corrected the witch.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: Just a bill - first posting in this topic
7. Only the fairy is actually defined in the rulebooks as both a "special figure" and a "neutral figure." The dragon, tower piece, and bridge are left undefined, but I list them here because their neutrality is obvious. Whether or not they were intended to be also "special figures" is uncertain, but if the fairy is our precedent then that would make the most sense. Thus here I am documenting not what was actually written but what (probably) must have been the intent. It would be advisable for the rulebooks to clean this up in future printings.
When I did the correction reading for the German rules - there were first also the text "special figure" - but with the correction is the correct form in the German rule "neutral figure". I think that the HiG publisher gaves the rules for translation to Z-man before we corrected that sentence in the German rules.

You can find the definition which figures are neutral figures  in the BigBoxes CC I.

The neutral figure:
- it has no a players colour
- it doesn't belong to the player start from the beginning of the game (dragon, fairy, mage, witch) or when the neutral figure is in play onto the landscape (tower piece, wooden bridge).
- a road with a bridge on it - each player can claim the road with a meeple even if he/she hasn't place the wooden bridge.
- a tower on the landscape can be used by all players (place more tower pieces or close the tower) - even if he/she hasn't place the first tower piece onto the tower base.

Quote from: Just a Bill - first posting in this topic
6. Here I am taking the texts for the fairy as a precedent-setter and assuming that all future neutral figures will also be special figures; thus my inference that this is a sub-category.
Neutral figures are never a sub-category of the special figures, because the neutral figures have no players colours.


Quote from: Just a Bill - first posting in this topic
5. Oddly, the pig has rules for where it deploys, but not how/when. This looks like a copy/paste/edit error from the CAR that missed some things and wasn't proofread.
The German rule stays clear that a pig can be placed onto a farm/field (German: Wiese=meadow) when there is still an own meeple onto that farm. That means that a meeple as a farmer was placed in a previous turn of that player.

Quote from: Just a Bill - first posting in this topic
4. This term is introduced in expansion 2 as a non-meeple category for the builder and pig. Unfortunately, it seems they forgot the term existed in later expansions when defining the dragon, barn, shepherd, etc.
You can find the definition of figures like the dragon, barn and the shepherd iin the BigBoxes CC I.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 06:25:43 AM
Shepherd:
The Shepherd is a special figure - see the rule for the 9th expansion (German rule - page 1 last sentence).
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Just a Bill on May 06, 2018, 06:27:29 AM
I think that the HiG publisher gaves the rules for translation to Z-man before we corrected that sentence in the German rules.

Thank you; that could explain why this and other things are not defined clearly in the English rules.

The German rule stays clear that a pig can be placed onto a farm/field (German: Wiese=meadow) when there is still an own meeple onto that farm. That means that a meeple as a farmer was placed in a previous turn of that player.

My point was that the English rules (at least) do not actually state when this can happen. Nowhere do they say that the pig must be placed instead of deploying a meeple (i.e., as a move-wood action), and they also do not use the word "deploy." They simply say that you place the pig onto a field occupied by your farmer (the Englush rules actually do not require that the farmer had to be placed on a previous turn). This could easily lead new players to think you can deploy a farmer and then place your pig with it. Of course, those of us who have played the game with the benefit of the CC-I rules know what the intention is, but the Englush rulebook for CC-II does not actually define this. This information is missing.

That's all I was trying to point out.

You can find the definition which figures are neutral figures  in the BigBoxes CC I.
...
You can find the definition of figures like the dragon, barn and the shepherd iin the BigBoxes CC I.

I understand how all these things are defined from the CC-I rules. My comments in this thread have been focused on how the CC-II rules have subtly changed how gameplay is defined. These changes may have been intentional or and/unintentional, and it sounds like at least one of them is a consequence of corrections not being given to Z-Man, but my focus has been to discuss the final result of the English rules that were actually published.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 06:33:35 AM
The rule for the 2nd expansion is not perfect in the original rule shet of the box.

We did the correction reading for the BigBox 6 (published in 2017), and there you will find the correct rule for the builder and the pig.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 06, 2018, 06:49:39 AM
The author is German, the first publisher HiG is from Germany. The english rule are from publishers who have only a license from HiG.

The CAR (CC I) based onto the original rules from the German publisher. In the footnotes are the differences what the English version have also the information about the rule change during all the years of Carcassonne also the clarification of rules.

How can I help with clarification of rules if you don't use the correct function of all the figures?
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Just a Bill on May 06, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
How can I help with clarification of rules if you don't use the correct function of all the figures?

I think we are having two different conversations here. Thank you for your help.

-Bill
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Decar on May 10, 2018, 01:41:15 AM
There are so many wooden bits; I treat each as their own.
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: Just a Bill on May 10, 2018, 06:19:48 AM
So reading through the English and German rules for Big Box 6 does indeed paint a better picture of the intended terminology for C-II than the earlier rulebooks did. It's good that HiG finally cleared some of these things up last year.

Unfortunately the English rules have additional mistakes and differences vs. the German. Some of these are just weird translation choices, like rendering Mistgabel as "rake" when it clearly means (and clearly looks like) a pitchfork. Two completely different tools, as any farmer or gardener will know.

Others are more gameplay-affecting, such as the rule on page 13 that you can only place your builder in a feature where you have a "normal meeple." Normal meeple is a game term consistently used to mean only the 7 pieces of wood you get from the base game; it purposely excludes the other meeples in the expansion sets, and is used in contexts where only an original base-game meeple applies. The German rules do not make this mistake (rough translation: "one of your own meeples must be located"), so according to BB6.DE you can place your builder next to a mayor, wagon, large follower, etc., but according to BB6.EN — as written, anyway — you cannot.

I would guess that either this is another case of corrections not being given to Z-Man, or else somebody at Z-Man thought they were making things more clear when in reality they were making them incorrect (I've seen this happen too many times over the years; non-editors trying to "improve" rules without proper editorial review).

However, there is a problem in both languages on page 24: They forbid the Abbot from using the Flying Machine, when we know it can, both from how the individual rules for the abbot and the flying machine are defined and also from the specific ruling on this point issued in 2015 (CAR footnote 384). Kettlefish, do you know if this was an intentional rules change in Big Box 6, or just an error?
Title: Re: Carcassonne II terminology
Post by: kettlefish on May 10, 2018, 07:38:33 AM
I have opened a new topic in the official rules section here at CarcC.

Here is the link to the topic: "CC II - Carcassonne New Edition - Differences in Rules"
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3950.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3950.0)

It is interesting, because there I have also find the wrong English BigBox rule with the builder.

I've looked into my handwritten sheeds from last year - I am missing the Abbot meeple there... - That was the base for my information to HiG.
But I have an Excel list (which I gave also HiG) - I have there the Abbot can go flying with the flying machine.
I will translate the excel list and make an update (it is from 2016).
There are all the players figures (players colours).

In the BigBox6 we remembered HiG to put the Abbot into the first row, but forgot to put the Abbot also in the second row (with the flying machines). The Abbot can only land onto a monastery/cloister and onto a garden (CAR footnote 385, from 03/2015).