Author Topic: Clarification of rules (peasant revolts - part 2) - with HiG - 12 01 2021  (Read 3094 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Hi all,

I had a brief exchange with Christof Tisch of HiG about some rules questions about The Peasant Revolts. This is a continuation of the questions discussed on this post:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4927.msg72670#msg72670

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Cheers!

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5015.0
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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[Q1.] Since a wagon can move, would it be possible to protect a wagon when placed on a feature other than a road, city or monastery?

[A1.] I do not see why not.



[Q2.] When moving an unprotected wagon, can it be protected? If so, should we pay 2 (wagon was already placed) or 4 points (new placement)? Would this be applicable to all players even if it is not their turn?

[A2.] You can protect only in your turn. So if you move the wagon in a turn of other players, you can not protect it. How much it costs, is written in the rules.

It should cost 2 points since the wagon was already placed.
It should cost 4 points, the same as a regular protection during a figure placement.



[Q3.] When using other placement methods (crop circles, meeple exchange with Exp. 7 - Seduction Token -or La Porxada by extension-)? If so, these would require 4 points for newly placed meeples and 2 points for meeples in play, right? Would this be applicable to all players even if it is not their turn?

[A3.] See above.



[Q4.] It makes no sense to protect meeples redeployed from the city of Carcassonne, right? I would say no as they are scored immediately.

[A4.] You are free to lower your score by that method :-). I also think, it makes no sense.

I agree. It should be allowed for the sake of consistency.



[Q5.] Moving a protected meeple to the city of Leipzig, would remove its protection (if any), since it cannot be applied later? Are meeples in the cities of Leipzig or Carcassonne affected by peasant revolts?

[A5.] As written in the rules, we do not give any official rules for the combination. As I see it, the Meeple in Carcassonne and Leipzig are not affected by the Peasants Revolts

Since these are special features not affected by peasant revolts, we may assume the protection, if any, can be discarded or maintained in special areas, since it has no effect.



[Q6.] If protected meeples are placed "lying down," how can you tell apart a meeple placed as a monk from a meeple placed as an abbot in a German monastery?

[A6.] If you play with the combination you could figure out a way to mark them.

We could place an unused token upside down (fruit, animal...) under the meeple placed as an abbot, for example.



EDIT: Updated comment about the cost of protecting a wagon when moved.
EDIT 2: Updated clarification on Carcassonne and Leipzig.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 04:56:48 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

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Oh my... Why... The rules'd have been so much simplier if we could protect a meeple only during 2. Placing a meeple phase...

Well, that's gonna add some lines on WICA!  ???

Offline Meepledrone

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Conclusions of these answers and the ones in the previous batch of responses:
* Meeples can be protected from peasant revolts...
   - when placed on any feature (direct placement, magic portal, flying machine, crop circle,...)
   - when moved to another feature (wagon movement, redeployment from Carcassonne, meeple exchange,...)
* You may protect a meeple even the feature it occupies is not affected by peasant revolts. It is up to the player to waste points.
* You may only protect during your turn (for example, if several wagons move after scoring several figures, only the active player can protect their wagon if required).
* Meeples lose their protection when returned to their owner's supply.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 12:54:15 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Oh my... Why... The rules'd have been so much simplier if we could protect a meeple only during 2. Placing a meeple phase...

Well, that's gonna add some lines on WICA!  ???

I discussed this with Andreas Kramer and Christof Tisch and the only restriction was that the active player is the only allowed to do it (if several meeples are moved/deployed due to other actions).

In my opinion, I would preferred to allow meeple protection in 2. Placing a meeple only, but this is what we got...  ???

Offline corinthiens13

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Oh my... Why... The rules'd have been so much simplier if we could protect a meeple only during 2. Placing a meeple phase...

Well, that's gonna add some lines on WICA!  ???

I discussed this with Andreas Kramer and Christof Tisch and the only restriction was that the active player is the only allowed to do it (if several meeples are moved/deployed due to other actions).

In my opinion, I would preferred to allow meeple protection in 2. Placing a meeple only, but this is what we got...  ???

They should hire you to create rules and manage interactions with other expansions !  :))

Well, I'm gonna correct my French order of play, just a few hours after I published the last version  ;D

Anyway, +1 merit for getting those clarifications, even if I do not like them  ;)

Offline Meepledrone

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Thanks, corinthiens13!

Sorry to give more work.  >:D



Offline Bumsakalaka

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Ok. For simplification:
If there is protected meeple on board, and it is moving - wagon/city of Carc/Leipzig/(etc) protection is not lost until figure is not returning to players supply.
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Offline corinthiens13

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Applying those rules to the French order of play brought me some questions:



[Q2.] When moving an unprotected wagon, can it be protected? If so, should we pay 2 (wagon was already placed) or 4 points (new placement)? Would this be applicable to all players even if it is not their turn?

[A2.] You can protect only in your turn. So if you move the wagon in a turn of other players, you can not protect it. How much it costs, is written in the rules.

It should cost 2 points since the wagon was already placed.



[Q3.] When using other placement methods (crop circles, meeple exchange with Exp. 7 - Seduction Token -or La Porxada by extension-)? If so, these would require 4 points for newly placed meeples and 2 points for meeples in play, right? Would this be applicable to all players even if it is not their turn?

[A3.] See above.



I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation that it should cost 2 points since the meeple was already in play, because:
  • Protecting a meeple for two points is only "Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed". Applying this action (and so its condition too) during the whole turn makes no sense (if I did place a meeple during step 2, why wouldn't I be able to protect the wagon I move in step 3  ??? (note that it's anyway not possible to place a new meeple in step 3, so applying that condition for step 3 only makes no sense either)), so this is applicable only during step 2, instead of placing a meeple.
  • The rule says "If you place a meeple on a tile, you may also protect this very meeple, for the cost of 4 points". The wagon, or meeple exchanged, were indeed already in play, but they still have just been placed (since they moved), and they of course have been placed on a tile, it doesn't matter if they were already on a tile before and not in the player's supply
  • Since the 2 points protection is for any meeple, applying it for wagon or exchanges would mean if I do not protect that meeple (wagon or meeple exchanged), then I'm allowed to protect any other meeple instead... Too easy  ??? It's only the 4 points protection that is specific to a single meeple (the one just placed) and doesn't allow to protect any other meeple

So it's only during step 2, instead of placing a meeple, that we may protect a meeple for 2 points. Other protections are always for 4 points.

What do you think?


Conclusions of these answers and the ones in the previous batch of responses:
* Meeples can be protected from peasant revolts...
   - when placed on any feature (direct placement, magic portal, flying machine, crop circle,...)
   - when moved to another feature (wagon movement, redeployment from Carcassonne, meeple exchange,...)
* You may protect a meeple even the feature it occupies is not affected by peasant revolts. It is up to the player to waste points.

What of farmers? The rule says "Farmers cannot be protected. They are never affected by peasant revolts.", but they may also be exchanged with la Porxada or the catapult... So:
  • Can we protect a farmer, despite the rules?
  • If answer to the first question is "no", what if a protected highwayman is exchanged with a farmer, does it stay protected?

Offline Meepledrone

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Applying those rules to the French order of play brought me some questions:



[Q2.] When moving an unprotected wagon, can it be protected? If so, should we pay 2 (wagon was already placed) or 4 points (new placement)? Would this be applicable to all players even if it is not their turn?

[A2.] You can protect only in your turn. So if you move the wagon in a turn of other players, you can not protect it. How much it costs, is written in the rules.

It should cost 2 points since the wagon was already placed.



[Q3.] When using other placement methods (crop circles, meeple exchange with Exp. 7 - Seduction Token -or La Porxada by extension-)? If so, these would require 4 points for newly placed meeples and 2 points for meeples in play, right? Would this be applicable to all players even if it is not their turn?

[A3.] See above.



I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation that it should cost 2 points since the meeple was already in play, because:
  • Protecting a meeple for two points is only "Each time you do not to place a meeple on the tile you just have placed". Applying this action (and so its condition too) during the whole turn makes no sense (if I did place a meeple during step 2, why wouldn't I be able to protect the wagon I move in step 3  ??? (note that it's anyway not possible to place a new meeple in step 3, so applying that condition for step 3 only makes no sense either)), so this is applicable only during step 2, instead of placing a meeple.
  • The rule says "If you place a meeple on a tile, you may also protect this very meeple, for the cost of 4 points". The wagon, or meeple exchanged, were indeed already in play, but they still have just been placed (since they moved), and they of course have been placed on a tile, it doesn't matter if they were already on a tile before and not in the player's supply
  • Since the 2 points protection is for any meeple, applying it for wagon or exchanges would mean if I do not protect that meeple (wagon or meeple exchanged), then I'm allowed to protect any other meeple instead... Too easy  ??? It's only the 4 points protection that is specific to a single meeple (the one just placed) and doesn't allow to protect any other meeple

So it's only during step 2, instead of placing a meeple, that we may protect a meeple for 2 points. Other protections are always for 4 points.

What do you think?

I agree. I was generalizing the applicability of the rule:

* Protecting meeples newly placed --> 4 points
* Protecting meeples already placed --> 2 points (including a wagon being moved, or a meeple on a tile being exchanged)

But if we assume protecting a meeple already placed can only happen in 2. Placing  a meeple, any meeple protected during its placement/movement would cost 4 points.

I will update my previous comment.

Conclusions of these answers and the ones in the previous batch of responses:
* Meeples can be protected from peasant revolts...
   - when placed on any feature (direct placement, magic portal, flying machine, crop circle,...)
   - when moved to another feature (wagon movement, redeployment from Carcassonne, meeple exchange,...)
* You may protect a meeple even the feature it occupies is not affected by peasant revolts. It is up to the player to waste points.

What of farmers? The rule says "Farmers cannot be protected. They are never affected by peasant revolts.", but they may also be exchanged with la Porxada or the catapult... So:
  • Can we protect a farmer, despite the rules?
  • If answer to the first question is "no", what if a protected highwayman is exchanged with a farmer, does it stay protected?

The rules indicate that you cannot protect farmers, but as per the clarifications, I would assume you can protect farmers if you want, but it is just a waste of points unless you have an agenda for that farmer.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Clarification of rules (peasant revolts - part 2) - with HiG - 12 01 2021
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 01:32:25 PM »
Thanks for the time you spend to clarify those rules ;)  :(y)

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Clarification of rules (peasant revolts - part 2) - with HiG - 12 01 2021
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 11:47:26 PM »
The rules indicate that you cannot protect farmers, but as per the clarifications, I would assume you can protect farmers if you want, but it is just a waste of points unless you have an agenda for that farmer.

Since meeples keep their protection when they are moved or exchanged, it could be worthwile to keep the protection of an exchanged farmer (farmers can only get protection by an exchange, I suppose)  as he might be exchanged again, for instance while playing the catapult expansion.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (peasant revolts - part 2) - with HiG - 12 01 2021
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 12:13:35 AM »
I would keep all the options open when playing with expansions that add extra mechanics to deploy meeples (movement, exchanges...). It is up to a player's judgement to decide if it is worth spending 4 points in protecting a meeple.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification of rules (peasant revolts - part 2) - with HiG - 12 01 2021
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 12:51:15 AM »
But farmers notnneed to be protected, right? None of revolt are against farmers because "farmers" are revolvers, right?

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Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Clarification of rules (peasant revolts - part 2) - with HiG - 12 01 2021
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 12:58:44 AM »
But farmers notnneed to be protected, right? None of revolt are against farmers because "farmers" are revolvers, right?

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He does not need, as long as he can only be a farmer. But with La Porxada or Catapult, a farmer could be exchanged with a meeple on a city, road or monastery...

House rule:
If a farmer is exchanged with a meeple on a feature (with la Porxada or Catapult), he is automatically protected as he was a farmer  :))


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