Author Topic: Doubt about the bazaar.  (Read 2268 times)

Offline DanieleManetto

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Doubt about the bazaar.
« on: January 19, 2021, 11:31:12 PM »

When you proceed with a bazaar and the selected tiles contain one or more bazaars, do these tiles not take effect immediately (but at the end of the bazaar do you start with the next bazaars?) Or do they have no effect even when the bazaar is completed.
Thanks

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2021, 12:31:21 AM »
There are two cases:
* If a player purchased a bazaar tile during an auction, the new bazaar will be ignored when the tile is placed. Any ignored bazaars will never take place.
* If a player draws an additional bazaar tile during the bazaar round, for example, due to a double turn, this new bazaar will be delayed until the bazaar round is completed, that is, until all the players have placed their purchased tiles. At that point, any delayed bazaars will take place in a sequence before resuming the normal game sequence.

Check this clarification for more details:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Bazaar_2

Note: This is a revision of the equivalent clarification in the CAR (footnote #283), since interaction between bazaars and double turns was mistranslated (notified by HiG in 8/2016 and confirmed in the Exp. 8 rules of the new edition).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 03:31:20 AM by Meepledrone »
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Offline DanieleManetto

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 03:14:24 AM »
The first case is clear.
The second case I do not understand. What is meant by second round?
Can you please give me a couple of practical examples?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 04:19:49 AM »
Each bazaar entails a bazaar round where players place their purchased tiles at the auction. Hope this example clarifies how all this works.

Here you are an example that illustrates all the cases: Let's assume a game with 3 players A, B and C. A places a bazaar tile that grants him a double turn, so the bazaar takes place before the second part of this turn. During the bazaar round, C gets a double turn that triggers a delayed bazaar. Both bazaar rounds, the original one and the delayed one, take place half way A's initial turn... And you can see A performs two nested double turns (Don't let your head spin...  ;))

1. A places a bazaar tile extending a rad with his builder. He is granted a double turn, but before performing the second part of his double turn, the bazaar has to be resolved.

2. A hosts an auction and each player gets a purchased tile

The bazaar round starts, where each player places their purchased tile.

3. B places his purchased tile. It was another bazaar tile, but the bazaar is ingored at this point.
4. C places her purchased tile but she extends a city with her builder and is granted a double turn.
5. C draws a new tile for the second part of her double turn and it is another bazaar tile. She places the tile but this bazaar is delayed.
6. A places his purchased tile.

The bazaar round is completed, so the delayed bazaar is now taken care of:

7. C hosts an auction and each player gets a purchased tile

A new bazaar round starts, where each player places their purchased tile.

8. A places his purchased tile and extends a road with his builder.
9. A draws and places a new tile for the second part of his double turn during this bazaar round. He extends the same road with his builder, but it has no effect. He was already performing a double turn.
10. B places his purchased tile.
11. C places her purchased tile.


The new bazaar round is completed, so the normal game is resumed, starting by A completing his double turn:

12. A draws and places a new tile for the second part of his double turn triggered by his original initial bazaar tile.

Once A has finished his original turn, B becomes the active player:

13. B draws and places a new tile as usual.


Keeping track whose turn it is in this case can become an ordeal...

I know this is a rare case. Personally, I would prefer any bazaar tiles drawn during a bazaar round were also ignored, but this is what the clarification says...

Offline DanieleManetto

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 08:19:53 AM »
Maybe I'm starting to understand ...
At the beginning, when A draws the first bazaar tile, does he place it, then deploy a possible meeple, count the points and then start the first auction? And when the auction is over, do you take a double shift thanks to the builder ?

If B or A still draws a bazaz during C's delayed auction, what happens? Is there a third auction?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 08:21:53 AM by DanieleManetto »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 08:28:51 AM »
Maybe I'm starting to understand ...

 :(y)

At the beginning, when A draws the first bazaar tile, does he place it, then deploy a possible meeple, count the points and then start the first auction?

Yes, the bazaar tile follows a regular turn, but at the end of the turn (or the first part of the turn if you were granted a double turn) you celebrate the auction...

And when the auction is over, do you take a double shift thanks to the builder ?

Correct. This was wrng in the CAR. It was written that the auction would take place at the end of the double turn.

If B or A still draws a bazaz during C's delayed auction, what happens? Is there a third auction?

Yes. It would be a mess, but this is what the clarifications states. The bazaar tile would have to be drawn and placed in the second part of a double turn.

Remember that if you draw a bazaar tile but you cannot place it, the bazaar does not take place.

Offline DanieleManetto

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 09:10:12 AM »
It is quite a difficult rule to apply correctly and it is especially difficult to explain to other players, but I understand how it works. Whenever I play I should read this post to play well in the bazaar. Thank you very much

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 09:36:25 AM »
You are welcome...

I think allowing delayed bazaars is an overkill.  :o

It's a rare case but it can stall the flow of the game if things get complicated. Keeping track of these nested rounds can also be quite a challenge.

Offline DIN0

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 10:04:18 AM »
Suggestion: In the original rules there are two variants for Bazaars (1) the full bidding rules, (2) the quick rules.

Whenever we play with Bazaars (not often) we use a house-ruled mixture of these two. Normally use the short version as to not stall the game. However, anyone can initiate the full bidding if there are tiles they are very interested in. We would use full rules in such case.
Like this, you always have that strategic option without stalling 90% of time  :(y)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 10:30:08 AM »
Sounds cool! Thanks!

One question: Is the active player the only one deciding the switching of rules, or can any player suggest that and then it applied automatically?

I would like to include this as a house rule in WICA.  :(y) :(y)

EDIT: Added question.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 10:36:36 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline DIN0

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2021, 11:06:17 AM »
Sounds cool! Thanks!

One question: Is the active player the only one deciding the switching of rules, or can any player suggest that and then it applied automatically?

I would like to include this as a house rule in WICA.  :(y) :(y)

EDIT: Added question.
Thanks! Any player interested in a specific tile can initiate switching of rules, not just the active player. This gives equal opportunity to all players during each Bazaar activation. The entire bidding is then resolved according to full rules for that Bazaar.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 11:08:22 AM by tp10053 »

Offline NGC 54

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2021, 11:45:41 AM »
Are these examples correct?

1st example

The turn order is You, Blue and Black. You are the red player.

You draw a bazaar tile and place it normally. After Your turn is complete, You draw 3 tiles for the auction.

1. Blue chooses one of the tiles and bids 2 points. Black bids 3 points, and You pass. Because Black is the highest bidder, and Blue still wants the tile, he or she buys it from Black by losing 3 points, while Black gains 3 points.

2. Black chooses the next tile, and bids 2 points. You bid 3 points, and Black decides to sell You the tile. You lose 3 points and Black gains 3 points.

3. There is only one tile left, which Black takes for free. Starting with Blue, each player places his or her tile normally.

2nd example

The turn order is You, Blue and Black. You are the red player.

You draw a bazaar tile and place it normally. After Your turn is complete, You draw 3 tiles for the auction.

1. Blue chooses one of the tiles and bids 2 points. Black bids 3 points, and You pass. Blue decides to sell the tile to Black. Blue gains 2 points and Black loses 3 points.

2. You choose the next tile, and You bid 2 points. Blue bids 3 points, and You decide to buy the tile from Blue. You lose 3 points and Blue gains 3 points.

3. There is only one tile left, which Blue takes for free. Starting with Blue, each player places his or her tile normally.

3rd example

The turn order is You, Blue, Green and Black. You are the red player.

You draw a bazaar tile and place it normally. After Your turn is complete, You draw 3 tiles for the auction.

1. Blue chooses one of the tiles and bids 2 points. Black bids 3 points, Green passes and You pass. Blue decides to sell the tile to Black. Blue gains 2 points and Black loses 3 points.

2. Green chooses the next tile. You pass, and Blue bids 2 points. Green decides to sell the tile to Blue. Green gains 2 points and Blue loses 3 points.

3. You choose the next tile, and You bid 2 points. Green passes. You lose 2 points.

4. There is only one tile left, which Green takes for free. Starting with Blue, each player places his or her tile normally.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 12:18:48 PM by Carcassonne93 »
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Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2021, 12:34:43 AM »
Corrections in purple

Are these examples correct?

1st example

The turn order is You, Blue and Black. You are the red player.

You draw a bazaar tile and place it normally. After Your turn is complete, You draw 3 tiles for the auction.

1. Blue chooses one of the tiles and bids 2 points. Black bids 3 points, and You pass. Because Black is the highest bidder, and Blue still wants the tile, he or she buys it from Black by losing 3 points, while Black gains 3 points.

2. Black chooses the next tile, and bids 2 points. You bid 3 points, and Black decides to sell You the tile. You lose 3 points and Black gains 3 points.

3. There is only one tile left, which Black takes for free. Starting with Blue, each player places his or her tile normally.

2nd example

The turn order is You, Blue and Black. You are the red player.

You draw a bazaar tile and place it normally. After Your turn is complete, You draw 3 tiles for the auction.

1. Blue chooses one of the tiles and bids 2 points. Black bids 3 points, and You pass. Blue decides to sell the tile to Black. Blue gains 3 points and Black loses 3 points.

2. You choose the next tile, and You bid 2 points. Blue bids 3 points, and You decide to buy the tile from Blue. You lose 3 points and Blue gains 3 points.

3. There is only one tile left, which Blue takes for free. Starting with Blue, each player places his or her tile normally.

3rd example

The turn order is You, Blue, Green and Black. You are the red player.

You draw a bazaar tile and place it normally. After Your turn is complete, You draw 3 tiles for the auction.

1. Blue chooses one of the tiles and bids 2 points. Black bids 3 points, Green passes and You pass. Blue decides to sell the tile to Black. Blue gains 3 points and Black loses 3 points.

2. Green chooses the next tile. You pass, and Blue bids 2 points. Green decides to sell the tile to Blue. Green gains 2 points and Blue loses 2 points.

3. You choose the next tile, and You bid 2 points. Green passes. You lose 2 points.

4. There is only one tile left, which Green takes for free. Starting with Blue, each player places his or her tile normally.

Offline NGC 54

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2021, 04:11:09 AM »
I did not paid very much attention to the paid points, I only wanted to know if I understand ref 24: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-24. Thanks!

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Doubt about the bazaar.
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2021, 05:25:24 AM »
I did not paid very much attention to the paid points, I only wanted to know if I understand ref 24: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-24. Thanks!

I didn't pay attention to that as I was not aware that there were existing different rules  ;D

I always play according to the rule that you always (re)start with the first player following the player that placed the bazaar tile and has not bought an auctioned tile yet.
That means in example 1 for instance that in auction round 2 Blue chooses again an auctioned tile as he didn't buy one in the first auction round.


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