Author Topic: Order of play in french  (Read 30354 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2019, 07:36:11 AM »
Well, the C1 labyrinth's green color seems closer to C2's green than the C2 labyrinth. Maybe it is just me.  ;)
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2019, 02:41:17 AM »
Hi corinthiens13,

I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Just wanted to give you a heads-up so you could update the Order of Play accordingly.

I already updated WICA: Markets of Leipzig and Order of Play.

Cheers!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2019, 12:09:01 AM »
I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Hi,

Thanks for the information. I looked at the scoring (during and at the end of the game) on WICA and I wasn't sure how to interpret it.

So market of Leipzig are, for every quarters, scored at the end of the feature's scoring (so they aren't reduced by the witch for example). But are they still part of the structure's points for wainwright and tanner's quarter (can be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or castle), and separate of the structure's points for the bookbinders and coiners quarter (can't be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or a castle) ?

Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2019, 12:36:29 AM »
I got a comment from yezhenhan thanks to the quiz where he pointed out a misinterpretation of the scoring for roads in Markets of Leipzig. In the end, all the points provided by Markets of Leipzig are bonus points and they are applied at the end.

Hi,

Thanks for the information. I looked at the scoring (during and at the end of the game) on WICA and I wasn't sure how to interpret it.

Hi there!

Let's see...

So market of Leipzig are, for every quarters, scored at the end of the feature's scoring (so they aren't reduced by the witch for example).

Correct.

But are they still part of the structure's points for wainwright and tanner's quarter (can be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or castle), and separate of the structure's points for the bookbinders and coiners quarter (can't be robbed together with the structure's points by a robber or a castle) ?

Cheers!

They will part of the structure points for those players scoring the feature and also getting the bonus. So castles and robbers may steal from these points.


It is just a bonus for the other players getting the bonus without scoring the feature. So only robbers may steal from these points. Castles have no visibility of these bonus points.

Hope this clarifies the issue.

Cheers!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2019, 12:11:57 AM »
Hi,

Thanks, so I updated the French rules and corrected the Market of Leipzig's scoring.

And just to be sure, if player A scores a town with 4 tiles (8 points), 3 pennants (+6 points) and a meeple on the coiner quarter (+ 3 points / pennant, so + 9 points), he gets 23 points. If player b has a robber beside player A's point meeple, player B gets half of all those points, including those coming from the market of Leipzig, so player B gets 12 points from his robber. And if player A has a castle next to his town, he gets twice 23 points, so 46 points. Correct ?

Cheers !

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2019, 05:04:30 AM »
Correct!  :(y)

I cannot add anything but congratulate you for such a small city with so many pennants.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 05:06:21 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2019, 04:45:21 PM »
It is not clearly what is feature score.
Our family rule is easy remember.
It is feature score if you get it due to your follower normal condition(majority).
It is not feature score if you get it due to your follower special condition(not majority) .
Not belong to feature score: Darmstadt church 3 points(due to number of follower), Leipzig(due to follower on leipzig), ringmaster(due to special follower ability),fairy 3(next to fairy).
I think castle may not get the bonus due to follower special condition.

If we treat these special bonus as feature score,more new questions will arise.
1、red on road ,yellow on castle
if red score bonus due to his own special ability,can yellow get it without special ability?
if red can not score ,  can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?
2、red A on road,red B on castle
if A score bonus due to his own special ability,can B get it without special ability?
if A can not score ,  can B get bonus with his own special ability?
3、no one on road ,yellow on castle
 can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 05:59:48 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2019, 03:21:19 AM »
Hi yezhenhan,

It is not clearly what is feature score.
Our family rule is easy remember.
It is feature score if you get it due to your follower normal condition(majority).

OK. I agree. I also include here all bonuses added to the feature itself on top of the core feature score.

It is not feature score if you get it due to your follower special condition(not majority) .
Not belong to feature score: Darmstadt church 3 points(due to number of follower), Leipzig(due to follower on leipzig), ringmaster(due to special follower ability),fairy 3(next to fairy).
I think castle may not get the bonus due to follower special condition.

The rules specify that the following scoring events are independent from the scoring that trigger them (in this case robbers can steal points from them but castles are not affected):
- Feature-related:
  - Gingerbread Man (before the city scores)
  - Tollhouses (before the road scores)
- Figure related:
  - Watchtowers (before the city or road scores)
  - Ringmasters (after the feature scores)
  - Fairy 3-point bonus (after the feature scores)
  - Markets of Leipzig (after the road, city, monastery or field scores)
  - Darmstadt churches (after the monastery scores)

Some other scoring events are always linked as a bonus to a feature scoring (robbers may steal from them as part of the main feature being scored and affect castles too):
- Mage and Witch (for cities)
- Little Buildings (for fields and any closeable feature: roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
- Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
- Labyrinth advanced rules (for roads)
- German Castles (for road and cities)
- Darmstadtium (for cities)
- Vineyards (for monastic buildings)

If we treat these special bonus as feature score,more new questions will arise.
1、red on road ,yellow on castle
if red score bonus due to his own special ability,can yellow get it without special ability?
if red can not score ,  can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?
2、red A on road,red B on castle
if A score bonus due to his own special ability,can B get it without special ability?
if A can not score ,  can B get bonus with his own special ability?
3、no one on road ,yellow on castle
 can yellow get bonus with his own special ability?

In a scenario with Red on a feature in a castle fief and Yellow in a castle, Yellow can only get points from a closeable feature plus its bonuses scored by Red: a city, a road, a monastic building, a German Castle, a German Cathedral,...
A scoring event not associated to a closeable feature itself will not trigger the castle scoring: watchtowers, ringmasters, acrobat pyramid, a shepherd... An exception (why not?  :o ): Circus scoring.

Any thoughts?

Cheers!

EDIT: Regrouped scoring events
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 04:31:26 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2019, 05:18:05 AM »
Hi Meepledrone,
You said Yellow can only get points from a closeable feature plus its bonuses scored by Red.
I think the owner of castle get the road score just like he is the owner of the road.
Case A:red mayor in city with no pennant,yellow is normal follower in castle.I think red get 0 point,yellow get full city score.
You think red is 0 point ,yellow is 0 point.
Case B:red normal follower in city with no pennant,yellow is mayor in castle.I think red get city score,yellow get 0.
You think red get same score as yellow.
CAR7.4  Page99
The occupier of the structure and the occupier of the castle both receive the full score
for the structure.
It does not matter whether the structure completed actually scores any points.
The castle still receives points for a completed structure which is not occupied by
a follower.

In your opinion the rule should be the occupier of the castle get the same score as the occupier of the structure, it is more clearly,why not?

Would you please give me some rules to support your opinion?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:20:56 AM by yezhenhan »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2019, 09:19:17 AM »
Hi Meepledrone,
You said Yellow can only get points from a closeable feature plus its bonuses scored by Red.

I was referring here to a generic case  where Yellow is scoring a castle because Red is scoring a feature in its fief. If Red's feature has some bonuses associated to the feature being scored, Yellow will benefit from it.

Of course there may be cases where Yellow may get additional points as a side effect not directly related to the feature being scored. Red may be completing a a road in the castle fief and a monastery outside the castle fief. If Yellow has a meeple in Bookbinders quarter of Leipzig, it may score from Red road's directly and +4 points for the meeple in Leipzig as a monastery was completed.

There may be plenty of cases like this.

Additionally, Red completes a feature in the fief of a castle owned by Red two, in this case Red scores the same feature twice.  ;)

You also have all those cases with mayors that score 0 points (in a city or in a castle) as you mention below. The mayor does not modify the scoring but it cannot score the points without pennants on the feature where it is placed. This leads to the cases you mention below where players in cities and castles do not score the same points.

I think my response mislead you. I was talking about points that can be scored by a feature (core feature scoring + bonus) and can be scored by a castle as well. Another matter is whether the player with majority in the city and the castle lord score the same points.  ;)

I think the owner of castle get the road score just like he is the owner of the road.
Case A:red mayor in city with no pennant,yellow is normal follower in castle.I think red get 0 point,yellow get full city score.
You think red is 0 point ,yellow is 0 point.

Red would score 0 points (as the mayor cannot score the points with strength 0) and Yellow would score the full points for the city, as if the city was unoccupied.

Case B:red normal follower in city with no pennant,yellow is mayor in castle.I think red get city score,yellow get 0.
You think red get same score as yellow.

Red gets the city points but Yellow scores 0 as it has no strength placed on the castle (the same as in a city with no pennats). 

CAR7.4  Page99
The occupier of the structure and the occupier of the castle both receive the full score
for the structure.

The C1 rules quoted here from the CAR are explaining the rules in the context of the base game plus CB&B. No major is considered here yet.

It does not matter whether the structure completed actually scores any points.
The castle still receives points for a completed structure which is not occupied by
a follower.

This sentences refer to the fact that castles can get points from unoccupied completed features too: roads, cities, monasteries,...

In your opinion the rule should be the occupier of the castle get the same score as the occupier of the structure, it is more clearly,why not?

Would you please give me some rules to support your opinion?

I think we agree an all of this. There are several planes to this issue:
- A feature in the fief is completed.
   - What core feature points + bonus conform the total points for this scoring?
   - Are there any meeple with majority to get the points?
       - A mayor in a city without pennants may not score the points
       - A unoccupied feature scores but nobody gets the points... (unless there is a castle involved)
  - Is the castle occupied?
      - Can the castle occupier score the points from the completed feature (no matter if is was scored or not)?

And so on and so forth. As I mentioned earlier, there are other cases that allow the occupiers to score additional points not visible to castles: watchtowers, ringmasters,...

Hope this answers your questions.

===

Check these links for more information:

>>  The mayor (as lord of a castle) cannot score points for that castle, as that castle does not have any coats of arms.

- C2 Interactions of A&M with CB&C: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor_and_Wagon

- C1 Notes for CB&C: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#Castles

>> A city with no pennants is occupied by the mayor acts like t mayor is not present (unoccupied in terms of scoring)

- C2 Additional Q&A: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Mayor

- C1 Clarification: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor_(1st_edition)#cite_note-27

>> You get points from unoccupied features in the castle fief:

- C2 CB&C rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-11

- C1 Notes for CB&C: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#cite_note-28

===

Cheers!

Online Vital Pluymers

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2019, 12:32:32 PM »
- C2 CB&C rules: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#cite_note-11

- C1 Notes for CB&C: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition)#cite_note-28


I find the text in those footnotes a little bit confusing:

"Note that this statement essentially indicates that points are tallied for all completed features, even unoccupied ones. However, generally nobody scores (receives those points) for an unoccupied feature. (2/2015)"

The first sentence indicates that the castle owner gets points for an unoccupied completed feature, but the second sentence seems to contradict it again. "However, generally nobody (including the castle lord?) receives those points".
What is the meaning of the second sentence? Is it not better just to omit it?

How is an unoccupied completed feature scored for a Castle Lord?
I assume it gets the full score including all possible multipliers (Inns, Cathedrals, German Cathedrals, Besiegers/Cathars, Witch,...) or bonuses (Mage, Little Buildings, Darmstadt, German Castles, Wineyards,...) associated to the scoring of the feature?


But what about the Markets of Leipzig?

I was referring here to a generic case  where Yellow is scoring a castle because Red is scoring a feature in its fief. If Red's feature has some bonuses associated to the feature being scored, Yellow will benefit from it.

You stated that Yellow would receive all the bonuses associated to the scored feature. However, the Markets of Leipzig bonuses are not directly associated to the feature being scored, but are in fact associated to a player's presence in the respective markets quarters. For the Wainwrights quarter, you can only get the bonus when you have a majority on the road being scored. For the Coiners quarter, you need to be present in the city being scored. So, unless a Castle Lord has also meeples on the road of city being scored, he can never receive the Wainwrights or Coiners quarter bonuses. Right?

I think scoring for a fairy would work in the same way. You can only get this bonus if the fairy is standing next to your meeple. A fairy in a unoccupied completed feature would give no points to the Castle Lord either.

What are your thoughts?

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2019, 03:12:26 PM »
Hi Meepledrone,

For example:Red A on finished monastery.yellow A on castle next it.Both red B and yellow B on Bookbinders quarter.
I think both red and yellow player score 13(red A and yellow A score 9, red B and yellow B score 4)
In your opinion,red score 13,yellow score 17(4+13)
Let me tell you a story according your opinion.maybe you will understand my opinion.
Red king get 13 points ,so he decide reward the follower,he give red A 13$,red B no money.
Yellow king get 17 points(according your opinion) ,so he decide reward the follower,he give yellow A 13$,yellow B 4$.

Red B say:it is unfair,yellow B is next to me,he get 4$,why I have not?  I go to the market ,I help you get points,not red A.
Red king think red B is right ,so give red B 4$,give red A 9$.
Red A say:it is unfair,yellow A is next to me,he get 13$,only 9$ for me, why Yellow A get more 4$ than me just due to red B? Both I and yellow A did not go to the market.


I think castle is powerful enough,if castle can steal every bonus,it is too much powerful ,we should balance it .
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:11:30 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2019, 01:07:02 AM »
Hi everyone,

One thought after reading all your opinions on castle's matters, I'd like your opinion on this proposition that may be easier and, I think, may fit the rules :

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Mage and Witch (for cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
     
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Ringmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
     
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 01:10:01 AM by corinthiens13 »

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2019, 06:25:23 PM »
Hi corinthiens13

You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.


You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers,not belong to castle owner
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 11:48:28 PM by yezhenhan »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of play in french
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2019, 12:33:52 AM »
You said
1, Castles are scored first

why?
I think same time if two features belong to different players. You can choose the order if two featurea belong to same player.

The RGG version of the rules states that the castle scores “when the first feature … in the vicinity of the castle is later completed”, so it is scored directly after a feature is completed, and thus it is scored before counting the points for any other feature.

It's also based on the WICA order of play that states "Each player receiving points chooses the order in which his or her features resolve. Exception: A castle must be resolved immediately after any feature which triggers its completion."

You said
2,as if his castle meeple was on the structure and was the only meeple present on the structure.

I think as if he is the owner of the structure is ok. Your words maybe conflict with labyrinths.

That's right, ok for "as if he is the owner of the structure"

You said
2,B. The castle's owner gets the bonuses :Darmstadt churches

I think Darmstadt church bonus belong to the player have most number of followers, not belong to castle owner

Correct, Darmstadt church bonus has to be moved to points C and D.

So here's my corrected proposition:

If a feature has been completed in a castle's fief :
1. Castles are scored first (we all agree on that I guess)

2. The owner of the castle scores the structure just as if he is the owner of the structure, and so, no matter if the structure was owned by any other players :
  • A. The castle's owner gets 0 points if he had a mayor and the structure isn't a city with pennants (city without pennants, cloister, road...etc)
    • He may still get bonuses that are Independent from the scoring:
      • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
      • Fairy 3-point if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
      • Markets of Leipzig (monasteries only as other quarters requires a meeple on the structure)
     
  • Following points are only if condition A isn't met:
  • B. The castle's owner gets the core feature points, including bonuses linked to the scoring such as:
    • Mage and Witch (for cities)
    • Little Buildings
    • Bathhouses (for roads and cities)
    • Labyrinths advanced rules (for roads)
    • German Castles (for road and cities)
    • Darmstadtium (for cities)
    • Vineyards (for monastic buildings)
     
  • C. The castle's owner gets points that are linked to his own meeples:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Not watchtowers as the castle's meeple isn't specifically on any watchtower tile
    • Ringmaster (if it's a ringmaster on the castle)
    • Fairy 3-point (if associated to the castle's meeple (if fairy + castle meeple is allowed, there's different rules about this)
    • Markets of Leipzig (road, cities, monasteries)
     
  • D. The castle's owner doesn't get any points that are linked to meeples present on the feature:
    • Darmstadt churches
    • Watchtowers
    • Ringmasters
    • Fairy 3-point bonus
    • Markets of Leipzig (roads, cities, monasteries)

3. Then the owner(s) of the feature (if there is one) scores it using normal rules, independently from the castle (even if the feature's owner is the same color than the castle's owner)

Cheers !


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