German Monasteries interactions

[Carcking]

Surely you have to follow the decision of the first person to place a follower. And if it is unoccupied for any reason you can choose.

I don't think it is automatic that you have to follow the decision of the first player there. There is reason to consider that both features are open as far as the Flier is concerned. It could be the first player just selected one to use. I don't think you can automatically draw the conclusion that if one is chosen the other is barred.

It does raise a similar question of the magic gates, the City of Carcassonne, the Castle and maybe others. If the first player has choosen one "occupation" is it reasonable that the other is still open?

For the City I can see a player being able to deploy to the monastery as a monk when the 9th tile is played, but not being able to enter it as an abbot until end of game scoring.

For the magic gate you could reason that regardless of the first occupant's occupation, the feature is occupied, so it cannot be entered by the magic gate.

For the Castle, the placement of the 9th tile could trigger the scoring of the castle as a cloister.

[asparagus]

Surely you have to follow the decision of the first person to place a follower. And if it is unoccupied for any reason you can choose.

I don't think it is automatic that you have to follow the decision of the first player there. There is reason to consider that both features are open as far as the Flier is concerned.

I assume the reason is this community clarification from the CAR:

These two options are available whenever a follower would be placed on the cloister: initial tile
placement, magic portal, flier, etc. (5/2014)

There is indeed no precedent for whether a feature which can be scored in two ways depending on how the follower is placed counts as one feature or two features. But I would suggest that if it turns out that it is effectively two features, most people will be surprised.

Also we seem to have an official clarification that the only things which stops an abbot scoring vineyards is that it is always uncompleted.

When using German Monasteries, the vineyard bonus is applied to the German Monastery if
the follower is placed as a monk and the feature is scored as a finished cloister. However, the
vineyard bonus is not applied if a follower is placed as an abbot on a German Monastery, as the
abbot scores only at the end of the game, when the vineyard has no effect. (5/2014)

We have another official clarification suggesting that abbots are treated like monks for Count of Carcassonne purposes:

Until now it was impossible to deploy a second monk to a cloister... Answer: That
is exactly the point. There was no rule that said only one monk could occupy a cloister. It was simply
not possible because of the rules for placing tiles. This is the first opportunity for stealing a cloister
away from a player. And deploying the big follower to a cloister may now be worthwhile as well.

[MrNumbers]

I think that it can be compared with different follower placement: using Flier you can choose to place a) ordinary follower, b) big follower, c) wagon, d) mayor (in cities). The same applies here - just choose a follower type: abbot or monk.

[asparagus]

I think that it can be compared with different follower placement: using Flier you can choose to place a) ordinary follower, b) big follower, c) wagon, d) mayor (in cities). The same applies here - just choose a follower type: abbot or monk.

The abbot/monk choice seems to be orthogonal to the ordinary/big/wagon/phantom choice. First of all any of those can be used as an abbot and secondly those are physically different pieces.

This seems to me to be much more a choice about how the feature is used.

[Carcking]

Yes, the open question is: once an occupation is chosen on initial placement is the other option automatically closed for the duration of the game?

What if no choice is made on initial placement, but the feature becomes occupied later through other means...magic gate, flier, wagon, etc. Is the second occupation then automatically closed?

[asparagus]

What if no choice is made on initial placement, but the feature becomes occupied later through other means...magic gate, flier, wagon, etc. Is the second occupation then automatically closed?

Why should a magic portal or flier follower placement be different from a follower-placement-cum-tile-placement? I am bemused by the determination to test the rules way past the point of destruction, but I suppose we are doing it so HiG or their customers don't have to.

[Fritz_Spinne]

If a follower is placed on a german monastery by a flying machine, a magic portal, ... and if he is allowed to be a monk or an abbot ... then

I think a second follower on the german monastery has the choice to become a monk or abbot, too. The monastery is still a monastery, it doesn't transform to anything else, only the follower could be a monk or an abbot.

[Carcking]

... but I suppose we are doing it so HiG or their customers don't have to.

Correct.     Questions have to be answered for the CAR.

[Carcking]

...But I would suggest that if it turns out that it is effectively two features, most people will be surprised.

Haha - just like Hills that do not stack. 

[Scott]

If you convert a 2-tile city into a castle, the meeple moves from the city into the castle. You then cannot place a meeple into the city anymore (magic portal, flier, etc.), only into the castle. Whether it's possible to have a monk and an abbot occupy the same cloister is a perfectly legitimate question that needs to be answered.

[Carcking]

I thought of the case of the Castle too Scott, but in that case the feature is actually physically changing, which perhaps could distinguish it from the Monastery. As you also confirm, it is a viable question.

[kettlefish]

I did not yet call with HiG, but I called with Udo Schmitz (Carcassonne-on-Tour) this week.

Our opinion is:
The flier can land on a German Monastery and can chose if the follower is used as a monk or as an abbot. It doesn't matter how it is already used by an other players follower...

[asparagus]

The flier can land on a German Monastery and can chose if the follower is used as a monk or as a abbot. It doesn't matter how it is already used by an other players follower...

Consider the difference between magic portals and fliers. Fliers can land on an already occupied feature. Does an abbot block occupation by a monk via a magic portal and vice versa does a monk block occupation by an abbot via a magic portal? Surely the answer is yes. And if so surely the flier has to follow any decision made by an existing occupant.

As such maybe it is better to use magic portals to ask this question. The more restricted mechanics means safer semantics.

Also there is the practical issue that the monastery space could be quite physically crowded.

[asparagus]

Can a player place a normal follower as an abbott and a pantom as a monk? Perhaps this is the best question for getting at the question whether they are two separate features.

[Carcking]

Can a player place a normal follower as an abbott and a pantom as a monk? Perhaps this is the best question for getting at the question whether they are two separate features.

I would say No, because the feature is occupied. For the Phantom (and the Magic Gate and the Wagon), the feature must be unoccupied. Even though the alternate occupation may be available, the feature is occupied.