Author Topic: Questions  (Read 77600 times)

Offline totor66

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Re: Questions
« Reply #180 on: April 11, 2020, 06:22:22 AM »
Does an incomplete cloister occupied by an abbot is scored, does abbot goes to a free bathhouse ?
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Offline NGC 54

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Re: Questions
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2020, 06:34:13 AM »
I think no, because in this case the abbot is scored in step. 2, and the placing of a meeple on a bathhouse happens in step 3.
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Offline NGC 54

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Re: Questions
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2020, 06:37:48 AM »
The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Questions
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2020, 11:31:37 AM »
The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?
We were playing this way that this is different meeple scored in this turn, so in current run scored and more than one meeple, so no-one goes to bathhouse.
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #184 on: April 12, 2020, 03:58:33 AM »
[192.] "You can place a wagon in a castle when converting a completed small city into a castle. There is no written rule or clarification stating that after scoring the castle you may move the wagon to an adjacent unoccupied feature.

So far we can assume the wagon will score the castle and the player will remove it.

You may define a house rule to move it to any unoccupied feature in the castle fief but, this is not official", but "Exp. 8 - Bridges, Castles and Bazaars: If you place your ringmaster on a castle, you score its ringmaster points considering the 6 tiles in the castle fief."

I'm not sure if you are asking for confirmation on this.

The rules for the wagon change from C1 (the wagon can move to an unoccupied feature connected by roads or shared edges) to C2 (the wagon can move to an unoccupied in the vicinity of the current position: current tile or any tile around it).

The rules don't specify how to move a wagon placed in a castle after scoring:
* C1 rules: Can the wagon move to an incomplete unoccupied road ending at the castle (the former town/small city)?
* C2 rules: Can the wagon move to an incomplete unoccupied feature in the fief of the castle?

These would be the logical options available but we have no official answers for this as of yet.

You can revisit the rules her:
* C1: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor_(1st_edition)#Scoring_3
* C2: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#3._Scoring_a_feature_4

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #185 on: April 12, 2020, 04:13:33 AM »
[193.] Does an incomplete cloister occupied by an abbot is scored, does abbot goes to a free bathhouse ?

There you have your answer...

I think no, because in this case the abbot is scored in step. 2, and the placing of a meeple on a bathhouse happens in step 3.

When a scoring happens you have to remember the phase it belongs to as there are bonuses and actions that only happen during phase 3. Scoring a feature that will not apply to scorings happening in other phases.

In this case, as Carcassonne93 mentioned, the abbot is scored in phase 2. Placing a meeple and sending a meeple to a bathhouse involves features scored in phase 3. Scoring a feature.

You can check the turn sequence in the Order of Play to verify the timing of these two events and, if interested, other scoring events:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #186 on: April 12, 2020, 05:13:46 AM »
[194.] The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?

The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?
We were playing this way that this is different meeple scored in this turn, so in current run scored and more than one meeple, so no-one goes to bathhouse.

Message 8 applies scoring after the the game, where no bathhouse scoring or actions are applied (it affects completed features with one meeple only).

This said, Message 8 should not apply anything related to bathhouses in the scoring taking place.

Offline NGC 54

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Re: Questions
« Reply #187 on: April 12, 2020, 05:25:31 AM »
Do you receive 3 points for fairy if you use message 1, 2 or 3?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Questions
« Reply #188 on: April 12, 2020, 06:08:25 AM »
[194.] The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?

The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?
We were playing this way that this is different meeple scored in this turn, so in current run scored and more than one meeple, so no-one goes to bathhouse.

Message 8 applies scoring after the the game, where no bathhouse scoring or actions are applied (it affects completed features with one meeple only).

This said, Message 8 should not apply anything related to bathhouses in the scoring taking place.

I don't know. Maybe we are plaing Message 8 wrong, but in rules is written:

( 8 ) Score a Meeple and Return it to your Supply: Choose one of your meeples in the play area. If you have the majority in the feature where this meeple is, score the area as you would at the end of the game but only you get points. Then return only your meeple that was on the feature back to your supply, even if it didn't score any points.

That Meeple is scored by end game scoring rules ( Message 8 ), it dosn't mean, that it can't go to bathhouse.

Rules for Barger-Surgeons are:
If there is only one Meeple involved in scoring a feature and if there is at least one free bathhouse, instead of returning the Meeple to your hand, you must place your Meeple sideways in (any) one of the free bathhouses (or in the only free bathhouse) immediately after the scoring. You score the feature as usual before doing so.

Question is, what means this rule by "scoring a feature". If it's only finishing Road / City / Monastery / Garden (what ever else) by rules scoring during a game, in this case. Meepledrone is right. If it's not so strict, than Meeple can go to bathhouse.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 08:54:57 AM by stano.lacko »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Questions
« Reply #189 on: April 12, 2020, 09:02:01 AM »
I think no, because in this case the abbot is scored in step. 2, and the placing of a meeple on a bathhouse happens in step 3.

You are scoring a feature, so I guess, meeple goes to Bathhouse.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #190 on: April 12, 2020, 09:53:15 AM »
[194.] The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?

The Barber-Surgeons: What happens if you score a meeple with the message 8?
We were playing this way that this is different meeple scored in this turn, so in current run scored and more than one meeple, so no-one goes to bathhouse.

Message 8 applies scoring after the the game, where no bathhouse scoring or actions are applied (it affects completed features with one meeple only).

This said, Message 8 should not apply anything related to bathhouses in the scoring taking place.

I don't know. Maybe we are plaing Message 8 wrong, but in rules is written:

( 8 ) Score a Meeple and Return it to your Supply: Choose one of your meeples in the play area. If you have the majority in the feature where this meeple is, score the area as you would at the end of the game but only you get points. Then return only your meeple that was on the feature back to your supply, even if it didn't score any points.

That Meeple is scored by end game scoring rules (Message 8 ), it dosn't mean, that it can't go to bathhouse.

Rules for Barger-Surgeons are:
If there is only one Meeple involved in scoring a feature and if there is at least one free bathhouse, instead of returning the Meeple to your hand, you must place your Meeple sideways in (any) one of the free bathhouses (or in the only free bathhouse) immediately after the scoring. You score the feature as usual before doing so.

Question is, what means this rule by "scoring a feature". If it's only finishing Road / City / Monastery / Garden (what ever else) by rules scoring during a game, in this case. Meepledrone is right. If it's not so strict, than Meeple can go to bathhouse.


The point is that the rules are written with the only base game in mind. That means that the rules only consider completed features being scored in phase 3. Scoring a feature. In this regard, you can see:
* The example with the small town

Quote
After scoring the small city, you place your Meeple in the bathhouse.

* The comments how to decide the order of scoring when about a tile completing several features with one tile placement.

Quote
If there are several features scored (by placing one single land tile) you have to consider the order in which the features are scored - the player who placed the land tile decides the order in which the scoring is carried out, as this may affect which meeples are placed in free bathhouses (if applicable).

If we put all this together, the rules talk about scoring features completed by tiles (involving one meeple). So this excludes any scoring triggered by other mechanisms:
* 1-point fairy bonus (no feature completed)
* Wheel of Fortune scoring (no feature completed)
* Wind rose bonus (a feature may be completed at this time but it is not scored here - this scoring is different)
* Removing the abbot
* Scoring an acrobat pyramid
* Scoring a shepherd and its flock
* Harvesting and selling fruit
* Scoring the big top
* Getting points from a bazaar action
* Getting points from the catapult
* Getting points as ransom for a captured meeple
 
As we are talking about completed features by tiles, this would exclude:
* Anything not scored as part of the feature itself but associated to a figure or token providing a side bonus:
   - The Tollhouse bonus
   - The Watchtower bonus
   - The teacher bonus
   - The Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads, cities and monastic buildings
   - The Ringmaster bonus
   - The 3-point scoring fairy bonus
   - The Darmstadt church bonus
* Scoring any features after the game, since the game has ended and all the regular mechanism in force during the game are suspended: placing tiles, placing meeples, messages, robbers, gold ingot collecting, to name a few, and therefore meeple trapping by bathhouses or meeple buy back from bathhouses.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #191 on: April 12, 2020, 10:18:47 AM »
(193.) I think no, because in this case the abbot is scored in step. 2, and the placing of a meeple on a bathhouse happens in step 3.

You are scoring a feature, so I guess, meeple goes to Bathhouse.

Allow me to disagree if you please.

You are scoring a figure, the abbot, that happens to score in phase 2. Placing a meeple as an incomplete monastic building or garden at the end of the game without any possible bonus from phase 3. Scoring a feature. So these bonuses may not be applied:
* Monastic buildings with an abbot as a monk: no vineyards, Darmstadt church bonus, teacher bonus, Bookbinders bonus (Markets of Leipzig) or 3-point fairy scoring bonus,can be applied, for example.
* Gardens: no fairy bonus can be applied, for example.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Questions
« Reply #192 on: April 12, 2020, 11:54:06 AM »
[195.] Do you receive 3 points for fairy if you use message 1, 2 or 3?

Yes, you may get the 3-point fairy scoring bonus when resolving Messages 1, 2 and 3.

These three messages let you pick an incomplete feature with one of your meeples so you score it as if after the game. You have to choose the feature worth the fewest points.

The rules for the 3-point fairy bonus indicate it applies to a meeple (with the fairy next to it) placed on a feature being scored, no matter if the meeple has the majority. This means the meeple receiving the bonus may be on:
* A complete feature scored during the game in phase 3. Scoring a feature (roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
* An incomplete feature scored after the game (roads, cities, monastic buildings, fields,...)

So, in our case, when scoring a feature when resolving messages 1, 2 or 3, that is, scoring it as if after the game, a meeple on it next to the fairy would get the 3-point fairy scoring bonus.

You can review the rules here:
* Messages 1, 2 and 3: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#The_Messages_Tiles
* The 3-point scoring fairy bonus: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#3._Scoring_a_feature_5

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Questions
« Reply #193 on: April 12, 2020, 11:57:25 AM »
(193.) I think no, because in this case the abbot is scored in step. 2, and the placing of a meeple on a bathhouse happens in step 3.

You are scoring a feature, so I guess, meeple goes to Bathhouse.

Allow me to disagree if you please.

You are scoring a figure, the abbot, that happens to score in phase 2. Placing a meeple as an incomplete monastic building or garden at the end of the game without any possible bonus from phase 3. Scoring a feature. So these bonuses may not be applied:
* Monastic buildings with an abbot as a monk: no vineyards, Darmstadt church bonus, teacher bonus, Bookbinders bonus (Markets of Leipzig) or 3-point fairy scoring bonus,can be applied, for example.
* Gardens: no fairy bonus can be applied, for example.

Great. In this case, gardens give us more opportunities hot to get points without "swimming" of Abbot in bathhouse.

Good news.

Happy Easter ;-)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Questions
« Reply #194 on: April 12, 2020, 11:59:19 AM »
[195.] Do you receive 3 points for fairy if you use message 1, 2 or 3?

Yes, you may get the 3-point fairy scoring bonus when resolving Messages 1, 2 and 3.

These three messages let you pick an incomplete feature with one of your meeples so you score it as if after the game. You have to choose the feature worth the fewest points.

The rules for the 3-point fairy bonus indicate it applies to a meeple (with the fairy next to it) placed on a feature being scored, no matter if the meeple has the majority. This means the meeple receiving the bonus may be on:
* A complete feature scored during the game in phase 3. Scoring a feature (roads, cities, monastic buildings,...)
* An incomplete feature scored after the game (roads, cities, monastic buildings, fields,...)

So, in our case, when scoring a feature when resolving messages 1, 2 or 3, that is, scoring it as if after the game, a meeple on it next to the fairy would get the 3-point fairy scoring bonus.

You can review the rules here:
* Messages 1, 2 and 3: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#The_Messages_Tiles
* The 3-point scoring fairy bonus: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#3._Scoring_a_feature_5

And meeple is going or not going to bathhouse? By rules described before and message 1,2,3 is as scoring as end of game, it means, that meeplne is going back to player without staying in bathhouse, right?


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