Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: deepwoods on March 15, 2013, 06:12:31 PM
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3 Questions regarding Builders:
First question:
1st turn I place a follower.
2nd turn I place a builder, while at the same time completing the road or city. Therefore, the bulder is removed. As a result, I do not get my bonus turn on the next play.
Correct or incorrect?
Second question:
1st turn I place a knight in a city.
2nd turn I place another city tile with the builder.
3rd turn I place an additional city tile, but it's not directly connected to the city with the builder. I am placing it to extend the builder's city in an attempt to attach to an opponents city in a future move.
Do I get my bonus turn even though this 3rd tile placement does not yet attach to my existing city with the builder?
Third Question:
The annotated rules state - "If the road or city is not completed during the course of the double turn, the builder remains in play. The player may take double turns for as long as the road or city remains incomplete".
This sounds too bizarre. If I'm reading it correctly, I can choose not to complete my road or city with a builder and therefore, continue taking double-turns for the rest of the game. Does this mean I can take double turns anywhere I choose or are my double turns restricted to the road or city the builder is on? Up until now I always thought the builder permits only one additional bonus turn, but the above rule contradicts this.
Thank you everyone for your help
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1. Correct, if the builder is deployed AND removed during the same turn, you do not get a "bonus turn".
2. No, you may only get a "bonus turn" by extending the city containing the builder.
3. You have misunderstood. You only get a "double turn" by extending the city containing the builder. You can theoretically extend the city with the builder every turn without ever completing the city (though in practice you will not always draw a tile with a city segment).
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First question:
1st turn I place a follower.
2nd turn I place a builder, while at the same time completing the road or city. Therefore, the bulder is removed. As a result, I do not get my bonus turn on the next play.
Correct or incorrect?
There is no value in placing the builder in a feature you are completing on that play. The builder would come right off after scoring and return to your supply. Since the feature the builder is in was not extended while the builder was there, but rather just prior to the builder being there, an extended turn is not generated.
Second question:
1st turn I place a knight in a city.
2nd turn I place another city tile with the builder.
3rd turn I place an additional city tile, but it's not directly connected to the city with the builder. I am placing it to extend the builder's city in an attempt to attach to an opponents city in a future move.
Do I get my bonus turn even though this 3rd tile placement does not yet attach to my existing city with the builder?
In your 2nd turn you may only place the builder into a feature that you already occupy. Hopefully, that is clear as a premise to your 3rd turn.
Your description of your 3rd turn may be somewhat puzzling. I think you are saying you are extending the city containing your builder without connecting to the actual tile the builder is on? Is that correct? If that is so, then yes, you do earn an extended turn. The builder grants the extended turn when the feature he is in (regardless of which tile) is extended by you on your turn. The proximity of the builder to the extending tile is not important, only that he already occupies the extended feature.
Third Question:
The annotated rules state - "If the road or city is not completed during the course of the double turn, the builder remains in play. The player may take double turns for as long as the road or city remains incomplete".
This sounds too bizarre. If I'm reading it correctly, I can choose not to complete my road or city with a builder and therefore, continue taking double-turns for the rest of the game. Does this mean I can take double turns anywhere I choose or are my double turns restricted to the road or city the builder is on? Up until now I always thought the builder permits only one additional bonus turn, but the above rule contradicts this.
IMO It should have been worded "The player may generate an extended turn on each of his turns that the feature containing the builder is incomplete." The extended turn is generated by extending the feature containing the builder. Keep in mind a chain reaction within a turn is not permitted. In other words, only one extended turn may be generated on any given turn.
So yes, you can have an extended turn each turn for the rest of the game if you are able to extend that feature each turn. There is no limit.
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Thank you - Things are clearing up. One last question.
I read somewhere that builders can be placed elsewhere on bonus turns if one of my followers occupies that road or city. In other words, I have an unfinished city with a builder and on a "bonus turn only" I can remove the builder without finishing the city and place it into another road or city that I add a tile for, that currently has one of my followers.
Correct?
Thank you.
DW.
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Thank you - Things are clearing up. One last question.
I read somewhere that builders can be placed elsewhere on bonus turns if one of my followers occupies that road or city. In other words, I have an unfinished city with a builder and on a "bonus turn only" I can remove the builder without finishing the city and place it into another road or city that I add a tile for, that currently has one of my followers.
Correct?
Thank you.
DW.
This is incorrect. Once your builder is on a feature, he is stuck on that feature until it is completed. The only way you can move a builder on a bonus turn is if you complete the feature on your first turn, thereby returning the builder to you, and then on your bonus turn you add to a feature you already have and then play the builder on this feature.
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Thank you - Things are clearing up. One last question.
I read somewhere that builders can be placed elsewhere on bonus turns if one of my followers occupies that road or city. In other words, I have an unfinished city with a builder and on a "bonus turn only" I can remove the builder without finishing the city and place it into another road or city that I add a tile for, that currently has one of my followers.
Correct?
Thank you.
DW.
This is incorrect. Once your builder is on a feature, he is stuck on that feature until it is completed. The only way you can move a builder on a bonus turn is if you complete the feature on your first turn, thereby returning the builder to you, and then on your bonus turn you add to a feature you already have and then play the builder on this feature.
This is correct. Nice work on the answer Chuckles, and welcome to the CC forum. I would add though that Festival would also allow you to remove a Builder, as the mechanic allows you to remove followers and figures.
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Thank you - that answers my question.
Cheers
DW
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Just as an aside, could someone please confirm whether a bonus turn is allowed when a feature containing a builder is completed? For example, if I have a city with a builder in it and place a tile that completes the city, would I still get the bonus turn that would normally follow if I’d extended the city without completing it? Technically the city has been extended so it seems logical that the bonus turn should be allowed, but I know players who would say that no bonus turn is given if the city (or road) containing the builder is completed on the first turn.
Many thanks!
Dan
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Just as an aside, could someone please confirm whether a bonus turn is allowed when a feature containing a builder is completed? For example, if I have a city with a builder in it and place a tile that completes the city, would I still get the bonus turn that would normally follow if I’d extended the city without completing it? Technically the city has been extended so it seems logical that the bonus turn should be allowed
Welcome to the CC Forum danisthirty! Glad to have you along with a nice thought provoking question.
Here is the answer. Yes - with these clarifications.
It must be on your turn.
The completing of the feature must extend it also. Keep in mind that an Abbey can complete a feature without extending it.
With that said, you said something in your last sentence which leads me to believe you may not have the sequencing down right.
but I know players who would say that no bonus turn is given if the city (or road) containing the builder is completed on the first turn.
Getting an extended builder play is actually a three step process.
First step - you must occupy the feature (a wood move from a previous turn).
Second step - on a subsequent wood move you may deploy your builder to a feature you already occupy if you play a tile that extends that very feature.
Third step - the next time you play a tile that extends that feature you earn the extended turn.
Technically, you can deploy the builder on the tile that completes the feature (the second step) but you will not earn the extra turn because you did not make it to the third step - the builder was not already there when you played the tile. Given this, you are not able to complete a feature containing the builder on the "first turn" as you indicated in your post.
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Thanks for the welcome Carcking, and for your helpful response!
You have answered my question, even though I didn't phrase it in the most clear of ways. When I mentioned "on the first turn" in the part of my question you quoted I was referring to the first turn as opposed to an extended/ bonus turn and was assuming that the incomplete city with knight and builder was already in play. In essence, I just wanted to know whether the extended turn was granted if the turn that *might* grant it completes the city that the follower is already in. It sounds like it does!
Thanks again,
Dan
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The annotated rules state - "If the road or city is not completed during the course of the double turn, the builder remains in play. The player may take double turns for as long as the road or city remains incomplete".
IMO It should have been worded "The player may generate an extended turn on each of his turns that the feature containing the builder is incomplete." The extended turn is generated by extending the feature containing the builder. Keep in mind a chain reaction within a turn is not permitted. In other words, only one extended turn may be generated on any given turn.
I'm a little late to this discussion, but I agree, the wording in the current CAR isn't the best. I have adjusted the sentence in the upcoming version of the CAR so that it doesn't sound like a chain reaction anymore.
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In general, I think the practice of calling it a "double" turn is inaccurate and misleading. There are certain mechanics that clearly do not make it a true double turn. IMO the more accurate term is "extended". The builder generates an "extended" turn.
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I agree with Carcking.
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In general, I think the practice of calling it a "double" turn is inaccurate and misleading. There are certain mechanics that clearly do not make it a true double turn. IMO the more accurate term is "extended". The builder generates an "extended" turn.
I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, ZMG calls it a double turn, and RGG referred to it as both a double turn and a second turn (which is even worse!), so we've gone with the flow. As I recall, and kettlefish can correct me if I'm wrong, the German term that HiG uses is truly best translated "double turn," so we can't even blame a bad translation.
However, the point of the CAR is to try to produce clarity, so I'm thinking about changing the phrase to "extended turn" in future versions. I'll footnote the change, but I feel like the term "double turn" brings too much confusion when other expansions are in play.
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We German say "Doppelzug" - why is the translation "double turn" not correct?
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We German say "Doppelzug" - why is the translation "double turn" not correct?
That is likely a correct translation...the problem is what actually occurs is not a true double turn...rather, an extended turn.
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We German say "Doppelzug" - why is the translation "double turn" not correct?
That is likely a correct translation...the problem is what actually occurs is not a true double turn...rather, an extended turn.
An extended turn is one - when you can draw and place more than one tile but not more than one "move wood" (only at one tile).
Please be careful with new names. One day HiG decided to use the name extended turn for a new expansion.... It is all possible at HiG... ;D
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An extended turn is one - when you can draw and place more than one tile but not more than one "move wood" (only at one tile).
Has someone at HiG already determined this? When does this case exist?
The word "extended" is a generic word which could indicate any game play occurring in a turn beyond the normal components of a regular turn. It could be triggered by a builder or by a mechanic not yet announced. It would be difficult in my opinion for HiG to use the term "extended" to define a specific turn function or mechanic.
I agree with your point though that it would be prudent for even the use of the word "extended" to be a little more defined so that it could be differentiated from future extended turn mechanics. I suggest it can be called an "extended builder turn" if we are looking for a logical compliment to the term "double turn". Then for future it could be an "extended (insert mechanic name here) turn".
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The double turn:
you have two complete turns:
1. to draw and place a landscape tile
2. to "move wood"
3. to score
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We have not yet an expansion from HiG with an "extended turn" (a streched turn).
I think an extended turn is for example with more tiles than only one tile to draw and place (part 1 of the turn) but only "one move wood".
This case we don't have - so I think it could be possible one day.
for the part 2 "move wood" during the turn - more than one figure - we have the phantom
But for example the festival - you can displace an own figure from the playing area - even the barn. Before we have this expansion, it was a no go, that a figure - especially the barn - could be displaced like this (the only displacement was: the tower or the dragon - but not for the barn).
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The double turn:
you have two complete turns:
1. to draw and place a landscape tile
2. to "move wood"
3. to score
This is the issue we are dealing with though - the use of the word double implies to the novice that you get two complete double turns - with the builder however you do not get two complete double turns. There are certain mechanics that do not duplicate - they are only performed once during the whole turn. So the double turn is not two complete turns...it's a turn and some additional actions - an extended builder turn.
In the CAR we are trying to consolidate and simplify the rules to make a good reference tool. As it is now we are having to call it a double turn - but then add several qualifiers (footnotes) to explain that it's not actually a double turn, but rather (by definition) an extended turn.
I think the goal to keep in mind is what we want the CAR to achieve. :)
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The phrase "double turn" worked better when the builder rules were originally written. As more expansions have been created, typically from the standpoint of not mixing them all together, the definition of "double turn" is increasingly strained.
If a lot of people are against "extended turn", I'll be fine with that. We need to determine what is the trade-off between accuracy and clarity?
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We need to determine what is the trade-off between accuracy and clarity?
Agreed. :red-meeple:
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I've pondered a bit, and I'm not convinced that I have a better alternative to the phrase "double-turn" that would be worth changing the lingo away from the HiG translation. What I plan to do at this point is make a big bold footnote that tries to emphasize that the "double-turn" is really a single turn with some repeated parts. I will then list the parts that are NOT repeated. Based on my reading of the rules and previous clarifications, the following things only occur once per turn:
Fairy bonus point (has clarification)
Prisoner buyback from the Tower (has clarification)
Tunnel token placement (not convinced about this one)
Flight from plague (as far as I can tell)
Plague spread (as far as I can tell)
Did I leave anything out? Did I include something that shouldn't be included?
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Did I leave anything out? Did I include something that shouldn't be included?
Honestly, I think either way, you're going to have to keep a running list as the game grows with expansions...
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Did I leave anything out? Did I include something that shouldn't be included?
Honestly, I think either way, you're going to have to keep a running list as the game grows with expansions...
obervet03,
perhaps we need a special page for the "double-turn" - may be in a tabular form:
included in double-turn - not included in double-turn
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I agree, Carcking, a running list will be necessary. I like kettlefish's idea of a table. I might put that at the end of the Traders & Builders section so people don't have to flip all the way back to the Turn Order section to see if something is included.
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A table is a good idea. Thumbs up!
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I have added a table to the upcoming version of the CAR -- the headings of the columns are "Things that happen only ONCE" and "Things that may or must happen TWICE."
I have included the 5 actions from a few posts above in the "ONCE" column. For the actions from the Spielbox expansions, I don't have definitive clarifications about their inclusion; I'm just going off the rules as best I can. For the Plague actions, inclusion in the ONCE category seems pretty logical. I also feel like the Tunnel one is the same way, since placement of a Tunnel token can occur at any time during the turn (it's not connected to the tile placement or anything). If I learn anything new, I will update the table accordingly.
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In the Speilbox rules for the Plague it says the player places a flea token anytime during the player's turn.
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In the Speilbox rules for the Plague it says the player places a flea token anytime during the player's turn.
The plague tokens and tunnel tokens seem to mirror each other as far as placement goes (other than one being mandatory), as both occur once a turn, at any time, unrelated to the Move Wood phase. So it seems logical that neither one would be duplicated in the "double turn."
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I didn't get an answer from Spielbox yet.
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My understanding of "anytime" is that you can perform that action only once, but at any point during your turn.
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My understanding of "anytime" is that you can perform that action only once, but at any point during your turn.
My thinking is the same.