Author Topic: A maze of rules (Read 41681 times)

Whaleyland · « **Reply #30 on:** December 31, 2014, 05:58:57 PM »

I'm procrastinating, so here's my proposed expansion order:

Carcassonne (side note about CII)

Large:
1. Inns & Cathedrals
2. Traders & Builders
3. Princess & Dragon
4. Tower
5. Abbey & Mayor
6. Count, King & Cult (HiG/Spielbox/RGG for Cult)
7. Catapult
8. Bridges, Castles & Bazaars
9. Sheep & Hills
Wheel of Fortune (stand-alone/BB5)

Minis:
The River (original/BB5/CarcII or not)
Phantom
Flying Machine
Messengers
Ferries
Goldmines
Mage & Witch
Robber
Corn Circles I/II
Abbot (or not)

Promos:
Festival
School
Windroses (HiG/Spielbox)
Besiegers
Monasteries (German/Netherlandish)
Spiel 2014 (or not)
Half & Half I/II

Spielbox:
Cathars
Tunnel
Plague
Little Buildings

Distributor Specials:
Mini Expansion
Cult, Siege & Creativity
Darmstadt
La Porxada

I think one thing that can be done regarding Besigers/Cathars/Siege is to have separate pages for them but to just have a fairly simple reference back to the first instance of the expansion. Alternatively, have three pages that are identical except for the information at the top and the tile summary, though I feel this would be less helpful. I honestly don't even know if Cult, Siege & Creativity needs to be anything other than a footnote, though. If that went, Siege would be the only thing left for that expansion entry (since Creativity really doesn't seem as necessary now since blank tiles can be ordered en masse worldwide from Cundco).

Dump the reference to the original Winter Edition. It's not necessary and rather archaic, even if it still technically exists. I'd buy the new version any day before print-and-playing a copy on my own tiles. Move it to the Winter Edition CAR, if nothing else.

There's also the issue with The Abbot and Carc II. Currently I consider it personally a core component of a stand-alone spin-off of the base game. I hope we will find out soon what the company's intention is regarding Carc II.

kettlefish · « **Reply #31 on:** December 31, 2014, 10:51:52 PM »

Example Crop Circles I and Crop Circles II:

here in this posting you can see how it could look if we put both minis together as a combination:

The most changes are at the first and the last page.
In this example I used 4 pages.
I put the differences and some history of the minis in a frame.

kettlefish · « **Reply #32 on:** January 01, 2015, 03:26:23 PM »

Hi whaleyland,
you have an interesting idea how to splitt the minis.
But I am not sure if I can follow your "Promos".

The promos for me is only:
- The school (all money goes to the school project in Ghana)
- The Spiel'14 landscape tile

All the other minis are "Minis" in my opinion.

"Distributor Specials"
"La Porxada" is more a fan-expansion, because it was never sold and it was only a paper sheed, not a glued tile. The Spanish people printed only 72 pieces and then Klaus-Jürgen Wrede signed them. Some of the visitors got this tile at the convention in Spain.

Whaleyland · « **Reply #33 on:** January 01, 2015, 04:51:15 PM »

kettlefish, I think you've got to let the La Porxada thing rest. Klaus Jürge-Wrede himself distributes copies of it – I have one. It may not be "official" but it's more official than any other fan expansion, there are levels of its officialness regarding distribution (does it have a signature on it or not), and it is currently included in the CAR (which is why I put it on my list). I know HiG doesn't recognize it as "official" but I don't think they recognize "Cult, Siege & Creativity" or "The Mini Expansion" as official either, even though those are printed as actual tiles.

Anyway, my justification for the promos is that those specific expansions were released under special circumstances or only through Cundco, conventions, and Carc-on-Tour. Perhaps "exclusive" would be a better term for them:

Festival (10th Anniversary & Cundco)
School (Cundco Only)
Windroses (HiG/Spielbox) (Cundco & Spielbox)
Besiegers (Müller Edition & Cundco)
Monasteries (German/Netherlandish)
Spiel 2014 (or not) (Spiel 2014 Only [unofficially Cundco])
Half & Half I/II (Cundco & Spielbox)

Every other expansion had some mass-market distribution method except Corn Circles I, which is saved from this list by being paired with Corn Circles II. Currently, The Abbot should go on this list, too, since it is an edition-special, but I stated earlier that I personally consider everything regarding CarcII as a stand-alone spin-off until we get word otherwise from HiG.

I hope that clarifies my justification for the Promo/Exclusive description. Perhaps it's too nebulous and all the minis should be merged together, but I wanted to separate them out in order of obtainability. These expansions are clearly harder to obtain on the open market than the ones above it on the list (Spielbox expansions notwithstanding).

kettlefish · « **Reply #34 on:** January 01, 2015, 11:21:22 PM »

Quote from: whaleyland on January 01, 2015, 04:51:15 PM

kettlefish, I think you've got to let the La Porxada thing rest. Klaus Jürge-Wrede himself distributes copies of it – I have one. It may not be "official" but it's more official than any other fan expansion,...

I know how do you get one.

obervet · « **Reply #35 on:** January 05, 2015, 11:40:26 AM »

Acknowledging that everybody has an organization scheme that would make sense to them, and knowing that I can't make everyone happy simultaneously, my thought was to divide the expansions:

1. Base Game (+ Carc 2.0, probably)
2. Major numbered expansions + Wheel of Fortune
3. Mini expansions (probably alphabetical)

To subdivide the minis further would only seem to make the scheme more complex, since we can't all agree on what makes a promo, etc. More importantly, though, the average user of the CAR (whoever that might actually be) shouldn't have to remember exactly what channel he or she got the expansion through just to find it in the table of contents.

Of course, based on that, you could argue that all expansions, large and small, should be in a single alphabetical list. To which I respond: yeah, maybe they should. However, since the large expansions are much more internationally available, the 1-2-3 division essentially works out:

1. Game for everyone
2. Add-ons for people who kind of like the base game
3. Add-ons for the more dedicated

(I know, the 6 minis/Big Box 4 kind of mess #3 up.)

Allan in Brisbane · « **Reply #36 on:** January 05, 2015, 12:37:20 PM »

You should also remember that not everyone who buys Carcassonne is as ... determined to have every aspect of every expansion.
For some of us we are happy with with one version of a siege etc.
Putting the set-up in the format above means the less obsessive Carcassonne player will usually look towards the front of the book.

As a aside - how do you get someone else's quote into your post - the blue sections.
Thanks

jungleboy · « **Reply #37 on:** January 05, 2015, 12:49:10 PM »

Quote from: Allan in Brisbane on January 05, 2015, 12:37:20 PM

As a aside - how do you get someone else's quote into your post - the blue sections.
Thanks

There is a link that says Quote at the top right of each post. Just click it and the whole post will be quoted in your text box and then you can modify it as you wish (by removing certain sections etc). If you've already begun your reply, you can scroll down to see the previous posts and use the Insert Quote link at the top right of each one that you want to quote.

Carcking · « **Reply #38 on:** January 05, 2015, 01:17:42 PM »

I think the 1, 2, 3 approach works and is simple enough. Do we want to focus on the rules? or every little aspect of publishing and distribution?

nanoanno · « **Reply #39 on:** January 05, 2015, 04:38:59 PM »

I know I'm kind of new around here... but I really like the 1.2.3. system obervet suggested. I consider myself to be a big fan of the game (all the major expansions + 80ish% of the little expansions) and I still sometimes find it confusing to know the differences between certain releases (with the siege, etc. being a great example).

Maybe on the numbered minis you could note them as this:
Abbot (or not)
Besiegers
Cathars
Cult, Siege & Creativity
Crop Circles I/II (mini 7)
Darmstadt
Ferries (mini 3)
Festival
Flying Machine (mini 1)
Goldmines (mini 4)
Half & Half I/II
La Porxada
Little Buildings
Mage & Witch (mini 5)
Mini Expansion <-- I believe this is referring to the 12-tiles expansion from Games Quarterly? Maybe it should have a new name to avoid confusion
Messengers (mini 2)
Monasteries (German/Netherlandish)
Phantom
Plague
The River (original/BB5/CarcII or not)
Robber (mini 6)
School
Spiel 2014 (or not)
Tunnel
Windroses (HiG/Spielbox)

Which also gives me the idea that all little expansions could have a note of where they originated from, just an idea.

Alternately, it could be listed as this, which would keep them together alphabetically:
Mini 1: Flying Machine (mini 1)
Mini 2: Messengers (mini 2)
Mini 3: Ferries (mini 3)
Mini 4: Goldmines (mini 4)
Mini 5: Mage & Witch (mini 5)
Mini 6: Robber (mini 6)
Mini 7: (optional/maybe just a note in the Crop Circles I/II section about how it was considered to be mini 7 and the tiles were dispersed across minis 1-6)

I also love the mock-up of Crop Circles I and II that kettlefish put together. It's super helpful for someone who is trying to figure out exactly what it is and provides all of the information in one place. Plus the tile distribution is great for knowing which Crop Circle set you have (something it took me a while to figure out back in the day).

kettlefish · « **Reply #40 on:** January 05, 2015, 11:29:36 PM »

Hi nanoanno,
I like your idea with the minis #1-7, because I know that HiG is thinking about to create one day the next series of minis. In the best case the next minis will start with #8.

obervet · « **Reply #41 on:** January 06, 2015, 08:29:16 AM »

Quote from: nanoanno on January 05, 2015, 04:38:59 PM

Maybe on the numbered minis you could note them as this:

[Completely alphabetical]

Which also gives me the idea that all little expansions could have a note of where they originated from, just an idea.

Alternately, it could be listed as this, which would keep them together alphabetically:
Mini 1: Flying Machine (mini 1)
Mini 2: Messengers (mini 2)
Mini 3: Ferries (mini 3)
Mini 4: Goldmines (mini 4)
Mini 5: Mage & Witch (mini 5)
Mini 6: Robber (mini 6)
Mini 7: (optional/maybe just a note in the Crop Circles I/II section about how it was considered to be mini 7 and the tiles were dispersed across minis 1-6)

I have actually been going back and forth on which of these two approaches to take myself. Part of me wants to keep the 7 Minis together, but the other side of me says that their numbers are pretty arbitrary, and there's no real connection between the various sets (other than having a tile from Crop Circles II).

Oh, and to give credit where it's due, kettlefish posted basically the same 1-2-3 system before I did.

Quote from: nanoanno on January 05, 2015, 04:38:59 PM

I also love the mock-up of Crop Circles I and II that kettlefish put together. It's super helpful for someone who is trying to figure out exactly what it is and provides all of the information in one place. Plus the tile distribution is great for knowing which Crop Circle set you have (something it took me a while to figure out back in the day).

I agree, the consolidation will help. Basically Crop Circles I/II and Cathars/Sieges/Besiegers will look more like the River I and Wind Roses sections do now, with little boxes separating out any differences between the sets and a multi-part tile guide at the end.

kettlefish · « **Reply #42 on:** January 06, 2015, 09:45:48 AM »

Quote from: obervet on January 06, 2015, 08:29:16 AM

Quote from: nanoanno on January 05, 2015, 04:38:59 PM
I also love the mock-up of Crop Circles I and II that kettlefish put together. It's super helpful for someone who is trying to figure out exactly what it is and provides all of the information in one place. Plus the tile distribution is great for knowing which Crop Circle set you have (something it took me a while to figure out back in the day).

I agree, the consolidation will help. Basically Crop Circles I/II and Cathars/Sieges/Besiegers will look more like the River I and Wind Roses sections do now, with little boxes separating out any differences between the sets and a multi-part tile guide at the end.

nice.
obervet,
do you need help with the consolidation of the other minis, or is it enough help with my example of the Crop Circles I + II?

obervet · « **Reply #43 on:** January 06, 2015, 09:58:54 AM »

Quote from: kettlefish on January 06, 2015, 09:45:48 AM

Quote from: obervet on January 06, 2015, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: nanoanno on January 05, 2015, 04:38:59 PM
I also love the mock-up of Crop Circles I and II that kettlefish put together. It's super helpful for someone who is trying to figure out exactly what it is and provides all of the information in one place. Plus the tile distribution is great for knowing which Crop Circle set you have (something it took me a while to figure out back in the day).

I agree, the consolidation will help. Basically Crop Circles I/II and Cathars/Sieges/Besiegers will look more like the River I and Wind Roses sections do now, with little boxes separating out any differences between the sets and a multi-part tile guide at the end.
nice.
obervet,
do you need help with the consolidation of the other minis, or is it enough help with my example of the Crop Circles I + II?

I can take it from here. Cut and Paste are two of my best friends, so this shouldn't be too bad.

kettlefish · « **Reply #44 on:** January 06, 2015, 10:28:42 AM »

Ok,
obervet, do you need some more historical and background information about the differences for some of the minis (Windroses I+II, Cathars/Sieges/Besiegers, Festival...) ?