Poll

Will the C2 rules for Halflings consider the clarifications provided by Georg Wild in 10/2015?

Yes, HiG will solve all the issues
6 (27.3%)
No, a layout upgrade of the C1 printed rules is good enough
5 (22.7%)
No clue, HiG will surprise us once more
11 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)  (Read 16754 times)

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2020, 07:07:50 AM »
Why do Halflings always provoke such mood swings?  >:D

There are enough tiles to create chaos but too few to solve all issues they create... So this tension between collaboration and confrontation is good for the game... in my humble opinion.
That’s because it’s sooooo wild!! :D


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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2020, 08:37:31 AM »
Well we are playing at home, rules, which we call as strict C2 rules.
For example:
1. As described in C2 rules, monastery is available for scoring only if outer squere of 8 tiles arround monastery is perceft squere. Same rule we apply for all of simmilar situations as Cult / German Castles / Monastery buildings (DE/NL/JP) / Barber Surgeons.

2. Barn can be placed only only on right angle (90°) of Halfling.

3. When strictly said in rules, that it's counted tiles - we count each halfling when not we count squere place even if one or two Halfling places in same squere

Basicly we solve all of our issue, but we have still not solved issue about placing second Halfling to same squere with previousle placed halfling with Hill.
If second halfling is on Hill or not. Another issue is place Hill halfling next to already placed Halfling to same squere.

For these two unanswered question we play Hills by house rules:
1. We don't place tile beyond tile with Hill.
2. All tiles and only tiles with Hill are counted as tile with Hill.

This solved problematic Halfling Hill tile placement. Both scenario:
1. If first is Hill - second is without
2. If second is Hill - first keeped without Hill
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2020, 11:18:46 AM »
Well we are playing at home, rules, which we call as strict C2 rules.
For example:
1. As described in C2 rules, monastery is available for scoring only if outer squere of 8 tiles arround monastery is perceft squere. Same rule we apply for all of simmilar situations as Cult / German Castles / Monastery buildings (DE/NL/JP) / Barber Surgeons.

2. Barn can be placed only only on right angle (90°) of Halfling.

3. When strictly said in rules, that it's counted tiles - we count each halfling when not we count squere place even if one or two Halfling places in same squer

Pretty strict rules! Life is much easier... You score per square tiles except for German castles, right?

Basicly we solve all of our issue, but we have still not solved issue about placing second Halfling to same squere with previousle placed halfling with Hill.
If second halfling is on Hill or not. Another issue is place Hill halfling next to already placed Halfling to same squere.

For these two unanswered question we play Hills by house rules:
1. We don't place tile beyond tile with Hill.
2. All tiles and only tiles with Hill are counted as tile with Hill.

This solved problematic Halfling Hill tile placement. Both scenario:
1. If first is Hill - second is without
2. If second is Hill - first keeped without Hill

I would just consider, as the rules say that the Halfling with the hill affects the whole square. It is odd if the Halfling with a hill was placed the second, but you are consistent...

In any case, fair enough if regular Halfling tiles don't get the hill effect from a neighbour tile...
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2020, 01:20:40 PM »
Well we are playing at home, rules, which we call as strict C2 rules.
For example:
1. As described in C2 rules, monastery is available for scoring only if outer squere of 8 tiles arround monastery is perceft squere. Same rule we apply for all of simmilar situations as Cult / German Castles / Monastery buildings (DE/NL/JP) / Barber Surgeons.

Pretty strict rules! Life is much easier... You score per square tiles except for German castles, right?

Thanks, and of course, for German castle it's perfect outer rectangle of 10 tiles arround German Castle.

I would just consider, as the rules say that the Halfling with the hill affects the whole square. It is odd if the Halfling with a hill was placed the second, but you are consistent...

In any case, fair enough if regular Halfling tiles don't get the hill effect from a neighbour tile...

So If C2 rules said it, then let it be this way. So each Halflings in same squere will apply Hill rules if any of this two Halflings have it.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2021, 02:26:49 AM »
Today I have speach with Freddy from HiG on Discord.
And he clarrified finished cloister with halflings in adjancent files doesn't matter on rotation of halfling.
Example picture.


Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2021, 04:15:24 AM »
So they re-confirm that monasteries consider occupied spaces for their scoring, not the number of neighboring tiles, right?

Did he say a word about double-sized tiles?  >:D

EDIT: Improved wording.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 03:49:33 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2021, 04:47:10 AM »
Not yet.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2021, 03:48:42 PM »
So they re-confirm that monasteries consider occupied spaces for their scoring, not the number of neighboring tiles, right?

Did he say a word about double-sized tiles?  >:D

Confirmed by Freddy (HiG) on HiG Discord server on 21 01 2021:

Quote


Q: Can we assume that monasteries A and B also score 9 points?
A: Yes, it's also 9 points. For every [occupied] space around the monastery 1 point (8 points) and 1 point for the monastery itself.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 03:55:00 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2021, 12:54:23 AM »
Ok. So I guess we can generalize this also for Double sized tiles and Halflings - point is for space not for tile
1. Monastery
2. German Castles
3. German Monasteries / Japanese Buildings + Dutch/Belgian monasteries (when plaing C2 rules ;D) - when figure is Monk
4. Baba Yaga's Hut

This also opens question about adjacent tiles for
1. Release of trapped meeple on Barber Surgeons tile

This also open question about coungin double sided tiles
1. German Monasteries / etc. - when figure is placed as Abbot

anybody can name another unsolved interactions ;-D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2021, 02:51:29 AM »
Ok. So I guess we can generalize this also for Double sized tiles and Halflings - point is for space not for tile

This is what we want to get (re)clarified... But we have two options: tile-oriented scorings and space/grid-oriented scorings. We will have to discuss each case...

1. Monastery

This was explained in the rules and re-confirmed on Discord yesterday.

2. German Castles

This was assumed as a conclusion after the rules for Halflings. A tile-oriented approach would not make sense at this point. It would be great to confirm it officially.

3. German Monasteries / Japanese Buildings + Dutch/Belgian monasteries (when plaing C2 rules ;D) - when figure is Monk

Same as for regular monasteries. Consider also abbeys, shrines and Darmstadt churches in the same lot.

4. Baba Yaga's Hut

It always considered empty (square) spaces, so there will be no change. So tile geometries never had an impact on them. If any clarification would be required, we should contact Hobby World, but I don't think there is any doubt in this case as per the definition of the rules in this case.

Check the rules here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition)#Baba_Yaga.E2.80.99s_Hut

This also opens question about adjacent tiles for
1. Release of trapped meeple on Barber Surgeons tile

The rules indicate the bathhouse has to be completely the same as a monastery... So bathhouses follow a grid-oriented apporach too: you need to occupy the adjacent spaces only. Check here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Barber-Surgeons#1._Completing_a_bathhouse

Quote
If a player places the last Land tile surrounding a bathhouse (the same way you complete monasteries), the Meeple placed in the bathhouse can be taken back immediately and for free.

This also open question about coungin double sided tiles
1. German Monasteries / etc. - when figure is placed as Abbot

Extrapolating from monasteries, these features had followed different approaches:
- Rules from 2014: Grid-oriented scoring
- Clarifications from 10/2015: Tile-oriented approach
- Rules from 2020: Back to grid-oriented scoring? You only count a stretch of occupied spaces. However, here the reference is how tower ranges are considered... We certainly need to clarify this.

anybody can name another unsolved interactions ;-D

I'm adding to the equation both halflings and double-sized tiles:

* Regular scoring for cities and roads (Base game): Validate that each tile counts individually (tile-oriented scoring for halflings). It is assumed from the wording, but it will never hurt to be sure 100%.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings#3._Scoring_a_feature
Quote
If you complete a feature with half-sized tiles, it is scored according to the normal rules.

* Connectivity in fields (Base game): Is a triangular gap defining field borders? I would assume yes... My current is that the read meeples are in different fields in the following example:


The underlying question here is how triangular gaps are considered: they are not a proper gap for some scorings (grid-oriented approach) but they work as gaps for some others (tile-oriented approach). Getting too philosophical here?

* The movement of the dragon+placement of the fairy (Exp. 3) and the plague (The Plague): They should be also tile-oriented unless there is a new rules change after the clarifications from 10/2015.


* Tower ranges (Exp. 4) and flier ranges (Mini #1) - how ranges are computed: It should also be tile oriented scoring for halflings and double-sized tiles. Are we going to consider two halves in a German castle tile or in a road on a Market of Leipzig tile? I would say no. There are very interesting cases here:


* Placing an abbey (Exp. 5): There should be no change after the rules for monasteries. We are considering occupied spaces.

* The barn and field connectivity (Exp. 5):
   - A barn can be placed on any tile intersection where the for corners are occupied (by square tiles, haflings or a double-sized tile) as per the clarification from 10/2015. Is this still valid. I would say yes for the sake of simplicity and common sense.
   - Depending how triangular gas are considered for field connectivity, barns can have different effects on field continuity. Example: Here you may consider an intersection with two separate fields. If you place a barn there, does it connect the fields or should be consider the barn is placed in two fields at the same time?

My suggestion in WICA was that the barn should connect the fields since the rules always assume a barn is placed in one field...  This requires a clarification for sure.

* Bridges (Exp. 8 ) and halflings: There is an issue with bridges and halflings: If the road connected to the bridge loops back and passes under the same bridge, the road underneath would count as two tiles and the one passing over the bridge should have the same number of tiles too. In a tile-oriented approach, the bridge should count as 2 tiles but in a grid-oriented tile, it should count as one tile? This also affects the position of a meeple on the bridge. We certainly need a clarification for this... And this affects how roads and cities are scored too.
Maybe tiles should not be allowed across halflings...  :o

* Little buildings (Little Buildings):
   - In a tile-oriented approach little buildings affect only the tile they are on. This would make sense with halflings and double-sized iles.
   - If for some reason we turn back to a grid-oriented approach, little buildings would affect a whole square (thinking of halflings) in the same way as hills. Would would happen in this case with double-sized tiles?

So just a few ideas...  ;)

EDIT: Added the fairy.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 05:05:40 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2021, 04:24:58 AM »
That barn is interesting, but I guest, this is not correct placing, because for the, that are 4 different fields, because there is still possible to place Halflings with city on regular edge.
Different situation was clarification on image A example 2 and example 3, where there is not possible to place city halfling under barn in another turn.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2021, 04:34:15 AM »
Once you place the barn, no city edges can be placed at that intersection for the sake of consistency... You would only be allowed to place corners with fields... The same restriction buy applied the other way round...

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2021, 04:39:37 AM »
* Bridges (Exp. 8 ) and halflings:
Maybe tiles should not be allowed across halflings...  :o

After reading rules, I think so.

You can place bridge to:
1. on the tile you placed
2. on a tile adjacent to the tile you placed

So there is no possibility in rules of bridge to place
1. on halfling you placed - because it has to be also placed to already placed halfling
2. over two already placed halflings which are adjacent to the tile you placed - this is against rules

In this case there will be tricky situation placing bridge like on image.
Update: I made 2 turns to show hat it can happend
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 05:06:07 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2021, 04:41:17 AM »
Once you place the barn, no city edges can be placed at that intersection for the sake of consistency... You would only be allowed to place corners with fields... The same restriction buy applied the other way round...

Well and we are also back on situation of placing hill Halfling neer to left space keeped by previous placed Halfling :D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 04:57:27 AM by Bumsakalaka »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Carcassonne - Halb So Wild (neue Edition)
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2021, 04:57:49 AM »
Yes... This is another issue to be clarified...


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