Carcassonne Central

Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: JT Atomico on November 09, 2013, 08:48:47 AM

Title: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: JT Atomico on November 09, 2013, 08:48:47 AM
Very quick rules question. When scoring for the King (from King & Robber Baron) at the end of the game, do you get one point for the City of Carcassonne itself (from Count of Carcassonne)?

My guess is that you should, since this city is counted for farms at the end of the game, according to footnote 68 of S-CAR v6.3:

Quote
68 The city of Carcassonne does count when scoring farms at the end of the game.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: obervet on November 13, 2013, 09:55:18 AM
I would agree with your assessment -- if it's enough of a city to get farm points for it, you should definitely be able to get a King point from it. Interesting that this hasn't officially come up before (to my knowledge)...
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: Scott on November 14, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
The King scores a point for every completed city. Although the City of Carcassonne is complete, it was not completed by anyone during the course of the game. It was complete from the beginning of the game. On those grounds, I don't expect it would be worth a point to the holder of the King tile.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: wicke on November 18, 2013, 02:02:50 AM
Scott: why should the City of Carcassonne be counted for farmers but not for the King ?
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: aenima on November 26, 2013, 09:22:06 AM
hello to everybody!
mmmm so? count or not?  :)
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: obervet on November 26, 2013, 10:09:59 AM
For the time being, I think you'll have to house rule it. Obviously I have my own opinion and reasoning (see above), but at this point it looks like players will just have to agree to a ruling when the game starts. I have added the question to the official list for kettlefish's next chat with HiG, and I have added a dreaded red footnote to the upcoming CAR (which I should get out in December).
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: Fritz_Spinne on November 26, 2013, 01:38:26 PM
Scott: why should the City of Carcassonne be counted for farmers but not for the King ?

You have to fight for the field, so you have to do something for it. If the city of Carcassonne should count for the King the first time you get the King tile would be if you complete a city of 13 tiles because the City of Carcassonne has 12 tiles.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: JT Atomico on November 26, 2013, 02:52:12 PM
If the city of Carcassonne should count for the King the first time you get the King tile would be if you complete a city of 13 tiles because the City of Carcassonne has 12 tiles.

I disagree with this. The rules say:

Quote
The King starts the game at the side of the playing field. As soon as a player completes the first city, he or she should take the King tile. If, during the course of play, another player completes a larger city - which means he or she places the final tile of this city - then he or she receives the king.

It is clear then that only cities completed by players count towards ownership of the King.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: Fritz_Spinne on November 26, 2013, 10:53:10 PM
I wrote:
Quote
If the city of Carcassonne should count ...

I didn't say that I'd agree to this, but it shows why it is unreasonable to count the City of Carcassonne for the King points.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: JT Atomico on November 27, 2013, 12:11:27 AM
I wrote:
Quote
If the city of Carcassonne should count ...

I didn't say that I'd agree to this, but it shows why it is unreasonable to count the City of Carcassonne for the King points.

What I'm saying is that I don't agree that one leads to the other. It is possible to consider completed cities separately form cities that are completed by a player.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: JT Atomico on November 27, 2013, 12:15:42 AM
I have added a dreaded red footnote to the upcoming CAR (which I should get out in December).

Nooooo! That wasn't what I wanted when I asked the question...

I don't think we need it, I've been reading up a bit more and I think that the answer can be deduced from the current rules and clarifications.

The rules for farms say:

Quote
The owner (or owners) of the farm score 3 points for every completed city which borders the farm, or lies within it.

and the relevant footnote says:

Quote
The city of Carcassonne does count when scoring farms at the end of the game.

From that we can infer that the city of Carcassonne counts as a completed city. The rules for the King say that:

Quote
At the end of the game, the player in possession of the King scores 1 point for every completed city.

so, since the city of Carcassonne is a completed city then it should be worth one point to the King at the end of the game.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: Fritz_Spinne on November 27, 2013, 07:19:51 AM
I'm not a native speaker, but I think the City of Carcassonne was ever a complete city, but it was never completed.


Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: JT Atomico on November 27, 2013, 01:48:19 PM
I'm not a native speaker, but I think the City of Carcassonne was ever a complete city, but it was never completed.

Fritz, the point that I was trying to make was that both rules (for farms and for the King) talk about completed cities, so the City of Carcassonne should be treated the same for both. Hence since it is counted as a city for farms, it should also be counted for the King.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: wicke on November 28, 2013, 12:20:55 AM
I agree with you JT Atomico, 100%.
I don't see why Fritz was talking about the ownership of the King, that was never the issue.
The issue was that the City of Carcassonne should be counted both for farmers and the King, at the end of the game.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: 24hourpartymeeple on November 28, 2013, 05:24:01 AM
Where in the official rules does it state that the City of Carcassonne is counted for farming?
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: MrNumbers on November 28, 2013, 05:54:29 AM
Where in the official rules does it state that the City of Carcassonne is counted for farming?

Footnote Nr. 68:
Code: [Select]
The city of Carcassonne does count when scoring farms at the end of the game.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: kettlefish on November 29, 2013, 04:48:46 AM
Where in the official rules does it state that the City of Carcassonne is counted for farming?

Footnote Nr. 68:
Code: [Select]
The city of Carcassonne does count when scoring farms at the end of the game.
I had a short telephone call with Georg Wild - HiG - today:

The city of Carcassonne does count when scoring the points for the king and also when scoring for farms at the end of the game.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: 24hourpartymeeple on November 29, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
Yes, I saw in the Annotated Rules that it says it but I did not see anywhere in the rules that came with the Count make mention of this. That's all I was asking. If the answer came directly from HiG, I'll take it as official but it would help if mentioned in a rule book that comes with the expansion.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: JT Atomico on November 29, 2013, 09:40:59 AM
@24hourpartymeeple, lots and lots of stuff in the CAR is not in the official rules that come with the expansions. That's kind of the point :)
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: 24hourpartymeeple on November 29, 2013, 11:37:26 AM
@24hourpartymeeple, lots and lots of stuff in the CAR is not in the official rules that come with the expansions. That's kind of the point :)

I get what you're saying and I'm glad the CAR exists but I'm willing to bet that only a fraction (say, 5%) of players know of it and check it for rulings. Average players and families will not use that rule (or others in the CAR but not in the physical rules) when they play. I just think that if its a rule it should be in the included rules.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: evmillan on November 29, 2013, 12:38:32 PM
@24hourpartymeeple, lots and lots of stuff in the CAR is not in the official rules that come with the expansions. That's kind of the point :)

I get what you're saying and I'm glad the CAR exists but I'm willing to bet that only a fraction (say, 5%) of players know of it and check it for rulings. Average players and families will not use that rule (or others in the CAR but not in the physical rules) when they play. I just think that if its a rule it should be in the included rules.

I think that a lot of questions appears when the people plays with some expansion and they find singular situations. It's too hard try to imagine all possible scenarios when the publishers are planning the new expansions and writing the rules. You help to build a game playing it.
This is another reason to promove in other forums the wonderful CAR.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: Scott on November 29, 2013, 05:36:38 PM
I've never seen such intense debate over a single point. ;D

As evmillan said, our hope is that more people will be made aware of the CAR and make use of it when they play. It's not cost-effective for the publishers to improve the printed rules to the same level of quality as the CAR, so we'll be in business for a very long time.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: 24hourpartymeeple on November 30, 2013, 09:40:25 AM
@24hourpartymeeple, lots and lots of stuff in the CAR is not in the official rules that come with the expansions. That's kind of the point :)

I get what you're saying and I'm glad the CAR exists but I'm willing to bet that only a fraction (say, 5%) of players know of it and check it for rulings. Average players and families will not use that rule (or others in the CAR but not in the physical rules) when they play. I just think that if its a rule it should be in the included rules.

I think that a lot of questions appears when the people plays with some expansion and they find singular situations. It's too hard try to imagine all possible scenarios when the publishers are planning the new expansions and writing the rules. You help to build a game playing it.
This is another reason to promove in other forums the wonderful CAR.

I agree and many rules questions have come up in our own games that I've referred to the CAR for answers. Its a wonderful, comprehensive tool and I'm not debating rules issues or the need for publishers to publish every scenario in the included rules. Especially with further along expansions. Bridges, Castles and Bazaars would come with a book as opposed to the sheet it did, if that were the case.

My point being that if they wanted the Count's city to count for farm scoring, they should have mentioned it in the included rules. That's not a scenario rules question based on different players playing with a different mix of expansions. It sounds like a hard line rule that should have been included, much like the basic, essential rules of any expansion.

I'm not trying to debate or pick a fight with anyone, nor am I ragging on anyone who contributed to the CAR. I just think it should have been mentioned if it were an actual rule, as opposed to tacked on later when the publisher got asked about it. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: 24hourpartymeeple on November 30, 2013, 09:42:26 AM
I've never seen such intense debate over a single point. ;D

As evmillan said, our hope is that more people will be made aware of the CAR and make use of it when they play. It's not cost-effective for the publishers to improve the printed rules to the same level of quality as the CAR, so we'll be in business for a very long time.

Of course the publisher can't predict a future scenario and amend a manual for it. The CAR is incredibly useful and I've read through it myself and turned more than a few players in this direction to find it themselves for their own questions.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: kettlefish on November 30, 2013, 11:23:59 PM
The publisher of this game is a German company. The game is translated in more than 20 other languages.

If HiG would change the rules after each question and clarification, then they have to give their license partners around the world the new German rules for translation.
I think the price for the game would then to much expensive.

HiG has some new rules online at their Homepage:
Princess and the Dragon - in German of course...
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: obervet on December 03, 2013, 07:58:44 PM
I had a short telephone call with Georg Wild - HiG - today:

The city of Carcassonne does count when scoring the points for the king and also when scoring for farms at the end of the game.

This has been updated in the nearly completed S-CAR v6.4.
Title: Re: Does the City of Carcassonne count for the King?
Post by: Carcking on December 05, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
Good debate here. I enjoyed reading it.

I personally would probably include the city for both, for simplicity's sake. I can't say we've ever played with both the Count of Carcassonne and the King, but not knowing otherwise intuition would say to count the city for both for simplicity.