Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: cidervampire on April 16, 2016, 07:20:54 PM
-
If a flyer moves diagonally down the diagonal split of two adjoining halfling tiles does it count it as two tiles (if so where would it land if it only moved one space) one tile or no tiles (it sneaks down the split!)
-
I totally agree with Christopher on the rules especially if we already have set rules in place for the BC&B castle pieces for things like fliers, towers etc.
The barn placement makes perfect sense in that the long edge already provides 'two corners' if we treat the GC as two tiles.
A other way to think of the barn is to look at how we treat it with the WoF and City starter tiles. Do they count as one or as 9/12 respectively?
The answer to that and how we treat the castles in BC&B with many features should give us the answer to this original question about builders and their interaction with the component
-
WoF and Count are a completely different thing. First, they count as seperate tiles. Count in it's common form, are even seperate tiles, while in WoF the borders are drawn onto it. The more important issue, nevertheless, is, that the "double tile" is placed upfront. You have to lay the "third" tile and therefore open potential barn options for other players. Or leave the spot like it was, and nobody can place the barn on next turn. (Unless doing some combo with builder, which is first not that easy to pull off, and second depending on the luck of drawing a fitting second tile.) You could even place your castle right next to the City or WoF on your first turn, possibly as well connected to the pig tile from River II, if the "long edge applies as 2 corners" rule is taken.
-
My interpretation of German castles would have been that they are two tiles. That said I think the one tile rule has some merit. It makes the German castles more interesting tactically. It follows that this rule applies ONLY to German castles. Therefore two matching halfling tiles should be treated as a single tile. The 12-tile city of Carcassonne should be treated as 4x3 (even if it is a tableau) and so on.
My understanding is that with Carc II they missed an opportunity. They should have hired a rules lawyer to rewrite the base rules so that how expansions are interpreted is clear and to have a system of noting stepping on canon name-space.
-
My understanding is that with Carc II they missed an opportunity. They should have hired a rules lawyer to rewrite the base rules so that how expansions are interpreted is clear and to have a system of noting stepping on canon name-space.
Surely this is what makes the game of Carcassonne one of the best and most versatile! Since the rules aren't always clear, it brings people togetger from all ovrr the worlf to have these discussions.
If the rules were as clear as day, I don't really think many forums would have much going for them beyond sharing experiences, expansion/variant creations or organising games
-
The 12-tile city of Carcassonne should be treated as 4x3 (even if it is a tableau) and so on.
There is no doubt about that. It is still the same expansion, just a "special edition", which the same rules aply to as ever. Furthermore, there is not a single feature on the tile, which would count as "2 tiles". The only rule, where it makes a difference is with cloisters and similar features. But if you place a cloister for putting a monk on, you normally look out for spots, where there are at least 4 tiles already connecting, anyway. So, it would make no sense, regarding an edge, denying the 3 points, which could be made by a connection to this big starting tile, and reducing it to just one point. But like I wrote before: it makes the whole difference, when you place a big tile during the game, even more so, when it's a tile from your supply, not a randomly drawn one.
-
If a flyer moves diagonally down the diagonal split of two adjoining halfling tiles does it count it as two tiles (if so where would it land if it only moved one space) one tile or no tiles (it sneaks down the split!)
To answer Cidervampire's question, at the moment it is undefined. The easy bit is, if it falls into a void, it's returned to the player's hand. This is covered in the CAR (we'll see later).
Kettlefish has been kind enough to explain that tiles whether regular, German Castles or Halflings are one-tile regardless of their physical dimensions. She confirmed this last year, but there are many specific examples left unexplained.
Halflings introduce the problem of continuity into the landscape and decide if the small edge of the Halfling tile connected to the edge of a normal tile produces a continuous landscape. You also have to decide if Flyers can fly over null-space:
First, I'll describe what I mean by a continuous landscape. If you zoom infinitely close to the edge of a halfling and a normal tile. Do you think the features are connected?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Continuity_corner.png)
I'll now describe null-space. It's basically a gap in the landscape. Can a flyer fly over this gap in the landscape?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/NullSpace_1.png)
Let's check the CAR - It's not particularly clear. But I think the assumption is 'Yes' it can because, the CAR says:
If the follower cannot be placed (because only completed structures and field segments are present, or because there is not a landscape tile at the location of the flight’s end), the follower is taken back by the player and placed in his stock.
So that leaves us to think about two things:
If you think the halfling and regular tiles ARE connected, it seems reasonable that you can ignore the gap:
It looks like this:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Continuity_1.png)
But, If you accept this, then I think you also have to accept that this shows one continuous farm:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/FarmContinuity_1.png)
This doesn't feel right to me, because it also means these farms are all connected:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/FarmContinuity_2.png)
And interestingly can you put a Barn on that?
So the alternative, is to assume that the space isn't connected and the flyer must count out the spaces following the 'one-tile' rule:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Continuity2.png)
Which I think answers the question using our current understanding; I believe kettlefish also did an example similar to this for Dragon Movement.
Interestingly this leads to a really interesting null-space/1-tile problem, that also needs to be clarified:
If Flyers can fly over nullspace and a German Castle takes the space of one-tile: then it follows that a flyer can use the dimensions of a German Castle when flying over null-space:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/GC_nullspace_1tile_problem.png)
-
I think Flier can move over the gaps, but of course cann't be placed on a gap. The distance that the Flier will fly should be mesuared in common tile lehgth.
"If the small edge of the Halfling tile connected to the edge of a normal tile produces a continuous landscape?" In my opinion there is no a continuous landscape in such junction.
-
If a Carc II abbot is on a monastery with neighbouring vineyards, and the abbot is removed early, do the vineyards score? I would assume that little houses do as they score at the end anyway.
-
Hi Decar, thanks for the diagrams. In the example with the flyers going over the half tiles, what would happen if the flyer tile was above the one in your example and the angle of flight was diagonally down to the right? If you roll a 1, which half tile would you land on?
I think in the case of a void you would have to count it as one space per missing regular tile rather than play Schrodingers Tile and philosophise as to the whether there may be a castle or halflings there! ??? 8) ::)
-
Seems that the regular size of the tile is best, unless it's a German Castle then. But the Flyer is able to an 'exact number of tiles' in a given direction, so it may fly 1 German Castle Tile if necessary.
There's a few options with diagonals:
Let's get the easy one out of the way. We talked about null-space before and how flyers can traverse null-space:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_6.png)
Although a Flyer has to fly a 'number of tiles'. So, if halflings are 1 tile, and 2 are two then this seems logical:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyers_Diagonal_1.png)
However, if the diagonal was the other way and the tiles were connected this would make sense. Each halfling is 1 tile away and they're connected continuously through the other tile:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyers_Diagonal_2.png)
This leaves me wondering if this seems reasonable:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_5.png)
One of the halfling tiles is 2 tiles away, not one tile way, but perhaps it should be this:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_2.png)
What if neither are continuously connected, are they still 1 tile away then?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_4.png)
But before you start saying that null-space is size one and only one, don't forget this cloister is worth:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Clositer_Example.png)
17 points, because each Halfling is only one tile.
-
But before you start saying that null-space is size one and only one, don't forget this cloister is worth:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Clositer_Example.png)
17 points, because each Halfling is only one tile.
The CAR says: "If there are 2 triangular tiles in the same square “space”, they still only count as 1 point (together) for scoring a cloister."
-
The CAR has not been updated since Kettlefish spoke with Georg Wild last Essen
-
The CAR has not been updated since Kettlefish spoke with Georg Wild last Essen
Well I am currently lost.
-
It's earlier in this thread, here's a link:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727
I conjectured this a bit higher up when coming to terms with the 'one-tile' rule.
-
One day there will be a civil war in the Carcassonne community. :(
-
Every time you fix a rule with a corner case (literally) you make 4 new unexpected corner cases :(y)
-
I think in the case of a void you would have to count it as one space per missing regular tile rather than play Schrodingers Tile and philosophise as to the whether there may be a castle or halflings there! ??? 8) ::)
I have to admit that "Schrodinger's Tile" may be the funniest thing I hear today. It encompasses everything wrong with ruling the German Castle tiles as anything but two tiles.
House rule or not, I will always treat German Castles as two connected tiles in regards to movement and scoring, with the Castle itself considered off-limits to all invasive actions (Towers, Dragons, Plague, Flyer, etc.). There really is not other reasonable way to treat that tile and I feel Hans im Glück were simply wrong in stating what they stated – perhaps not understanding the long-term impact of such a ruling.
Similarly, I also will always treat a Halfing as 100% of the tile space for the purposes of everything above. As long as a single Halfling is in a space, that space is 100% filled for all intent and reasons except for completing Roads. Thus Dragons, Towers, Flyers, Plague, etc., all treat that space as one, regardless of whether there is one or two Halfling tiles in the space. Again, it's pure logic – the game cannot adequately and reasonably function without such a ruling.
I don't know why Georg Wild said what he did, but I cannot accept his ruling on these matters.
-
I don't know whether obervet has given up in disgust or is just recovering from the shock.
However one approach might be to support two colour-coded interpretations in the CAR. An official version and a community version.
-
A German Castle is still one tile.
You need only one players turn to "draw and place" a tile (the German Castle tile).
Move Wood phase - you can choose to place the meeple on the whole tile (not only on the left or right side of the castle tile) also in the middle of the tile.
And if the dragon comes - why should the dragon don't eat the meeple in the middle of that tile?
A players turn ended with the scoring. The scoring takes place when a feature is finished. Do you only score the finished features on the left side of the German Castle tile? or do you score also finished features on the right side of the German Castle if they finished at the same time like the feature on the left side of the German Castle?
Remember - with the house rule you have "2" tiles a left one and a right one...
-
It seems we have two main viewpoints.
cardboardism or "the 1-Tile view". A tile is a piece of cardboard whatever shape that may have (the City start tableau would be an exception). (A halfling next to a monastery counts as a whole tile because it is a tile.)
squarism or "the 2-Tile view". A tile is the geometrical shape of a normal tile. Thus a German castle is two tiles and a halfling is only half a tile. (A halfling next to a monastery counts as a whole tile because it has filled at least part of the tile-space next to the monastery.)
I can see that cardboardism opens up some interesting tactical issues, but seems to be much less intuitive and harder to remember the fiddly details. I am not clear what problems cardboardism is trying to solve.
-
A German Castle is still one tile.
Literally, I agree, but gameplay wise, I do not.
You need only one players turn to "draw and place" a tile (the German Castle tile).
But you don't "draw" a German Castle, you place it from your supply (like a Halfling or an Abbey). Therefore, while it does take one turn to do so, it does not necessarily count the same as placing a normal-shaped tile. While it may encompass two tiles, it is not a "place tile" action but a "place object in your supply" action.
Move Wood phase - you can choose to place the meeple on the whole tile (not only on the left or right side of the castle tile) also in the middle of the tile.
True, just like you can choose to place a meeple (or not) on any unclaimed feature of any carboard item you place, such as an Abbey or a Halfling. For placement purposes, you can claim anything on the double tile because you are claiming a feature on the "just-placed tile", as the rules outline. The rules do not specify the size of the tile and I am not arguing that the tile is literally two tiles, only that it should be treated as two (such as how the City is treated as 10 or the Wheel is treated as 12).
And if the dragon comes - why should the dragon don't eat the meeple in the middle of that tile?
Because that makes sense when the tile is otherwise treated as two tiles. Doesn't a Castle (from BC&B) essentially turn two tiles into one, allowing a player to sit between two tiles? I see this as an identical situation. The meeple is on neither tile so is immune to actions that negatively impact either.
A players turn ended with the scoring. The scoring takes place when a feature is finished. Do you only score the finished features on the left side of the German Castle tile? or do you score also finished features on the right side of the German Castle if they finished at the same time like the feature on the left side of the German Castle?
You score features that are finished regardless of where they are located on the board. When somebody finishes a feature attached to the German Castle, it is done. Period. I don't see where the tile is involved in this situation. Scoring is all about features. Do you mean does a Road score for the German Castle twice if it loops back to the German Castle? Perhaps. Honestly it hasn't come up in the two games I have played with German Castles. The ruling on German Cathedrals suggests that it should (although since the Cathedrals are undisputed single tiles, I actually do not like that rule).
Remember - with the house rule you have "2" tiles a left one and a right one...
I know. That's the point. I want them to be considered two separate tiles and I wish the artwork had drawn in a faint black line like in Wheel of Fortune to designate them as such. But the complications with expansions makes treating this as a single tile far more complicated that it should be. Understanding the implications is difficult enough, teaching it to others will result in this expansion never seeing the table if I stick by the single-tile rules.
I am not clear what problems cardboardism is trying to solve.
Me neither.
-
Onto a German Castle tile you can place a meeple in the middle of the tile for example as a farmer.
This German Castle doesn't divide the farm in the middle of the tile.
The German Castle tile has not a line in the middle of it - that means only one tile.
The Castle from BC&B has other game mechanics. And the two tiles are still two tiles only the small city is now a castle and a meeple can be placed on top of that castle.
But the roads are still on each tile and they are worth one point.
-
What if neither are continuously connected, are they still 1 tile away then?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_4.png)
There are a lot of different variants but I guess that Flier flies OVER tiles with constant velocity (1 common tile per 1 point on dice). If Flier reachs the tile with German castle he can be placed on any part of the tile. If Flier reachs tile that consist of two halflings he can be placed on one of them by choice.
But before you start saying that null-space is size one and only one, don't forget this cloister is worth:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Clositer_Example.png)
17 points, because each Halfling is only one tile.
I do not agree that two halflings connected as one common tile should be considered as two tiles. What is the meaning to score a cloister in such a way?