Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015

[kettlefish]

I've added an example picture for the flier and the German castle tile - see question No.6.

[Rosco]

I have to say i am with Dan on this and it will always be house ruled to that effect regardless of the official ruling.

It doesn't make me quite so angry as it makes Dan but it does exasperate me with the illogicality of it.  How can a 2 tile tile be crossed lengthways by a dragon as if it was half the size?  does he get more energy by flying over a double tile?  eve though he has to fly over a castle too? it doesnt make sense.  Equally how can a tower see round corners? or see further? like i said, it doesnt make sense!

In regards to having different rules relating to halflings - that is simply not true.  A dragon can cross a halfling with a half gap as it can go across the corner.  a tower can cross any gap.  the only slight anomoly is in regards to cloisters - but this is a special feature of the halfling which allows the player to score a half tile as a full tile in this case.   The other point is that if a halfling is counted as a full tile in all circumstances then it would be an illegal move to fill the triangular hole left by a single halfling - is this true?

i hope that makes sense

edit:  The images just posted for the flyer then goes against the idea that it is one tile/one point etc.  How can a tower kidnap someone off the orthogonal line but the flyer cant fly off the line of flight?  it is not consistant.  Also does the flyer get more power by flying over a castle therefore can fly further? i think not.
There is an answer which may satisfy both camps here - spacially it is 2 tiles but for scoring it is 1.  i.e. for a tower of flyer to cross it legthways it is 2 tiles but for a cloister it is one point.  what do you think?

[Hounk]

What I can’t accept is this:



That’s nonsense.

But that's, because you are thinking in "area" rather then in "tiles". A saloon car is still one car, and not two, even if it takes up the space of two. There's another tile laying game, "Castles of Mad King Ludwig", I'm not really familiar with, but I think, the tiles are of different shape, but they still count all as one room of a castle. The concept of Carcassonne with areas of the landscape coming out of the void, and holes, where no land area can be fit into, is completely abstract on it's own, so I wonder, what issues you have with a rule like this.

But since there is an issue, how about considering it like this: the landscape of Carcassonne is a flat projection. Seen from above there can be areas of the same space, which are actually bigger, because of hills or valleys. Consider the castle tiles as some simplified model (the base of the visuals of Carcassonne is perspectively simplified anyway, if you consider, that any tile can be placed in 4 different orientations) of a flat projection of an area, which in fact represents a hill.

[Decar]

If I fire a catapult token across the width of a GC tile; can I then move it an extra tile in that direction, because the extra width is considered 'free' space in relation to the other tiles?

Two half tiles can fit in the space of a single square.  Two tiles cannot fit in the space of a single square.

Considering a geometric series, If I keep halving the size of the tiles, they'll can still fit in the space of a single tile.  If I keep doubling the size of the tiles, I'll need an infinite amount of space to fit all the tiles in.

Also the Cloister Point scoring makes no sense; as I quoted before the Cloister rule is: "A monastery is complete when it is surrounded by tiles" - It does not state how many tiles surround it, only that the tile is surrounded.

[kettlefish]

it just contradicts with the halflings.. sorry to add to the discussion,

but halflings are actually 2 tiles being 1 tile (because it takes 1 square).. while castles actually is 1 tile being 1 tile.. (but takes up 2 squares..).


Lol 1 thing which i now read from this discussion is this: (see attachment)
so a barn is allowed in this case? because there are 4 intersections! (5!!)

thanks SRBO for your nice picture - I have added some example pictures for question No.9.
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With the halfling tiles / triangle tiles - there will come a great surprise...

[jungleboy]

If I fire a catapult token across the width of a GC tile; can I then move it an extra tile in that direction, because the extra width is considered 'free' space in relation to the other tiles?

Now you're just trolling. There's no way you actually play with the catapult.

 

[Decar]

...Maybe it would help...  But it's an example of an existing mechanic where something of length 2 is not length 1.

[benbever]

thanks SRBO for your nice picture - I have added some example pictures for question No.9.
------------------------------
With the halfling tiles / triangle tiles - there will come a great surprise...

I don't understand  the barn placement on german castle plus halflings in your example picture. Could you explain? I've added it as an attachement here.

1. This barn is on 4 corners and on 4 tiles, so it's ok.

2. This barn is on 3 corners and on 3 tiles (the german castle is 1 tile) so this would not be ok.

3. This barn is on 5 corners(?) and on 3 tiles (the halflings count as 1 tile per square even though there are literally 4 half tiles). A barn needs to be on 4 tiles, and (at least) 4 corners, so how is this ok? Or is the 4 corners criterium enough to allow the barn?

4. This barn is on 4 corners(?) and on 3 tiles. It's almost the same as diagram 3. Why is this not allowed, but diagram 3 is allowed?

[Decar]

The fourth picture is laughable - It's ok to place a barn on 5 tiles; but it is not OK to place it on 4 tiles.

This looks very different to the clarification earlier where it was ok to place a barn on 4 tiles if one of them is a halfling; but i take it it is not ok to place if there are 5 tiles are 2 halflings.  So I can't play my halfling into the space after if the barn is there already.

What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.

[Rosco]

What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.

Agreed

[Hounk]

What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.

But then it would be much to easy to place a barn, by simply placing your GC to a spot, with two corners of gras. Have you considered that? Case 2 is by far the most reasonable to happen. I don't think, that case 3 will ever be seen in an actual game. (Like the case, I mentioned before with the 4 halflings forming two field, which might be a spot for a barn.)

[Decar]

By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.

In the software trade we have a mantra that every time you fix a bug you introduce 2 new ones.  This is a great example of this:  German Castles had a small bug and by fixing it we have 15 new issues.

[benbever]

By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.

That cloister is worth 9 points. That is already covered by the rules.
Half a tile is worth 1 point (as if rounded up), and 2 halves in 1 square space is still worth 1 point (the 2 halves now count as 1 tile (See Halfling I and II note 406 in the CAS).
The German Castle tile is also worth 1 point, since it's 1 tile (just double the size).
I don't see how 2 half tiles counting as 1 whole tile "logically extends" to 1 double size tile counting as 2.

[Hounk]

I don't see this as much as a conflict. Technicaly, a spot around a cloister is sufficiently filled with just one Halfling. Placing an extra one is optional. You can do this, and might as well, if you need it to finish for another feature, but generally, it would be a waste for just one cloister bonus point. Also, a second Halfling can be placed after the cloister is completed and scored, by yourself or another player. The GC is a different matter, because placing it in a way to max the contact with cloister, you can speed up the finishing of your cloister. With a tile at your hand, you can play without drawing. This is a good thing, but I don't think, you should be granted an extra bonus by doubling the points for that placement.

EDIT: The attachment illustrates the (hypothetical) case, I was mentioning. IMHO, barn placement should be legal on that spot (as long, as the crossing is completely covered with gras and the placement of all Halflings themselves is legal, of course), but the barn might be served by two individual farms. In this case, it would be interesting to know, if a farmer connected to either of them, scores for both farms (because the barn serves kind as a connection of the farms), or just for the one, he is placed on.

[kettlefish]

At Spiel 2015 in Essen I talked with HiG - Georg Wild.

I told him, that the triangle tiles give us many problems...
I put two triangle tiles together. On each triangle tile is a road segment - both road segments continued the road:
I asked Georg Wild: How many points is this road worth?
He answered: 2 points

Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.