Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Gerry on August 03, 2014, 06:29:15 PM
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SpedInFargo
Does the River Itself Separate Two Farms?
« on: November 28, 2008, 04:55:48 pm »
I've scoured the printed rules and the annotated rules and searched the forum and haven't found any sentences that satisfy me on this question - can someone help out?
I know based on the CAR (question 30) and a post in this forum that a farm goes AROUND both the spring and the lake - that makes sense to me.
However, does is the river ITSELF a boundary between two farms? According to the rules, "farms are bordered by roads, cities, and the edge of the area" - but it doesn't say anything specific about whether the river itself. Depending on how the board grows around the river, this is a scenario that could come up...
Anyone point to something specific on this? We've been playing that the river is PART of a farmer's land... I can see arguments either way.
Thanks!
I spotted this old post in the archived forums today and as far as I can tell there is still no mention in the rules concerning rivers separating farms. You would think that with a 179 page CAR someone could find the space to say "The river does or does not separate a farm".
This particular item resonates with me because on my very first game with my wife and son, I disagreed with both of them over this very point. And the reason we had different opinions was because I was the only one of us who had actually taken the time to study the rules.
Is this officially documented anywhere?
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My best guess would be that from their perspective it's kinda applied that it does seperate the fields.
I did find proof, though in CAR v7.02 at page 63 annotation 172, describing one of the river tiles with a city over it:
172 The city bridge does not separate field segments. Only the river separates the field segments on this tile. Thus, there are 2 field segments on this tile. [This is logical, as similar city bridges in other expansions such as Abbey & Mayor do not divide the city underneath. – Chris O.] (1/2013)
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Yes well I am still using the CAR (V. 5.0B9) I downloded when I first got the game. Who would think a board game would have so many rule updates.
I am not contesting that the river in practice separates a field. It's just that when other items are explored in the rules in excruciating detail with diagrams showing in detail when a bush does or does not terminate a road it seems odd not to spell this out.
thanks Gerry
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With the spring and the lake in River 1 the farm goes around them. The same with the spring in River 2.
There is a spring tile included with the GQ#11 expansions (12 tiles with no special rules) which has a road leading away from the spring. This was specifically to address the problem of the river creating huge fields as the farm doesn't spread over the road (obviously).
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Gerry makes a good point which I believe should be addressed specifically in a direct way in the CAR...as one of the main goals of the CAR is clarity.
"This is The River expansion. The River feature in this expansion separates fields the same way Roads do..."
(I find it interesting that the only indication of this is found in an off-hand way buried in footnote 172 which clarifies another feature that one might assume separates fields (that city bridge). If it wasn't for that city bridge the River would not be clarified at all.)
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easy answer: a river is not a field - it is an other feature.
The rule says something like this: no follower can be placed on a river...
But the follower can be placed as a farmer, like usual.
In this sentences you see - that the river is a different feature than the field...
The river is blue and the field is green...
I don't see here a problem.
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From the CAR v 7.0-2 Page 16
Farms are separated from each other by roads, cities and the edge of the playing field –
this is important during the final scoring.
Would it be so hard to include the river in this statement.
Again I fully accept that in practice the river does separate.
Also I really like the river feature in the game, so much so, that my Dragon drowned under the river Mehrfleuss (when I printed off the river tiles and stuck them over my dragon tiles - in retrospect it might have been better to buy by a couple of extra mini expansions and use their tiles instead)
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easy answer: a river is not a field - it is an other feature.
The rule says something like this: no follower can be placed on a river...
But the follower can be placed as a farmer, like usual.
In this sentences you see - that the river is a different feature than the field...
The river is blue and the field is green...
I don't see here a problem.
Those are all round about attempts at saying what the official rules don't say...that the River divides Fields.
You or I don't see the problem because we are seasoned players and fans of Carcassonne. However, the absolute new beginner has no basis for making an assumption that the River divides Fields. The authors have presumed that it would or could be assumed. It is the job of the CAR to make such clarifications, and take away assumption.
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Footnotes clarifying the river's division of farms have been added to the CAR.
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Footnotes clarifying the river's division of farms have been added to the CAR.
Great, thanks
Now all we need is an update to the CAR to determine if all the Carcassonne expansions separate a player from too much of their money :)
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I don't understand the question....there would be no point in stating that a farm goes around the river end tiles, unless the river was the border of the farm.
If the river were not a farm border, then it would not go "around" the end tiles.
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Good point by the way, rfielder!
Simply some people don't like "implied" things, they need that everything is written in the rules undoubtedly. Like the note in microwave oven manual that states you aren't allowed to dry a cat in it.
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Yeah, I am with the last two posts. I always thought the whole purpose of the river in the first place was to divide farms. Thus, the river divides farms :)
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*singing*
In the river of Carcassonne
Where the fields divide
Building up a game start
For strategies to arise
(Sung to River of Babylon)
Sorry about this, but this thread I kept hearing this. :@
I am at a junction regarding the rules, though. Without having read the rules I always knew they do divide. Yet still, odd it's not mentioned in an obvious showcase within the rules.
But, CAR has now been updated with this as an annotation I believe. Thank you for this!
:meeple:
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I don't understand the question....there would be no point in stating that a farm goes around the river end tiles, unless the river was the border of the farm.
If the river were not a farm border, then it would not go "around" the end tiles.
Haha - Congratulations! You have pointed out another way to say the River divides Fields, without actually saying it. :(y)
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It was kind of an interesting oversight on the part of the publishers -- the only thing that the river does is divide fields, but that fact was never even mentioned in the rules for River I or River II. The original rules for River I didn't even include the bit about fields wrapping around the spring, as that was only included later as a footnote (and a rule in Big Box 1). Thus, initially there wasn't even a statement that allowed a player to infer the rule.
Sure, visually it makes sense that the river divides fields. But that line of reasoning doesn't even always hold up, as not all pig herds are actually pig herds...
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Also it isn't mentioned in the rules of the next coming BigBox 5.
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- the only thing that the river does is divide fields,
Actually it is possible that they introduced the river because they were using an inkjet printer that had all the different ink colours in the same in cartridge and they kept having to replace it because it was always running out of green but the blue ink was never getting used at all.
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Well...that could be one possibility...another is the River could simply have been some sort of bonus points for farmers who had the river running through their farm...watering livestock...irrigation...tranport of goods, etc. Who knows?
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"Carcassonne on Mars" possible spin-off discussion was moved into separate thread:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=951.0
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Well...that could be one possibility...another is the River could simply have been some sort of bonus points for farmers who had the river running through their farm...watering livestock...irrigation...tranport of goods, etc. Who knows?
Wasn't that a Hollywood movie?
"A River Runs Through It"
;)
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Sure, visually it makes sense that the river divides fields. But that line of reasoning doesn't even always hold up, as not all pig herds are actually pig herds...
Yes it does - it is called "common sense".
All pig herd tiles are pig herd tiles. It applies here as well.
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Sure, visually it makes sense that the river divides fields. But that line of reasoning doesn't even always hold up, as not all pig herds are actually pig herds...
Yes it does - it is called "common sense".
All pig herd tiles are pig herd tiles. It applies here as well.
But if Carcassonne operated solely on a basis of "common sense" then we would not need to have a CAR of 300 pages and 470 footnotes.
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But if Carcassonne operated solely on a basis of "common sense" then we would not need to have a CAR of 300 pages and 470 footnotes.
What makes you think that? Since expansions rarely are playtested with eachother there will be many situations which are strange. I do, however, think that the CAR does hold a lot of superfluous pages and paragraphes.
Anyway, rivers divide fields. If you do not believe me I encourage you to go outside and find out for yourself.
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But if Carcassonne operated solely on a basis of "common sense" then we would not need to have a CAR of 300 pages and 470 footnotes.
What makes you think that? Since expansions rarely are playtested with eachother there will be many situations which are strange. I do, however, think that the CAR does hold a lot of superfluous pages and paragraphes.
Anyway, rivers divide fields. If you do not believe me I encourage you to go outside and find out for yourself.
I am not arguing that the river, in practice, does not divide fields just that the rules did not include the river in the list of sructures that divide fields.
The current proposal in this thread that we add a footnote to the CAR to include the river is just fine as far as I am concerned.
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned that river does not divide fields in the winter edition because river freezes and farmers can cross on the ice!! :)
Very entertaining thread folks! Thanks :)
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I didn't know there was a river in the winter edition? ???
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I didn't know there was a river in the winter edition? ???
I knew there was no river, but was afraid to bring it up
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In the rules for the basic game, there you can find the definition of a field (it is a green feature).
A river is a different feature (blue).
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To quote Stan Lee
"Nuff Said"