Author Topic: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015 (Read 69523 times)

Rosco · « **Reply #75 on:** October 15, 2015, 06:56:18 AM »

what about a city that has the two triangles as in the above image but includes both city sections? if this was one single tile then the tile would be worth 2 points in a city even though there are 2 segments of city, however, by the above road ruling then this should be 2 points for each triangle in a completed city.
Kettlefish - why have you thrown another spanner in the works?

?

Hounk · « **Reply #76 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:02:45 AM »

Quote from: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 06:43:14 AM

Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.

But with this, he contradicts earlier statements by HiG. So two Halflings forming the shape of one regular tile in the surrounding of a Cloister lead now to the case, that the Cloister is scorning 10 points, if completed later in the game?

danisthirty · « **Reply #77 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:05:29 AM »

Quote from: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 07:02:45 AM

Quote from: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 06:43:14 AM
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
But with this, he contradicts earlier statements by HiG. So two Halflings forming the shape of one regular tile in the surrounding of a Cloister lead now to the case, that the Cloister is scorning 10 points, if completed later in the game?

WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...

kettlefish · « **Reply #78 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:06:38 AM »

I have updated my posting with a new picture:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727

kettlefish · « **Reply #79 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:09:10 AM »

What can I say - the rules were not clear enough - now it is easy with the triangle tiles. A tile is a tile even if it is a triangle tile or if it is double long or what else.

The German castle tiles have no line in the middle of the tile - that is the reason why they are still one tile and no like "two tiles".

benbever · « **Reply #80 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:10:21 AM »

Quote from: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 06:43:14 AM

Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.

I wouldn't mind if each tile surrounding a cloister would be worth 1 point. Even the half ones. After all they're tiles. Why would 2 half tiles in different spaces be worth 2 points, and 2 halves in 1 square space be worth 1 point? But the rules (the german ones that came with halb so wild) explicitly explain 2 halves together is worth 1 point for cloister scoring (with an example even).
I get why they have the rule that a space with one half counts as finished for a cloister, but I don't really understand why they included the 2 halves in 1 space counts as 1 cloister point rule.

Quote from: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 05:40:00 AM

the barn might be served by two individual farms. In this case, it would be interesting to know, if a farmer connected to either of them, scores for both farms (because the barn serves kind as a connection of the farms), or just for the one, he is placed on.

Interesting situation, I'd like an answer for this as well. I'm guessing since the fields are not connected the farmers just score their own field. The barn in this pretty unique case is on two farms.

Decar · « **Reply #81 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:10:39 AM »

So

The Barn in 1) has 4 tiles so the barn can be placed
The Barn in 2) has 3 tiles and cannot be placed
The Barn in 3) has 5 tiles and SHOULD NOT be placed
The Barn in 4) has 4 tiles and SHOULD be placed

Decar · « **Reply #82 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:15:05 AM »

Quote from: danisthirty on October 15, 2015, 07:05:29 AM

WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...

This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction. Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0

danisthirty · « **Reply #83 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:17:46 AM »

Quote from: Decar on October 15, 2015, 07:15:05 AM

Quote from: danisthirty on October 15, 2015, 07:05:29 AM
WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...

This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction. Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0

...plus there still seems to be a certain amount of confusion amongst some people about how farms are scored since there have been three different versions since the game first came out.

benbever · « **Reply #84 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:20:14 AM »

I made a comparison between the consequences of the German Castles is 1 tile rule, and the suggested German Castles counts as 2 tiles rule.

Current "counts as 1 tile" rule.

-Cloisters are a bit easier to finish, but could score only 8 or even 7 points.
-The dragon (and fleas) are a bit more maneuverable, on a german castle they have 5 directional options and it can be used as a bit of a shortcut.
-The flier can fly 3 tiles, but with an aligned german castle tile he can cover more distance, and with a perpendicular german castle tile he can be place on a feature "around the corner" as long it's on the german castle tile he landed on.
-The tower range counts in tiles, so if a german castle tile is aligned the tower can reach further in length to that side, and if the german castle tile is perpendicular the tower can grab followers "around the corner" as long as they're on the german castle tile that is within reach.
-German/Dutch klooster scoring range can be extended with an aligned german castle by 2 in "tile length" but it's only worth 1 point (1 tile).
-A road from the german castle tile that loops back to the german castle tile is worth 1+(number of road tiles).
-A barn can't be placed on the long side of a german castle tile and 2 other tiles (rule not yet confirmed.)

Alternative "counts as 2 tiles" rule.

-Cloisters are a bit easier to finish, and score the usual 9 points.
-The dragon (and fleas) are as fast as usual, players need to remember that the single german castle tile counts as two.
-The flier can fly 3 tiles, players need to remember that the single german castle tile counts as two tiles. If the german castle tile is aligned he can only fly the length of the german castle tile (2) and 1 more tile, if the german castle tile is perpendicular he can only land on one half of it.
-The tower range works as usual, players need to remember that the single german castle tile counts as two tiles. If the german castle tile is aligned along the tower range than the tower needs an extra piece to capture the furthest half (2nd tile) and if the german castle tile is perpendicular then one half of the tile is always out of reach of that castle.
-German/Dutch klooster scoring range can be extended with an aligned german castle by 2 in "tile length" and it'll be worth 2 points (counts as 2 tiles).
-A road from the german castle tile that loops back to the german castle tile is worth 1+(number of road tiles) if it loops the the starting half, and 2+(number of road tiles) if it loops to the other half of the german castle tile (counts as the second tile).
-A barn can be placed on the long side of a german castle tile since it now counts as 2 tiles. This does make placing barns a lot easier, since every player gets 1 or 2 german castle tiles. 4 out of 6 german castle tiles have a long side with 2 fields, and the other 2 even have 2 long sides with 2 fields.

-There is an additional problem with the dragon, fleas, flier and tower (and maybe others); it's unclear if the follower that is on the german castle is on one of the halves, both of them, or between them.
--If it is on one of the halves then that needs to be decided when placing the tile. Placing the follower on one side feels against the theme of the german castles. Half of the german castle can be in range of a tower or occupied by the dragon, while the follower is safe on the other half of the castle on the other tile.
--If it counts as if it is on both, then it basically acts like the "1 tile" rule, but just for the follower on the castle, not the other features on the tile.
--If it counts like in between (like the small city castles from the expansion) then it needs additional rules, where the follower is either counted as in between (even if it's on a tile) or where the castle is declared dragon-, plague- and towerproof.

imho The "1 tile" rule adds a fun and dynamic mechanism to the game, where tower reach and dragon movement can be manipulated a little bit and cloister scoring can be influenced a little bit. The additional problems/consequences are easily resolved. But I can see how some people don't like it for the same reasons.
The "counts as 2 tiles" rule doesn't add much to the game, just 2 tiled cloisters that score 12 points and some bonus points. But it does add the same problems/consequences, and with the follower in the castle even one that needs additional ruling. With this alternative rule I wish they'd just put the castle on 1 tile.

Decar · « **Reply #85 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:31:32 AM »

A more concise 2-tile summary:

1) The German Castles are 2 tiles; all rules apply as if they were 2 distinct tiles, placed at the same time.
2) Any effect which may take place on either of the 2-tiles can affect any followers located on the Castle situated in the middle of both tiles. (eg: The Dragon entering one half of the German Castle may eat any followers in the German Castle).

Hounk · « **Reply #86 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:31:57 AM »

Quote from: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 07:09:10 AM

What can I say - the rules were not clear enough

On some accounts, the rules get a little more complicated now, see Decars cases with different combos of Halflings and GCs.

Before it was basically, that on any account, where there is an issue of area coverage, may it be cloister, abbey or barn, two halflings next to each other are treated exactly equal to just one halfling tile (or a regular one). So that's also, why in "Case 4" the barn should not be placed, because the "hypotenuses" edge is a neglected edge, likewise it is "non existing". But if you count halfling tiles individually in this case, this should also be taken into account in this case.

I think, if you want to play GCs according to "2-tiles rules", you could also try a variant like this:
No GC is distributed to the players at the beginig of the game, but they are mixed and form a separate stack. Each time on one's turn, a player can skip the procedure of drawing a tile (basically loosing the turn) for getting the GC tile on top of the stack on the next turn. People can do this as often and whenever they want to, until the stack is depleted. Not sure, if this works out nicely and balanced, but it might be worth a try. Then of course, the tile should be treated as two tiles in every aspect, because you needed two turns to get it.

benbever · « **Reply #87 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:43:10 AM »

@Decar,
The point was a comparison between the consequences of both rule options. Not a concise summary of one of them. I do agree on the caste dwelling follower being on both tiles, and being dragon food or tower capture material, as the best (most logical/native) solution for the 2 tile option.

Quote from: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 07:31:57 AM

So that's also, why in "Case 4" the barn should not be placed, because the "hypotenuses" edge is a neglected edge, likewise it is "non existing".

I get why it should not be placed in "Case 4", but not why it is ok to place in "Case 3".

Hounk · « **Reply #88 on:** October 15, 2015, 07:48:45 AM »

I don't think, it's OK to place in Case 3, either. Because the main problem, that you "drop in" your barn on a double tile is exactly the same.

One "thrill"-aspect of playing with barn is, that you start hesitating placing a tile on a place, where 3 corners meet on a prosperous farm, so there is the danger, that a opponent get the necessary 4th tile to place the barn, before you have a chance to. Covering 2 corners on one tile makes it to easy to place the barn, and the halfling tiles do not all need to be placed, to make placement possible. That's my opinion.