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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: kettlefish on October 12, 2015, 09:23:21 PM

Title: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 12, 2015, 09:23:21 PM
I've got some answers from HiG (Georg Wild) at Spiel 2015 - 08 10 2015:

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Obervet gave me the questions in October 2015 by PM - this time 14 questions
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 12, 2015, 09:39:37 PM
1. Does a Halfling gap prevent spread of the Plague in that direction? (Probably not, as a lone Halfling seems to have full-tile status.)
No, a Halfling gabe does not prevent spread of the Plague.
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2. Can a barn be placed if one (or more) of the tiles at the intersection of corners are Halfling tiles?
Yes, a barn can be placed as long as 4 tiles touch at the intersection, even if there is one or more halfling tiles.

I will post some example pictures later.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 12, 2015, 10:15:50 PM
3. Do the German castles protect followers from the Dragon the same way that other castles do?
No - the German Castle doesn't protect followers from the Dragon. The German Castle has more a function like a cloister - it is on one tile, than less the function like a castle, which is between 2 tiles.
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4. Does a German castle count for farm scoring?
No, it doesn't count for farm scoring - see the explaination at 3.
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5. When the Dragon lands on a German castle tile (the double tile), does this whole tile count as a single tile for the purposes of movement?
The German castle tile is one single tile - so the dragon needs only one of his 6 moves for this tile and then he has more opportunities to continue his way.

The dragon is like a person in my opinion  - so I don't use "it" and "its" - I use "he" and "his".
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 12, 2015, 10:39:13 PM
6a. Does a German castle count as 1 tile or 2 for the purposes of moving a flier?
The German castle count as 1 tile. If the flier lands on this tile, than the flier has the choice of 3 roads, 1 city or the German Castle (the function or the mechanics of the German Castle is more like a cloister). The flier can only land on one of these features if it is not finished yet.
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6b. If the flier is moving diagonally, does it move in a straight line, or does it enter via one corner and exit via the far opposite corner?
The flight of the flier is diagonally in a straight line in that direction what the arrow shows from the fliying machine. The angle of the arrow doesn't change. It would change the angle to enter via one corner and exit via the far opposite corner  - and that is not the angle of the direction of the arrow from the flying machine symbol. If the flier lands on the German castle tile - then the flier has the choice of 3 roads, 1 city or the German Castle. The flier can only land on one of these features if it is not finished yet.


the picture with the German castle tile and the finished roads:
- The score for the road at the top of the German castle tile: 3 points + 3 bonus points for the involved German castle tile = total 6 points
- The score for the road at the bottom of the German castle tile: 2 points + 3 bonus points for the involved German castle tile = total 5 points
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 12, 2015, 11:26:16 PM
7. Does a German castle count as 1 tile or 2 for the purposes of tower kidnap range?
The German castle count as 1 tile for the range of the tower.
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8. Does a German castle tile count as only 1 tile for placing Plague tokens?
Yes, the German castle count as 1 tile for the plague tokens.
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I need a rest - more will follow...
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 13, 2015, 01:45:10 AM
Thanks kettlefish!

Rest well :)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 13, 2015, 11:40:06 AM
9. Does a German castle’s long edge count as 2 tiles for the purposes of barn placement? In other words, is the midpoint of a long edge counted as a corner that only needs 2 other tiles placed in order to build a barn?
This question is not yet resolved. Georg Wild and I had different opinions about it. So technically there are no 4  corners - the result of my opinion is NO. Gerorg Wild knows that, but he "feels" that the result will more a YES. So we will talk about it again.

the following 3rd picture shows my opinion of the situation with barn and German castle tile and triangle tiles.(Oct.2015)
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The question is now resolved with Georg Wild (HiG) and me. Here comes the result.(April 2016)

See the 1st picture which shows the possible and not possible placements for the barn if the German Castle tile with its long edge and triangle tiles are part of the landscape.

See the 2nd picture which shows some possible and not possible placements for the barn if the German Castle tile with its small edge and triangle tiles are part of the landscape.

The base ground for the barn has to be stable - that means in the middle all tiles have to touch each other - no quarter is empty in the middle - all tiles have farm in the middle for the placement of the barn.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 13, 2015, 11:48:50 AM
10. Does a German castle count as 2 tiles for the purposes of scoring a cloister?
No, the German castle tile is one tile and counts as one tile for scoring a cloister

with the answer of this question cloister and German castle tile - I then asked again HiG - Georg Wild about the triangle (halfling) tiles.
more about if follows in a new posting.
Here is the link to that posting:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727)

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12a. Can a wagon be placed on a German castle?
Yes, the wagon can be placed on a German castle.
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12b. Can a wagon drive to a German castle after completing a road that is connected to the German castle?
Yes, a wagon can drive to a German castle after completing a road that is connected to the German castle - as long as the German castle is not finished and no other follower owns it.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 13, 2015, 11:52:11 AM
11. Is the inn/cathedral bonus counted before the +3 bonus from a German castle? (Currently we have an unofficial “yes”.)
YES - now we have an "official" yes.
The score takes first place for the roads with inn and city with cathedral and then the +3 bonus from each German castle which is involved for these features.
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14. Does the rim of the Wheel of Fortune end a road?
Yes, the road ends / starts at the rim of the Wheel of Fortune.
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13. Can the barn (or other figure that is not technically a follower) be placed on the same turn as a bridge?
YES
The use of the wooden bridge is a part of the 1st part of a players turn - "draw and place a tile" - with the bridge a road expand.
The placement of a follower or other figures like barn, builder and pig follows in the 2nd part of a players turn "move wood" phase.

see the turn sequence from the BigBox3:


I've called with Georg Wild (HiG) a few weeks before.(April 2016)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 13, 2015, 11:53:44 AM
10. Does a German castle count as 2 tiles for the purposes of scoring a cloister?
No, the German castle tile is one tile and counts as one tile for scoring a cloister

So a complete cloister can only score 8 points if a German Castle is next to it?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 13, 2015, 11:54:04 AM
9. Does a German castle’s long edge count as 2 tiles for the purposes of barn placement? In other words, is the midpoint of a long edge counted as a corner that only needs 2 other tiles placed in order to build a barn?
This question is not yet resolved. Georg Wild and I had different opinions about it. So technically there are no 4  corners - the result of my opinion is NO. Gerorg Wild knows that, but he "feels" that the result will more a YES. So we will talk about it again.

I agree with you that it should be no for consistency purposes. In all other cases, German castles are being treated as one tile. Therefore, if there are two regular tiles alongside a German castle, this is not the intersection of four tiles but three tiles. And the CAR says: 'It [the barn] may only be placed on the point of intersection of four land tiles.'

Edit: For those joining us late in this thread, I have somewhat changed my mind about 1v2 tiles for the German Castles. Keep reading :)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 03:29:19 AM
These answers all make a lot of sense and follow from the "1 tile" rule. I play them the same way.

About 9; barn placement on 3 corners instead of 4, because of the long side of a castle:
I'd also say no.
It "looks" good at first, there's enough room for the barn, but it goes against a lot of rules.
-barn needs to be placed on for 4 corners (the place on the barn side has max 3 corners)
-barn needs to be placed on 4 tiles (with the castle it'd be 3 tiles)
-if the barn is allowed it would imply the castle counts as two tiles, and there's an invisible divide in the middle. This goes against pretty much all the other "counts as 1 tile" answers.

I'd say yes to 11, 13 and 14.

So a complete cloister can only score 8 points if a German Castle is next to it?
It can score 8 or 9 points depending on the orientation of the castle tile. With two castle tiles next to the completed cloister it could score between 7 points and 9 points (castle tiles facing away).
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 03:40:06 AM
Is the City of Carcassonne 1 or 12 tiles now; this will affect cloister scoring too.  What about the WoF?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 03:48:01 AM
9. Does a German castle’s long edge count as 2 tiles for the purposes of barn placement? In other words, is the midpoint of a long edge counted as a corner that only needs 2 other tiles placed in order to build a barn?
This question is not yet resolved. Georg Wild and I had different opinions about it. So technically there are no 4  corners - the result of my opinion is NO. Gerorg Wild knows that, but he "feels" that the result will more a YES. So we will talk about it again.

I agree with you that it should be no for consistency purposes. In all other cases, German castles are being treated as one tile. Therefore, if there are two regular tiles alongside a German castle, this is not the intersection of four tiles but three tiles. And the CAR says: 'It [the barn] may only be placed on the point of intersection of four land tiles.'

+1 from me. They've made a decision about the German Castles being 1 tile, even though they're clearly 2, so they might as well be consistent about it. If they were going to make an exception to this rule there are plenty of other places where it would make more sense to. SURELY GCs should count as 2 tiles when placed such that they occupy 2 of the spaces adjacent to a cloister. Doing anything else makes no sense to me whatsoever. Let's remember that the city of Carcassonne is now available as a single tile too. If you place a cloister adjacent to this does it mean that, potentially, the top 3 spaces only count for 1 point? It wouldn't if you used the 12-tile version of the city of Carcassonne...
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 03:51:06 AM
Also the English rules for Cloisters read: "A monastery is complete when it is surrounded by tiles."  It doesnt say surrounded by 8 tiles
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 03:57:04 AM
Is the City of Carcassonne 1 or 12 tiles now; this will affect cloister scoring too.  What about the WoF?
Both the Russian City of Carcassonne piece and the Wheel of Fortune piece have white lines on them indicating that they're separate tiles, just in one piece for ease of handling. The german castle tiles have no such line, and an extra rule that they count as 1 tile (of 1x2 size). The City and Wheel are 12 and 16 tiles respectively, just in one playing piece.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 04:39:08 AM
It can score 8 or 9 points depending on the orientation of the castle tile. With more castle tiles next to the completed cloister it could score between 5 points (cloister surrounded by 4 castles) and 9 points (castle tiles facing away).

It is not possible to score 5 points.  The first rule of the Castle is that they cannot be played with corners touching.  Thus four cannot fit around a cloister.

If a German Castle is only 1 tile, why does it score 2 points when it is completed?

Both the Russian City of Carcassonne piece and the Wheel of Fortune piece have white lines on them indicating that they're separate tiles, just in one piece for ease of handling. The german castle tiles have no such line, and an extra rule that they count as 1 tile (of 1x2 size). The City and Wheel are 12 and 16 tiles respectively, just in one playing piece.

The Russian Carcassonne City tile was given away from HiG at Essen; so shouldn't be considered the Russian City of Carcassonne tile any more.  There is no rule indicating that white lines or marks indicate separate tiles. The initial publication does not contain the extra rule regarding the Castles as one tile.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 05:41:54 AM
It is not possible to score 5 points.  The first rule of the Castle is that they cannot be played with corners touching.  Thus four cannot fit around a cloister.
True, a max of two castles can border a cloister, for 7 to 9 points for a completed cloister (with the rules in these answers). I edited my previous post.

As to why a castle tile is worth 2 points when counting a completed (surrounded) castle (always worth 10+2=12 points) and the same castle tile is worth only 1 point when around a cloister... I have no idea. Maybe it's a bonus point because the castle is harder to complete, or because it's a fancy castle?

If the castle tile *would* be worth 2 points around a cloister then completed cloisters could get 9 to 13 points (with 4 adjacent castles to the cloisters.)

Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.

It's worth noting that the castles in germany rules specifically explain the interaction with roads, cities and other castles (not allowed), but leave out cloisters. I get the idea the expansion is more promotional and less serious.

This also affects German Klosters and Dutch Kloosters. My guess is that they count as 1 tile (1 point) for those as well.

The Russian Carcassonne City tile was given away from HiG at Essen; so shouldn't be considered the Russian City of Carcassonne tile any more.  There is no rule indicating that white lines or marks indicate separate tiles. The initial publication does not contain the extra rule regarding the Castles as one tile.
I know about the HiG Carcassonne city piece, but I wasn't sure if it has the (white) lines on it, like the Russian version. The CAS refers to the WoF as a board consisting of 16 (4x4) tiles. And to Carcassonne city as a starting tile of 12 (3x4) tiles. I think the white lines are clear enough in their intent.
The Castle tiles are refered to as 6 double sized tiles in the rules. They're always called a single tile, just of double size. Never as 2 tiles in one piece or 2 tiles at once or 2 connected tiles.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 06:17:02 AM
Quote from: benbever
As to why a castle tile is worth 2 points when counting a completed (surrounded) castle (always worth 10+2=12 points) and the same castle tile is worth only 1 point when around a cloister... I have no idea. Maybe it's a bonus point because the castle is harder to complete, or because it's a fancy castle?

Perhaps the original designer thought it was 2-tiles, so when completed it was worth two-points.

Quote
If the castle tile *would* be worth 2 points around a cloister then completed cloisters could get 9 to 13 points (with 4 adjacent castles to the cloisters.)

Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.

This makes even less sense.  Rewriting the original base game rules to fit this mini-expansion is clearly careless.

Quote
The Castle tiles are refered to as 6 double sized tiles in the rules. They're always called a single tile, just of double size. Never as 2 tiles in one piece or 2 tiles at once or 2 connected tiles.

This is inaccurate.  The German rules call them "Doppel-Landschaftplättchen".  They are literally double-landscape-tiles; they should be considered as such: 2 landscape tiles.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 06:20:59 AM
I’ve been giving this some thought and there’s a lot I don’t like about the idea of the German Castle tiles being treated as one tile. I know that physically it’s only one tile and I’m trying to respect HiG’s wishes to stick to that, but in every other sense it is the equivalent of two tiles and there’s a lot that doesn’t work properly when you try to deny this. ???

For one thing, there’s towers. Now we’re saying that if a GC is orthogonally adjacent to a tower, the tower can reach further in one direction than it can in the other. Yes it’s the same number of tiles in each direction, fine, but in terms of the aesthetic of the game the tower is now wonky and aesthetics are very important to a lot of people here. Another thing that now bothers me about towers is that if half of the double-tile is orthogonally adjacent to a tower foundation and there is a meeple on the other half of the tile (which isn’t adjacent to the tower), can that meeple be captured even though it isn't directly orthogonally adjacent to the tower? I assume that it can because it’s one tile ::) and half of the tile is within reach of the tower. This isn’t in keeping with the theme and imagery behind the idea of the tower though.

Another ugly consequence is that the GCs now act as a kind of launchpad for the dragon. Normally he can move orthogonally in any direction by one tile. In most cases this gives him 3 options (except on his first movement of the phase in which it could be 4), but if he can reach a GC he now has 5 options and can travel across the board (in terms of actual distance rather than tiles visited) much more quickly, especially if he’s able to reach two GCs in the same turn! Similar inconsistencies will also be experienced with expansions such as The Fliers and German Monasteries.

Part of the joy of the game is that the landscape that develops is supposed to represent an actual countryside landscape. Pretending that two square kilometres is actually one square kilometre (or whatever the scale is) simply because a physical game tile that represents it is, is to introduce some major geographical distortions that will corrupt the game and spoil it for many players. :( :(n)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 06:25:39 AM
Good points Dan.  I've drawn up a diagram to explain how the tower's reach could be affected by the German Castle with the rule. 

On the left is Tower with range 3.  On the right is a Tower with the same range but near some German Castles.

Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Halfling on October 14, 2015, 06:29:17 AM
Hi Dan,
On the flip side the German Castles can be played with many expansions that do not incur these issues. Namely all the favourites I&C, T&B as well as any number of the smaller ones.

Personally I think that the extra moving ability for the dragon will add to the chances of meeple eating which I am all for. That is the main reason for playing that expansion after all!


Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 06:45:15 AM
Hi Dan,
On the flip side the German Castles can be played with many expansions that do not incur these issues. Namely all the favourites I&C, T&B as well as any number of the smaller ones.

Personally I think that the extra moving ability for the dragon will add to the chances of meeple eating which I am all for. That is the main reason for playing that expansion after all!

Very true! But it would be a shame to exclude certain expansions on the grounds that they aren't properly compatible with others. One of the goals of the CAR (and this site) is to enable players to play any combinations of expansions according to the official rules with all the relevant clarifications. So far we've managed this very successfully; it would be more than a shame to put all this behind us unnecessarily purely because of these clarifications over the GCs.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 06:48:19 AM
I have a Question.

Above it states:
Quote
The German castle has more a function like a cloister.

Does this mean they can enter into battles with the cult.  Does it also mean a cult cannot be played near 2 castles or a castle and a cloister.  Can castles be used to escape besieged cities?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 07:13:58 AM
This is starting to get a bit messy!

Let's take a step back for a minute.

These are the complications listed so far in this thread arising from considering German Castles as one tile:

- barn placement
- dragon movement
- tower range
- plague range
- cloister scoring
- German/Dutch monastery scoring

There are quite possibly some more as well.

IF German Castles were considered two tiles, and not one, what would the complications be?

(I suspect that there won't be as many. And if that's the case, maybe HiG should consider changing their stance from one tile to two tiles.)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 07:17:47 AM
Perhaps the original designer thought it was 2-tiles, so when completed it was worth two-points.
That is what you were implying. And could be true. Or he could just have thought that it was 1 tile, but double the size so double points. Or it could be simple that 11 points isn't a nice round and easy to remember score and 12 is.

Quote
Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.
This makes even less sense.  Rewriting the original base game rules to fit this mini-expansion is clearly careless.
Hence why I said I'm not a fan of that option. Or the counts as 2 tiles option. imho the 1 tile option provides the simplest solutions.

Quote
This is inaccurate.  The German rules call them "Doppel-Landschaftplättchen".  They are literally double-landscape-tiles; they should be considered as such: 2 landscape tiles.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQYmlNdHFMU2JGNms/view Here are the german rules. It states "6 Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". Later simply called "Burgplättchen".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQSTUtM2hzakNDNmc/view In english it's "double-sized Landscape Tiles". Later called "Castle tile".
They're called double (sized) landscape tiles. Never are they called double tiles. There is no mention of 6 tiles consisting of 2 tiles. Just 6 bigger tiles.

I've drawn up a diagram to explain how the tower's reach could be affected by the German Castle with the rule...On the right is a Tower with the same range but near some German Castles.
There's an error in the right diagram. The lower castle tile is indeed within reach, and so is the tile below the castle tile and below the tower, but the tile to the right of that is not within reach of the tower, it's not in a straight line down from the tower.
This is the same principle as with the fliers in question 6a and 6b of this topic.

I’ve been giving this some thought and there’s a lot I don’t like about the idea of the German Castle tiles being treated as one tile...
Now we’re saying that if a GC is orthogonally adjacent to a tower, the tower can reach further in one direction than it can in the other. Yes it’s the same number of tiles in each direction, fine, but in terms of the aesthetic of the game the tower is now wonky and aesthetics are very important to a lot of people here. Another thing that now bothers me about towers is that if half of the double-tile is orthogonally adjacent to a tower foundation and there is a meeple on the other half of the tile (which isn’t adjacent to the tower), can that meeple be captured even though it isn't directly orthogonally adjacent to the tower? I assume that it can because it’s one tile ::) ...
Another ugly consequence is that the GCs now act as a kind of launchpad for the dragon...
Part of the joy of the game is that the landscape that develops is supposed to represent an actual countryside landscape. Pretending that two square kilometres is actually one square kilometre (or whatever the scale is) simply because a physical game tile that represents it is, is to introduce some major geographical distortions that will corrupt the game and spoil it for many players. :(
Personally I like the 1 tile rule, and all issues it brings are pretty easily resolved by just remembering it's 1 tile. I like the extra options for the dragon (and fleas), and the cloister and klooster scoring. The landscape being "warped" in scale is a minus, but it's not really a visible effect and doesn't bother me much. Towers capturing a follower on a feature on the half of the castle tile that isn't in a straight line is also a minus. But it would be very rare in an actual game.
I just love consistency and logic in rules, so it's either 1 tile for everything, or 2 tiles in 1 piece played at once for everything.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 07:25:28 AM
I just love consistency and logic in rules, so it's either 1 tile for everything, or 2 tiles in 1 piece played at once for everything.

Same here! Which is why I'd rather they were recognised as representing two tiles since this is the area that they occupy on the landscape. All things considered, this seems like a far more consistent and logical approach.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 07:28:31 AM
I think part of the confusion comes from the Halflings. The Halflings are considered one full tile for things like cloister scoring etc. And this seems to work well. So when they made double tiles, perhaps they decided to stick to the same idea. But it looks like the German Castles create more complications than the Halflings in this way.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 07:32:24 AM
I think part of the confusion comes from the Halflings. The Halflings are considered one full tile for things like cloister scoring etc. And this seems to work well. So when they made double tiles, perhaps they decided to stick to the same idea. But it looks like the German Castles create more complications than the Halflings in this way.

Agree.

These are the complications listed so far in this thread arising from considering German Castles as one tile:

- barn placement
- dragon movement
- tower range
- plague range
- cloister scoring
- German/Dutch monastery scoring

- fliers (added by Dan)

There are quite possibly some more as well.

IF German Castles were considered two tiles, and not one, what would the complications be?

I dare say that others here would be able to come up with something, but for me, I would be happy that 99% of likely circumstances (probably more) are catered for simply by recognising that these are two tiles.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 07:36:11 AM
Does this mean they can enter into battles with the cult.  Does it also mean a cult cannot be played near 2 castles or a castle and a cloister.  Can castles be used to escape besieged cities?
It says "like a cloister" as a comparison, not "as a cloister". German castles competing with cults would be silly. Escaping besieged cities to a german castle would make some sense, but there's nothing in the rules about that.

@jungleboy

If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).

barn placement would likely be allowed if it's 2 tiles and likely not if it's 1 tile (only 3 corners)
dragon movement, tower range, plague range, cloister scoring and German/Dutch monastery scoring can all be easily resolved by both options. With one option you just have to remember it is and counts as 1 tile, and with the other option you just have to remember it counts as two landscape tiles.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
Quote
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQYmlNdHFMU2JGNms/view Here are the german rules. It states "6 Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". Later simply called "Burgplättchen".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQSTUtM2hzakNDNmc/view In english it's "double-sized Landscape Tiles". Later called "Castle tile".
They're called double (sized) landscape tiles. Never are they called double tiles. There is no mention of 6 tiles consisting of 2 tiles. Just 6 bigger tiles.

The English version of the rules was translated by wamboyil a member of this forum.  He translated Doppel as double-sized.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 14, 2015, 07:43:42 AM
you are all very nice - I still make this clarification - now I put into my postings the pictures. But that needs time. So I have not finished all example pictures for all the questions.

But if the German castle tile would be like as 2 tiles - there will be enormous problems.
One example is the dragon or the flier, tower and so on.

Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 07:56:26 AM
If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).

Yes, you're right. I was thinking about this as I wrote it but I couldn't express it the way you did.

Having thought about it and read the other responses, I agree with Dan that the two-tile solution seems the most intuitive to me. In that case, if you claim a German Castle, you'd have to choose which side of the castle to claim for purposes of tower, dragon etc.

Edit: Removed something in a sentence above; I'm now clarifying that Dan prefers two tiles but benbever prefers one.

But if the German castle tile would be like as 2 tiles - there will be enormous problems.
One example is the dragon or the flier, tower and so on.

But as benbever said in the part I quoted above, these same problems also exist with the one-tile solution. It just depends on your point of view.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 08:01:56 AM
If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).

Yes, you're right. I was thinking about this as I wrote it but I couldn't express it the way you did.

Having thought about it and read the other responses, I agree with you and Dan that the two-tile solution seems the most intuitive to me. In that case, if you claim a German Castle, you'd have to choose which side of the castle to claim for purposes of tower, dragon etc.

For the sake of consistency, you could always follow the rules set out for the original castles from "Bridges, Castles & Bazaars" where the castle is claimed by a meeple which isn't technically on either tile and as such can't be eaten by the dragon?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 08:07:30 AM
I gave the "counts as 2 tiles" option some thoughts and the main problem(s) seem to be:

If you place a follower on the caste, with the "counts as 2 tiles" option, would it be on the left side, the right side, or "in the middle"? What if the dragon comes? What if the tower wants to take that follower?

Some other issues with the german castles tiles:

If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?

With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?

It would also make problems with windroses.

Personally I'm still more inclined to follow the 1 tile rule. It fits the castles theme better, and I don't like putting my follower on the left or right side, or in the unreachable-by-the-dragon middle. People who don't like it as 1 tile can just play with a "counts as 2 tiles" house rule without any real problems as far as I can see.

@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.

@ Kettlefish, your diagrams are very illustrative and helpful.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 08:13:18 AM
Just like I said before.  Double as in 2.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 08:20:50 AM
It's only as complicated as you choose to make it...

If you place a follower on the caste, with the "counts as 2 tiles" option, would it be on the left side, the right side, or "in the middle"? What if the dragon comes? What if the tower wants to take that follower?

In the middle. Same as with previous Castles. See existing rules for Castles and Dragon/ Tower interaction for further clarification.

If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?

4 points. Same as with school.

With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?

Yes. Why shouldn't it?

It would also make problems with windroses.

Such as?

Personally I'm still more inclined to follow the 1 tile rule. It fits the castles theme better, and I don't like putting my follower on the left or right side, or in the unreachable-by-the-dragon middle. People who don't like it as 1 tile can just play with a "counts as 2 tiles" house rule without any real problems as far as I can see.

I disagree with this, but recognise that this is just a personal preference. But how about the "counts as 2 tiles" rule be the official one as this is more consistent, logical and makes sense, others who prefer to treat it as 1 tile can house rule it as they wish?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 08:23:59 AM
@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.

Just like I said before.  Double as in 2.

Guys, whether it's described as double or not doesn't matter. We are thinking more about the interaction between the German Castles and various other elements here in this thread than anyone else did before naming the tiles.

HiG could easily change their mind on whether the German Castles are one or two tiles based on the feedback they get from kettlefish - the name certainly wouldn't impede this, nor does the name imply that they had already considered all of these issues and ruled on them, which they obviously haven't done based on the barn example kettlefish gave upthread.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 08:30:55 AM
@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.

Just like I said before.  Double as in 2.

Guys, whether it's described as double or not doesn't matter. We are thinking more about the interaction between the German Castles and various other elements here in this thread than anyone else did before naming the tiles.

Again, I agree (starting to make a habit of this)! O:-) However, my argument is that whether you treat it as 1 or 2 tiles is critical to how the interactions between GCs and other expansions are handled. Although it sounds as though a decision has already been made, I earnestly believe that it is the wrong one and in the interests of what I consider to be a very cool expansion I still believe it's worth arguing the point if there's any chance that this could be reconsidered.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 08:37:47 AM
However, my argument is that whether you treat it as 1 or 2 tiles is critical to how the interactions between GCs and other expansions are handled.

Completely agree (this is getting quite boring, isn't it?). But I don't think the original name description is really relevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 08:45:48 AM
4 points. Same as with school.
School is 2 tiles. This is 1. With the answers in the first post in this topic it'd count for 3 points, with the "2 tiles rule" it'd count for 4 points.

Quote
With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?
Yes. Why shouldn't it?
Aother example of consequence of 1 tile or counts as 2 tiles rule. If 1 tile it would receive 1 gold.

Quote
I disagree with this, but recognise that this is just a personal preference. But how about the "counts as 2 tiles" rule be the official one as this is more consistent, logical and makes sense, others who prefer to treat it as 1 tile can house rule it as they wish?
I don't think treating 1 tile as 2 is more logical or consistent. But I'd be fine with it. I thought the answers from HiG were (semi)official (or the next best thing) hence why I called the other option "house rule". If it was the other way around I'd call that the potential "house rule". Since neither seem to be offical yet they're all house rules anyway.
Personally I like the "it's 1 tile" rule because it adds something new, and dynamic, that has a bit more influence than just a 33% bigger cloister that looks pretty. Same reason why I like the german/dutch kloosters (a lot but not too much game influence) but not windroses (does almost nothing).
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 08:50:23 AM
Quote
Quote
It would also make problems with windroses.
Such as?
If it's counted as 2 tiles, one of the tiles (half of the castle) might be or not be in the right north/south zone.


Could you expand on this.  I think this would work like the flyers and the Tower, when travelling lengthways it is considerd 1 tile.  But if you are travelling widthways you consider it 2 tiles, so you can't hop across, unless you're a dragon.  But perhaps i missed something...it's getting late for my brain :(
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 14, 2015, 09:00:28 AM
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...
---------------------------------------
For me it is easy - the German castle is one landscape tile - the dragon has only one move / step left - the 6th one - he can eat all meeple on that tile = 5 meeple.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 09:03:01 AM
Could you expand on this.  I think this would work like the flyers and the Tower, when travelling lengthways it is considerd 1 tile.  But if you are travelling widthways you consider it 2 tiles, so you can't hop across, unless you're a dragon.
You're right. I deleted this from my list of other examples that might give problems or resolve differently with the 1 tile rule or the 2 tiles rule. It would work like the tower and flyers with strict horizontal/vertical rows.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 09:10:29 AM
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...
---------------------------------------
For me it is easy - the German castle is one landscape tile - the dragon has only one move / step left - the 6th one - he can eat all meeple on that tile = 5 meeple.

Awesome picture Kettlefish!

This is how I see it (as a 2-tiler).  The dragon could move once North and eat the yellow meeple.  The dragon could take a second move, WEST and eat 3 meeple.  Some of us think it's thematically sound to keep the meeple in the Castle safe.  It's an awfully big castle they are hiding in. 

However If the meeple in the castle must be eaten I can see it:
i) Eating the Meeple when it goes NORTH because the Dragon can eat things in the castle.
ii) Only eating the meeple if it goes from Right to Left; because it moved across the castle....and attacked it.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 09:11:05 AM
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...

imho it's one tile and the Dragon has a 5 meeple feast.

With the suggested "counts as two" tile rule, the dragon can only reach the right castle tile (right half of the castle tile) and eat the yellow meeple. The green and blue meeple are on the other tile. The red meeple is in the castle and between tiles. (Like the other castles from the expansion, but in this case not so clearly/physically) The dragon can't reach between tiles, so the red meeple would be safe even if the dragon had another move.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 14, 2015, 09:22:58 AM
great - now you like to change the rules for the German Castle feature - that was not the deal.
The German Castle doesn't protect the meeple inside the castle. The game mechanics are different than the castle from "Brücken, Burgen & Basare" (bridges, castles & bazaars).
This German Castle doesn't need as a base a small city with 2 half round city segments and it is not on a token.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 14, 2015, 09:25:39 AM
So the Dragon can eat the meeple in the castle: i) if it enters either tile; ii) or if it crosses the tile.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 09:27:12 AM
This is how I see it (as a 2-tiler).  The dragon could move once North and eat the yellow meeple.  The dragon could take a second move, WEST and eat 3 meeple.  Some of us think it's thematically sound to keep the meeple in the Castle safe.  It's an awfully big castle they are hiding in. 

However If the meeple in the castle must be eaten I can see it:
i) Eating the Meeple when it goes NORTH because the Dragon can eat things in the castle.
ii) Only eating the meeple if it goes from Right to Left; because it moved across the castle....and attacked

The red meeple could be treated as being on the left or right tile (but not in this case since he's clearly in the middle) or on both, in which case he'll be eaten no matter if the dragon is on the left or right side of the tile.

Or he could be treated like he's on the imiginary line in the middle between two tiles, and, like the other castle, is safe from towers, the dragon, and the plague. In this case he is actually on the tile (and not on a castle on top of tiles like in the expansion) so it's less intuitive. But it could be ruled that the castle is dragon proof. (Are the real ones in Germany dragon proof?)

Your ii) idea of the dragon eating the red meeple if he moves from one half of the tile to the other half since he then covers both tiles, in somewhat inconsistent with the castle from the other expansion, and with the tower. This would maybe mean that the dragon could eat meeples from the other castles too if aligned properly, and that the tower can capture meeples from the german castle if aligned properly.

Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 14, 2015, 09:29:48 AM
I've asked Georg Wild in this case - and asked him what should we do with the red meeple - it is in the middle of this landscape tile - if we decide to use it like 2 tiles - than we need a saw - a half meeple is still on the right side of the landscape tile. But together we decide, that would be a very bloddy Carcassonne game play...
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 14, 2015, 09:36:47 AM
...what should we do with the red meeple - it is in the middle of this landscape tile - if we decide to use it like 2 tiles - than we need a saw - a half meeple is still on the right side of the landscape tile. But together we decide, that would be a very bloddy Carcassonne game play...
Is the meeple on the right tile? Yes, half of it. Since yes, the dragon eats it.
Pretty simple.
With the "counts as 2 tiles" rule, the green and blue meeple are safe (for now), with the 1 tile rule they're also dragon snacks.
No point in making things more difficult than need be.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 09:51:16 AM
As another '2-tiler' (love it, Decar), my preference is to have the player who places the meeple in the German Castle choose which side of the tile he/she places it on. Then for the dragon, tower etc, the meeple is only captured if it the range of the tower/dragon extends to that half of the tile.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 14, 2015, 10:20:38 AM
So what are we saying about Decar's Tower demonstration in his post here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29643#msg29643 ?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 14, 2015, 11:15:13 AM
I must say, although I don't own the German Castles yet, and never played it and therefore shouldn't insist to much on my opinion, I kind of like the One-Tile-Solution, which had been provided by HiG. It gives the dragon a bigger snack, btw. "eating half a meeple" in a German Castle, while the same is safe in a regular one, would be inconsistent. The Tower has potential to give the double tile extra tactical use, like creating a "shortcut" which let you capture a meeple with one tower piece less, at the same time, German Castle tiles get a little more vulnerable to tower attacks, because there is more space, where you can add a tower tile nearby. And for example, I have doubts about the following statement as well:
If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?

4 points. Same as with school.
The main difference imho is not, that the school is two tiles, but that the school is a starter tile. Let's say, you have an unoccupied 3/4 loop and add the RRRR tile from base game and a thief. You get 4 points for that, not 5. Adding a GC to complete a loop road would be preety much the same, wouldn't it? This can never be the case with the school, because it was placed right at the beginning. So I wouldn't compare the issues of GC with any starting tiles.

I wouldn't have to much concerns about the "odd theming" of this double-tiles, because honestly Carcassonne never had been a game where theme is the main topic. Honestly, I have much more issues with "German Castles", "Dutch Cloisters", "Wind Roses" and the like beeing placed in the French countryside then with the abstract concept of "double landscape tiles".

Another issue, which raises a question imho is the combination of barn and halfling. As far, as I understand the clarification, it is (theoretical) possible, to place a barn on 4 halfling tiles which form two triangles with the 4 asymptotes meeting in one point, right at this point. But in this case, two farms would serve the barn. So what about farmers connecting to the barn? Would they only score for the cities in the field, where they are in or does the barn in some way connect the two farms to one?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 14, 2015, 11:46:08 AM
So what are we saying about Decar's Tower demonstration in his post here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29643#msg29643 ?

The photo is reattached to make it easier for people to follow.

My view is that in the GC to the right of the tower, the tower would require two tower pieces to reach the right half of the GC tile. The subsequent numbers would then be 3 and 4.

In the GC south of the tower, my view is that if the meeple was placed on the left of the two-tile GC, then it can be captured by a tower with two tower pieces. If it was placed on the right of the two-tile GC, then it cannot be captured by this tower. And as one final point, I think that no matter what you think of the 1 vs 2 issue for GCs, the grey tile marked 3 on the right side below the GC should never be able to be captured by this tower.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 14, 2015, 02:19:59 PM
I agree, that...
the grey tile marked 3 on the right side below the GC should never be able to be captured by this tower.
... and am sure, that this is according to the rules like stated above. However I like the "one tile concept" regarding the GC, and would consider it inconsistent otherwise, since the halfling tiles are not considered "half tiles" either.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 01:32:25 AM
I've added pictures for the tower question (No.7)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 15, 2015, 01:34:24 AM
I think it’s well known here that I’m a big fan of the basic game, but I do enjoy adding expansions from time to time and have played most of them by now in various combinations. For a game that’s supposed to be set in Southern France and which boasts a medieval theme though, it isn’t always easy to accept some of the various elements that have come along and I like to think I’ve done a pretty good job of embracing most of them so far.

I can accept fairies, dragons (which are drawn to volcanoes whilst being afraid of fairies?) and magic portals. I can accept monasteries from Germany, Holland and Belgium turning up in France, and I can accept buildings from approximately 1000 years in the future too. I can accept the Catapult (and will even go so far as to say that I quite enjoyed it :) ), I can accept the various shades of green introduced by certain expansions and I actually like the new artwork! In fact, I think it’s safe to say that I’m easily impressed and will accept most things if they add more to the game than they take away.

What I can’t accept is this:

(http://www.dan.tehill.net/ImpossibleSquare.jpg)

That’s nonsense.

:(y) Go 2-tilers! :(y) 8)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 15, 2015, 01:35:52 AM
I've added pictures for the tower question (No.7)

Thanks kettlefish. I appreciate the efforts you go to to seek these rules clarifications from HiG (even if I don't agree with them). :(y)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: SRBO on October 15, 2015, 01:48:14 AM
it just contradicts with the halflings.. sorry to add to the discussion,

but halflings are actually 2 tiles being 1 tile (because it takes 1 square).. while castles actually is 1 tile being 1 tile.. (but takes up 2 squares..).


Lol 1 thing which i now read from this discussion is this: (see attachment)
so a barn is allowed in this case? because there are 4 intersections! (5!!)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 02:27:02 AM
I've added an example picture for the flier and the German castle tile - see question No.6.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Rosco on October 15, 2015, 02:29:50 AM
I have to say i am with Dan on this and it will always be house ruled to that effect regardless of the official ruling.

It doesn't make me quite so angry as it makes Dan but it does exasperate me with the illogicality of it.  How can a 2 tile tile be crossed lengthways by a dragon as if it was half the size?  does he get more energy by flying over a double tile?  eve though he has to fly over a castle too? it doesnt make sense.  Equally how can a tower see round corners? or see further? like i said, it doesnt make sense!

In regards to having different rules relating to halflings - that is simply not true.  A dragon can cross a halfling with a half gap as it can go across the corner.  a tower can cross any gap.  the only slight anomoly is in regards to cloisters - but this is a special feature of the halfling which allows the player to score a half tile as a full tile in this case.   The other point is that if a halfling is counted as a full tile in all circumstances then it would be an illegal move to fill the triangular hole left by a single halfling - is this true?

i hope that makes sense

edit:  The images just posted for the flyer then goes against the idea that it is one tile/one point etc.  How can a tower kidnap someone off the orthogonal line but the flyer cant fly off the line of flight?  it is not consistant.  Also does the flyer get more power by flying over a castle therefore can fly further? i think not.
There is an answer which may satisfy both camps here - spacially it is 2 tiles but for scoring it is 1.  i.e. for a tower of flyer to cross it legthways it is 2 tiles but for a cloister it is one point.  what do you think?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 02:33:22 AM
What I can’t accept is this:

(http://www.dan.tehill.net/ImpossibleSquare.jpg)

That’s nonsense.
But that's, because you are thinking in "area" rather then in "tiles". A saloon car is still one car, and not two, even if it takes up the space of two. There's another tile laying game, "Castles of Mad King Ludwig", I'm not really familiar with, but I think, the tiles are of different shape, but they still count all as one room of a castle. The concept of Carcassonne with areas of the landscape coming out of the void, and holes, where no land area can be fit into, is completely abstract on it's own, so I wonder, what issues you have with a rule like this.

But since there is an issue, how about considering it like this: the landscape of Carcassonne is a flat projection. Seen from above there can be areas of the same space, which are actually bigger, because of hills or valleys. Consider the castle tiles as some simplified model (the base of the visuals of Carcassonne is perspectively simplified anyway, if you consider, that any tile can be placed in 4 different orientations) of a flat projection of an area, which in fact represents a hill.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 02:41:40 AM
If I fire a catapult token across the width of a GC tile; can I then move it an extra tile in that direction, because the extra width is considered 'free' space in relation to the other tiles?

Two half tiles can fit in the space of a single square.  Two tiles cannot fit in the space of a single square.

Considering a geometric series, If I keep halving the size of the tiles, they'll can still fit in the space of a single tile.  If I keep doubling the size of the tiles, I'll need an infinite amount of space to fit all the tiles in.

Also the Cloister Point scoring makes no sense; as I quoted before the Cloister rule is: "A monastery is complete when it is surrounded by tiles" - It does not state how many tiles surround it, only that the tile is surrounded.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 03:28:30 AM
it just contradicts with the halflings.. sorry to add to the discussion,

but halflings are actually 2 tiles being 1 tile (because it takes 1 square).. while castles actually is 1 tile being 1 tile.. (but takes up 2 squares..).


Lol 1 thing which i now read from this discussion is this: (see attachment)
so a barn is allowed in this case? because there are 4 intersections! (5!!)
thanks SRBO for your nice picture - I have added some example pictures for question No.9.
------------------------------
With the halfling tiles / triangle tiles - there will come a great surprise...
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 15, 2015, 03:29:29 AM
If I fire a catapult token across the width of a GC tile; can I then move it an extra tile in that direction, because the extra width is considered 'free' space in relation to the other tiles?

Now you're just trolling. There's no way you actually play with the catapult.

 >:D
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 03:31:56 AM
...Maybe it would help...  But it's an example of an existing mechanic where something of length 2 is not length 1.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 15, 2015, 04:27:42 AM
thanks SRBO for your nice picture - I have added some example pictures for question No.9.
------------------------------
With the halfling tiles / triangle tiles - there will come a great surprise...

I don't understand  the barn placement on german castle plus halflings in your example picture. Could you explain? I've added it as an attachement here.

1. This barn is on 4 corners and on 4 tiles, so it's ok.

2. This barn is on 3 corners and on 3 tiles (the german castle is 1 tile) so this would not be ok.

3. This barn is on 5 corners(?) and on 3 tiles (the halflings count as 1 tile per square even though there are literally 4 half tiles). A barn needs to be on 4 tiles, and (at least) 4 corners, so how is this ok? Or is the 4 corners criterium enough to allow the barn?

4. This barn is on 4 corners(?) and on 3 tiles. It's almost the same as diagram 3. Why is this not allowed, but diagram 3 is allowed?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 04:57:57 AM
The fourth picture is laughable - It's ok to place a barn on 5 tiles; but it is not OK to place it on 4 tiles.

This looks very different to the clarification earlier where it was ok to place a barn on 4 tiles if one of them is a halfling; but i take it it is not ok to place if there are 5 tiles are 2 halflings.  So I can't play my halfling into the space after if the barn is there already.

What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Rosco on October 15, 2015, 05:19:53 AM
What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.

Agreed
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 05:23:01 AM
What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.
But then it would be much to easy to place a barn, by simply placing your GC to a spot, with two corners of gras. Have you considered that? Case 2 is by far the most reasonable to happen. I don't think, that case 3 will ever be seen in an actual game. (Like the case, I mentioned before with the 4 halflings forming two field, which might be a spot for a barn.)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 05:26:04 AM
By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.

In the software trade we have a mantra that every time you fix a bug you introduce 2 new ones.  This is a great example of this:  German Castles had a small bug and by fixing it we have 15 new issues.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 15, 2015, 05:36:58 AM
By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.
That cloister is worth 9 points. That is already covered by the rules.
Half a tile is worth 1 point (as if rounded up), and 2 halves in 1 square space is still worth 1 point (the 2 halves now count as 1 tile (See Halfling I and II note 406 in the CAS).
The German Castle tile is also worth 1 point, since it's 1 tile (just double the size).
I don't see how 2 half tiles counting as 1 whole tile "logically extends" to 1 double size tile counting as 2.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 05:40:00 AM
I don't see this as much as a conflict. Technicaly, a spot around a cloister is sufficiently filled with just one Halfling. Placing an extra one is optional. You can do this, and might as well, if you need it to finish for another feature, but generally, it would be a waste for just one cloister bonus point. Also, a second Halfling can be placed after the cloister is completed and scored, by yourself or another player. The GC is a different matter, because placing it in a way to max the contact with cloister, you can speed up the finishing of your cloister. With a tile at your hand, you can play without drawing. This is a good thing, but I don't think, you should be granted an extra bonus by doubling the points for that placement.

EDIT: The attachment illustrates the (hypothetical) case, I was mentioning. IMHO, barn placement should be legal on that spot (as long, as the crossing is completely covered with gras and the placement of all Halflings themselves is legal, of course), but the barn might be served by two individual farms. In this case, it would be interesting to know, if a farmer connected to either of them, scores for both farms (because the barn serves kind as a connection of the farms), or just for the one, he is placed on.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 06:43:14 AM
At Spiel 2015 in Essen I talked with HiG - Georg Wild.

I told him, that the triangle tiles give us many problems...
I put two triangle tiles together. On each triangle tile is a road segment - both road segments continued the road:
I asked Georg Wild: How many points is this road worth?
He answered: 2 points

Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Rosco on October 15, 2015, 06:56:18 AM
what about a city that has the two triangles as in the above image but includes both city sections?  if this was one single tile then the tile would be worth 2 points in a city even though there are 2 segments of city, however, by the above road ruling then this should be 2 points for each triangle in a completed city. 
Kettlefish - why have you thrown another spanner in the works?????
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 07:02:45 AM
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
But with this, he contradicts earlier statements by HiG. So two Halflings forming the shape of one regular tile in the surrounding of a Cloister lead now to the case, that the Cloister is scorning 10 points, if completed later in the game?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 15, 2015, 07:05:29 AM
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
But with this, he contradicts earlier statements by HiG. So two Halflings forming the shape of one regular tile in the surrounding of a Cloister lead now to the case, that the Cloister is scorning 10 points, if completed later in the game?

WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 07:06:38 AM
I have updated my posting with a new picture:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29727#msg29727)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 15, 2015, 07:09:10 AM
What can I say -  the rules were not clear enough - now it is easy with the triangle tiles. A tile is a tile even if it is a triangle tile or if it is double long or what else.

The German castle tiles have no line in the middle of the tile - that is the reason why they are still one tile and no like "two tiles".
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 15, 2015, 07:10:21 AM
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
I wouldn't mind if each tile surrounding a cloister would be worth 1 point. Even the half ones. After all they're tiles. Why would 2 half tiles in different spaces be worth 2 points, and 2 halves in 1 square space be worth 1 point? But the rules (the german ones that came with halb so wild) explicitly explain 2 halves together is worth 1 point for cloister scoring (with an example even).
I get why they have the rule that a space with one half counts as finished for a cloister, but I don't really understand why they included the 2 halves in 1 space counts as 1 cloister point rule.

the barn might be served by two individual farms. In this case, it would be interesting to know, if a farmer connected to either of them, scores for both farms (because the barn serves kind as a connection of the farms), or just for the one, he is placed on.
Interesting situation, I'd like an answer for this as well. I'm guessing since the fields are not connected the farmers just score their own field. The barn in this pretty unique case is on two farms.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 07:10:39 AM
So

The Barn in 1) has 4 tiles so the barn can be placed
The Barn in 2) has 3 tiles and cannot be placed
The Barn in 3) has 5 tiles and SHOULD NOT be placed
The Barn in 4) has 4 tiles and SHOULD be placed
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 07:15:05 AM
WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...

This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction.  Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year:  http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 15, 2015, 07:17:46 AM
WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...

This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction.  Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year:  http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0

...plus there still seems to be a certain amount of confusion amongst some people about how farms are scored since there have been three different versions since the game first came out.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 15, 2015, 07:20:14 AM
I made a comparison between the consequences of the German Castles is 1 tile rule, and the suggested German Castles counts as 2 tiles rule.

Current "counts as 1 tile" rule.

-Cloisters are a bit easier to finish, but could score only 8 or even 7 points.
-The dragon (and fleas) are a bit more maneuverable, on a german castle they have 5 directional options and it can be used as a bit of a shortcut.
-The flier can fly 3 tiles, but with an aligned german castle tile he can cover more distance, and with a perpendicular german castle tile he can be place on a feature "around the corner" as long it's on the german castle tile he landed on.
-The tower range counts in tiles, so if a german castle tile is aligned the tower can reach further in length to that side, and if the german castle tile is perpendicular the tower can grab followers "around the corner" as long as they're on the german castle tile that is within reach.
-German/Dutch klooster scoring range can be extended with an aligned german castle by 2 in "tile length" but it's only worth 1 point (1 tile).
-A road from the german castle tile that loops back to the german castle tile is worth 1+(number of road tiles).
-A barn can't be placed on the long side of a german castle tile and 2 other tiles (rule not yet confirmed.)


Alternative "counts as 2 tiles" rule.

-Cloisters are a bit easier to finish, and score the usual 9 points.
-The dragon (and fleas) are as fast as usual, players need to remember that the single german castle tile counts as two.
-The flier can fly 3 tiles, players need to remember that the single german castle tile counts as two tiles. If the german castle tile is aligned he can only fly the length of the german castle tile (2) and 1 more tile, if the german castle tile is perpendicular he can only land on one half of it.
-The tower range works as usual, players need to remember that the single german castle tile counts as two tiles. If the german castle tile is aligned along the tower range than the tower needs an extra piece to capture the furthest half (2nd tile) and if the german castle tile is perpendicular then one half of the tile is always out of reach of that castle.
-German/Dutch klooster scoring range can be extended with an aligned german castle by 2 in "tile length" and it'll be worth 2 points (counts as 2 tiles).
-A road from the german castle tile that loops back to the german castle tile is worth 1+(number of road tiles) if it loops the the starting half, and 2+(number of road tiles) if it loops to the other half of the german castle tile (counts as the second tile).
-A barn can be placed on the long side of a german castle tile since it now counts as 2 tiles. This does make placing barns a lot easier, since every player gets 1 or 2 german castle tiles. 4 out of 6 german castle tiles have a long side with 2 fields, and the other 2 even have 2 long sides with 2 fields.

-There is an additional problem with the dragon, fleas, flier and tower (and maybe others); it's unclear if the follower that is on the german castle is on one of the halves, both of them, or between them.
--If it is on one of the halves then that needs to be decided when placing the tile. Placing the follower on one side feels against the theme of the german castles. Half of the german castle can be in range of a tower or occupied by the dragon, while the follower is safe on the other half of the castle on the other tile.
--If it counts as if it is on both, then it basically acts like the "1 tile" rule, but just for the follower on the castle, not the other features on the tile.
--If it counts like in between (like the small city castles from the expansion) then it needs additional rules, where the follower is either counted as in between (even if it's on a tile) or where the castle is declared dragon-, plague- and towerproof.


imho The "1 tile" rule adds a fun and dynamic mechanism to the game, where tower reach and dragon movement can be manipulated a little bit and cloister scoring can be influenced a little bit. The additional problems/consequences are easily resolved. But I can see how some people don't like it for the same reasons.
The "counts as 2 tiles" rule doesn't add much to the game, just 2 tiled cloisters that score 12 points and some bonus points. But it does add the same problems/consequences, and with the follower in the castle even one that needs additional ruling. With this alternative rule I wish they'd just put the castle on 1 tile.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 07:31:32 AM
A more concise 2-tile summary:

1) The German Castles are 2 tiles; all rules apply as if they were 2 distinct tiles, placed at the same time.
2) Any effect which may take place on either of the 2-tiles can affect any followers located on the Castle situated in the middle of both tiles.  (eg: The Dragon entering one half of the German Castle may eat any followers in the German Castle).
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 07:31:57 AM
What can I say -  the rules were not clear enough
On some accounts, the rules get a little more complicated now, see Decars cases with different combos of Halflings and GCs.

Before it was basically, that on any account, where there is an issue of area coverage, may it be cloister, abbey or barn, two halflings next to each other are treated exactly equal to just one halfling tile (or a regular one). So that's also, why in "Case 4" the barn should not be placed, because the "hypotenuses" edge is a neglected edge, likewise it is "non existing". But if you count halfling tiles individually in this case, this should also be taken into account in this case.

I think, if you want to play GCs according to "2-tiles rules", you could also try a variant like this:
No GC is distributed to the players at the beginig of the game, but they are mixed and form a separate stack. Each time on one's turn, a player can skip the procedure of drawing a tile (basically loosing the turn) for getting the GC tile on top of the stack on the next turn. People can do this as often and whenever they want to, until the stack is depleted. Not sure, if this works out nicely and balanced, but it might be worth a try. Then of course, the tile should be treated as two tiles in every aspect, because you needed two turns to get it.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 15, 2015, 07:43:10 AM
@Decar,
The point was a comparison between the consequences of both rule options. Not a concise summary of one of them. I do agree on the caste dwelling follower being on both tiles, and being dragon food or tower capture material, as the best (most logical/native) solution for the 2 tile option.

So that's also, why in "Case 4" the barn should not be placed, because the "hypotenuses" edge is a neglected edge, likewise it is "non existing".
I get why it should not be placed in "Case 4", but not why it is ok to place in "Case 3".
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 07:48:45 AM
I don't think, it's OK to place in Case 3, either. Because the main problem, that you "drop in" your barn on a double tile is exactly the same.

One "thrill"-aspect of playing with barn is, that you start hesitating placing a tile on a place, where 3 corners meet on a prosperous farm, so there is the danger, that a opponent get the necessary 4th tile to place the barn, before you have a chance to. Covering 2 corners on one tile makes it to easy to place the barn, and the halfling tiles do not all need to be placed, to make placement possible. That's my opinion.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 07:58:22 AM
Can I place a barn here, there are 4 tiles?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 15, 2015, 08:07:37 AM
I would say yes, sure, but at least one of the Halflings would need to be connected to a 5th one, otherwise there is no way, this 4 tiles could have been placed legally.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 08:10:10 AM
By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.

Also is this cloister now not complete?  It can only be completed when the last halfling is added?


POST 1000 - wHOOT  :(y) :(y) :(y)  :gray-meeple: :gray-meeple: :gray-meeple:
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: jungleboy on October 15, 2015, 08:11:48 AM

WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...

This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction.  Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year:  http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0

Contradictions are not great of course, but changing rules is a good thing if it leads to better rules.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 15, 2015, 09:08:07 AM
I agree jungleboy  :(y)
@Hounk, yes there should be at least one more halfling connecting it to the main, forgive my mspaint skills. Perhaps this makes Barns easier to place as they are harder to stop given their limited number.

To add, the barn placement on the left is acceptable;so it follows, the barn placements in the centre and right are acceptable, because we have shown that a halfling tile is connected to a tile at a corner:

Edit: "When a player places a tile so that four field corners meet,he may place a barn instead of placing a follower."
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: aenima on October 16, 2015, 07:06:31 AM
At Spiel 2015 in Essen I talked with HiG - Georg Wild.

I told him, that the triangle tiles give us many problems...
I put two triangle tiles together. On each triangle tile is a road segment - both road segments continued the road:
I asked Georg Wild: How many points it this road worth?
He answered: 2 points

Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.

So... a city like that scores 12 points?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: JT Atomico on October 16, 2015, 03:08:29 PM
2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on October 17, 2015, 12:32:00 AM
2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.

Welcome to the light side Jamie! :(y)  I'll PM you about the secret handshake... :))
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: MrNumbers on October 18, 2015, 02:39:20 AM
It took me a long time to read this thread. So, I am in 2-tiler camp also.
But I have another interesting question: why we need GC tile in this example (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29705#msg29705)? The barn can be placed even without it: 4 tile meet in one point. But half of a barn would be on a table rather than on the landscape - are we OK with that?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Guy on October 18, 2015, 02:44:51 AM
My opinion is that having all things considered based on the number of tiles rather than the size of the tiles makes life a lot simpler. Having said that it needs to be applied consistently and as close as possible to existing rules.

With that in mind I believe, (having accepted the one tile premise) that the main area that needs clarification is the placement of barns. I don't agree with one of kettle fish's images for this reason (the one with the castle, a normal tile, and two halflings), to me that should be perfectly legal. Essentially it comes down to this: Does it have to be at the intersection of only 4 tiles or at least 4 tiles?

Those are my thoughts.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Rosco on October 18, 2015, 03:14:17 AM
If all tiles are one tile then what about the count start city tiles/tile?  Just throwing it out there. I don't know the rules of the count so I don't know if it would make any difference but I suppose it could for cloister scoring.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 18, 2015, 04:19:49 AM
The count/wheel start board is a board consisting of (representing) 12/16 tiles. That's what the white lines are for. This is already in the rules.

The topic seems to have changed from the german castles being (and counted as) 1 tile, to the idea of the halfling tiles now counting as 1 tile. (They seem to count for 1 point in road and city scoring, so why not for cloisters and other things?)
I gave that some thought (cloisters scoring more than 9 points, dragon movement resticted a bit) and because of the divide being diagonal it wouldn't give much troubles. The only one I can think of is the flier when coming in diagonally. It would land between the half tiles, but that can be solved by having it just choose one.
The only reason why I wouldn't like it is because the printed rules already clearly state two halfs in one square count as 1 tile, and 1 point for cloisters.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 18, 2015, 04:44:04 AM
more than one landscape tile on one tile ?
here are some pictures...
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Guy on October 19, 2015, 02:10:24 AM
What impact do the new rules have regarding halflings being scored as individual tiles have on the following:

1. The tower. If you have a gap the tower can jump it as part of it's range. If you had one halfling tile does the remaining triangular gap count as a whole tile when considering the range of the tower? Same question only with two halfling tiles next to each other - is that a tower range of one for the first time and then two for the second halfling tile?

2. The dragon. Do the halfling tiles count as one tile in respect to dragon movement? Previously i thought two next to each other counted as a single tile and therefore only one tile for dragon movement. Will two halfling tiles next to each other count as two movements now? Equally can the dragon move over a triangular gap created by a halfling tile or can it only cross onto a tile by a whole tile edge?

Guy
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Safari on October 21, 2015, 05:32:17 PM
2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.

Welcome to the light side Jamie! :(y)  I'll PM you about the secret handshake... :))
After reading all of this amazing discussion (at CarcF we had a similar debate on the Halflings in late 2014) I have to admitt that I'm on the 2-tilers side as well. For me "the grid" has always been a fundamental part of the Carcassonne experience, and also will in the Future. The new HiG "1 tile policy" clearly breaks with this fundamental Carcassonne constitutional law. However, I'm glad that at least after that clarification we don't apply double standards for Halflings (two half tiles count as one complete tile) and the German Castles (one double-tile counts as one complete tile as well).
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Whaleyland on October 21, 2015, 05:52:52 PM
2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.
Also agree. Despite a few logical reasons for considering the German Castle to be a single "tile", most of the reasons defy logic. Does this, in effect, also mean that standard Castles (from BC&B) convert the two tiles into one since they seamlessly merge the two parts of the City into one Castle? I think not. Likewise, I will continue to treat German Castles as two tiles for function's sake, and I seriously doubt many others will adopt or assume the new official interpretation of the tiles' rules.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 22, 2015, 12:24:56 AM
Well I'm glad to see so many veterans of Carcassonne are 2-tilers. I was beginning to think I'd lost the plot but as Safari said there's a fundamental unit vector being used making the grid system constitutional, distorting space time was never going to work. :(y)

Double standards for Halflings  ^-^
double standards for Halflings (two half tiles count as one complete tile) and the German Castles (one double-tile counts as one complete tile as well).
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: benbever on October 22, 2015, 05:23:14 AM
"Distorting space" works just fine. See the first posts in this topic. In fact both systems ("counts as 1 tile" and "counts as 2 tiles") work fine, but both need some rule clarifications. It's just a matter of preference.
I think this might stem from how people look at the game.
-Some people might look at the game as adding landscape tiles to an ever growing landscape.
-Other people might look at the game as a grid of empty or unknown landscape, that gets filled in tile by tile.
For people who look at it mostly from the tile adding perspective, adding a bigger or non standard shaped tile might be exciting; more landscape to add in one turn with more game changing possibilities.
People who look at the game with grid filling in mind might not be excited at all; the tile warps the grid and distances counted in tiles are no longer the same as actual distances in length.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Guy on October 23, 2015, 08:36:26 AM
For those who are interested I have knocked up a quick document detailing how the castles of Germany expansion and the halflings expansion interact with other expansions based on the information from kettlefish. Let me know what you think.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c7S6pwPQWHZ0NlMkpDT1BOSTQ/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Fritz_Spinne on October 23, 2015, 08:44:04 AM
So there are 8 pages for the interaction of two mini-expansions with themselves and some other expansions? I think there should be a simpler way to explain the rules.

Btw I don't feel all of your statements to halfling-gaps are correct.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Guy on October 23, 2015, 08:48:53 AM
I agree that there should be a simpler way but with all the confusion that has been raised I thought it useful to collate the information in one place.

As for the halfling gaps in sure they're are some errors especially as I don't think there have been official answers from HiG, I'm merely extrapolating from what HiG has previously stated.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Fritz_Spinne on October 23, 2015, 09:43:39 AM
Problem of the halfling gaps is HiG changed the rules, so some of the statements should be revised too.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: AlbinoAsian on October 23, 2015, 10:50:47 AM
Thanks for the clarification... our group will continue to play on the basis of a grid.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Safari on October 23, 2015, 11:49:59 AM
So there are 8 pages for the interaction of two mini-expansions with themselves and some other expansions? I think there should be a simpler way to explain the rules.

Btw I don't feel all of your statements to halfling-gaps are correct.
Thank you for the very nice and useful document, Guy. However, I have to agree with Fritz_Spinne, that you should incorporate the latest rule change.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Guy on October 23, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
Thank you for the very nice and useful document, Guy. However, I have to agree with Fritz_Spinne, that you should incorporate the latest rule change.

If you could point out the areas that need correcting my gaming group would appreciate it.  I assume it is how the dragon moves as now each halfling tile is a single tile...

Thank you.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Safari on October 23, 2015, 07:41:00 PM
Thank you for the very nice and useful document, Guy. However, I have to agree with Fritz_Spinne, that you should incorporate the latest rule change.

If you could point out the areas that need correcting my gaming group would appreciate it.  I assume it is how the dragon moves as now each halfling tile is a single tile...

Thank you.

Sure, here you are:

Interaction with Dragon, Tower, Flier: When counting "how far" every half tile should count as one tile (like with the Monasteries of the world). However, I can imagine, that these rules need some further clarification.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on October 24, 2015, 01:38:00 AM
Not to cover old ground here but Kettlefish did some excellent diagrams at the beginning of this thread showing how these tiles affect the landscape. When the Dragon moves; the distance is not the same as Flyers or Towers.  The Dragon is not forced to move in a grid system.

Guy I think one of your Barn pictures was wrong as well.  I seem to remember you need 5 tiles, but 4 tiles if some of them are halflings - kettlefish did a nice picture somewhere above.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on October 24, 2015, 01:47:03 AM
Thanks Guy for your nice document, but there are still some questions open (question 9 and 13).
My examples in the reply with question 9 is my own opinion, that is not official (the example on the left side is a perfect use for placement of a barn)
-------------------------------------
The examples with the dragon and the triangle tiles (at your page 6) = from where do you have this result?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Guy on October 24, 2015, 01:57:03 AM
Thanks guys, I'll look again at the diagrams kettlefish did and make sure all is fine (as best we know) for my gaming group.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Safari on October 24, 2015, 07:40:54 PM
Not to cover old ground here but Kettlefish did some excellent diagrams at the beginning of this thread showing how these tiles affect the landscape. When the Dragon moves; the distance is not the same as Flyers or Towers.  The Dragon is not forced to move in a grid system.
Unfortunately we lack all the clarifications for the Halflings, except for that one single statement. So at the moment we don't know what the Dragon does when he comes to a Halfling tile.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: obervet on October 26, 2015, 02:35:15 PM
Well, I had thought I was going to update the CAR a couple of days after kettlefish told me that the new answers were posted. For now I'm holding off, though, since I'm not convinced all the dust has settled yet.

For the record, I think 2 halflings should equal 1 tile (the old rule). I've played German Castles by the 2-tile interpretation, but I haven't used the dragon or the flier with it, so I see where issues would appear. (Our group did allow barn placement on the long edge, though.)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on October 27, 2015, 12:27:02 PM
I think Barn Placement in the middle of the long edge is the biggest issue of the "2-Tile"-version, considering the game mechanism. Because it gives a huge advantage to whoever has the right castle or placing the barn. Tactics to not place the 3rd tile for a nice barn spot are a main concern when playing with A&M, and this gets obsolete, when you can place "3rd and 4th tile" as one.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Carcking on February 10, 2016, 07:33:10 AM
Here's a bump to this thread of an obvious sore subject  >:D

Has this been answered somewhere? : If I extend a feature containing my Builder with a German Castle tile, do I get to draw another tile?

@Guy - I like your document. There are a couple of examples that could be better clarified and those are regarding the "around the corner" feature for Tower Range and Flier placement.

Also, your document did not address Gold Mines.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Christopher on February 18, 2016, 07:12:38 AM
Reading this thread has been great fun!

I like the idea of what they are trying to do. Stating that the double tiles are considered as one tile is consistent and allows most of the rule interactions to be deduced from that. However, I think it falls apart in practice as the reduced points for cloisters does not seem intuitive (I would not have thought of that just working from the 'one tile' statement' and features such as jumping dragons and plague, towers catching round corners and strange Flier patterns make this ruling odd.

For me, I have fallen into the 'two-tiler' camp. If the tile was considered to be two separate tiles that were placed at the same time with a castle across the two of them, I think this makes for more workable rule interactions.

Dragons, plague and towers would require two moves, tokens or pieces to cross the tile length-ways, and would only affect features depicted on that side of the tile. The side of the tile off of the tower's orthogonal line is safe.

A follower in the castle is considered between the two tiles and is therefore safe from dragons, plague, towers, etc. This is also consistent with the castles from Bridges, Castles and Bazaars (I like this consistency, because I consider it to fit with the aesthetic of the game. I told myself the BC&B castle follower was safe because he could barricade himself in his castle and defend himself from dragons and towers and quarantine himself to prevent the plague. It wouldn't make sense to me if the castle follower from GC wasn't safe in the same way).

The castle tile would count as two tiles for road, city, cloister or monastery scoring. A cloister with two spaces occupied by a castle would still score nine points, a road staring on one side of the castle and finishing on the other would get a point for each side.

Barns are still tricky, it depends on whether the original rules for barns stated four corners because they explicitly wanted it to need four corners or just because at the time of release there wasn't any way it couldn't be four corners. But, if you stick to two tiles, barns could be placed on the long edge, because two tiles would have two corners.

Fliers can only land on the feature depicted on the side of the tile they fly over. Then I was going to say that the flyer can land in the castle from either side, when I thought that it should probably be consistent with the BC&B castles, and I realised I don't know the answer to that! Can a flyer land in a BC&B castle? Whatever the answer is, these castles with the two-tile rule should be consistent.

For me, I think two-tiles works the best. It's how I'll probably play them.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on April 20, 2016, 02:59:07 PM
question 13 has been answered now - see here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on April 20, 2016, 05:02:59 PM
question 9 has been answered now - see here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: SRBO on April 20, 2016, 11:28:43 PM
question 13 has been answered now - see here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587)

Soo 13 is a "yes"
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on April 21, 2016, 12:25:10 AM
question 13 has been answered now - see here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587)

Soo 13 is a "yes"
Thanks SRBO - I've updated the YES in the posting - see the link above.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: totor66 on April 21, 2016, 12:26:11 AM
I do believe that question 9 needs a better explanation :)

We have similar tile positioning and sometimes barn is crossed and sometimes not
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on April 21, 2016, 02:54:38 AM
I do believe that question 9 needs a better explanation :)

We have similar tile positioning and sometimes barn is crossed and sometimes not
Hi totor66,
I've updated the question 9 and put another attachment to that posting.

Here is the link to question 9:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: kettlefish on April 21, 2016, 03:02:41 AM
For question 2 - I have also some more examples, but first I like to talk with Georg Wild from HiG before I upload the pictures.

here is the link to question 2:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572)
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: SRBO on April 21, 2016, 08:39:34 AM
For question 2 - I have also some more examples, but first I like to talk with Georg Wild from HiG before I upload the pictures.

here is the link to question 2:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572)

Whats the problem with it?
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: claudio_ferra on July 11, 2016, 05:00:45 PM
In my opinion if the German Castle is considered "two tiles" it's all very easy: all the Old rules doesn't change, the meeple in the Castle is placed between the two tiles, so the Dragon, Tower and Plague doesn't affect him. I think is the better and simple solution to preserve the mechanic of this great game.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Hounk on July 12, 2016, 04:29:26 AM
I still think, this would break the barn mechanics.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: claudio_ferra on July 12, 2016, 05:35:27 AM
The mechanic is not broken, but you have an advantage for placing it. In my opinion is not a good combination the german castle and the Barn. But if you use both, you can consider this advantage for all the players.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on July 12, 2016, 06:03:37 AM
The mechanic is not broken, but you have an advantage for placing it.

Whilst there isn't a formal definition of "broken" in this context, different people will have different ideas about what it means for something to be broken.

I happen to agree with Hounk on this one. I think it is broken because it disrupts the original intentions for Barn placement which says that they should be placed at the intersection of 4 tiles. Even though it doesn't make sense (to me) HiG have been quite insistent that German Castles are 1 tile so we're now agreeing that Barns can be placed at the intersection of 3 tiles if one of them is a German Castle. This makes it considerably easier to place your Barn and harder to block others from doing the same. This spoils a lot of the strategic play in this area, hence breaking them (for me).

Obviously players are free to play with any combination of expansions and to interpret the rules as they see fit. There is no doubt in my mind though that including Barns and German Castles in the same game and attempting to follow the "official" rules could lead to a broken game.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Rosco on July 12, 2016, 06:15:46 AM
Make it simple - german castles are 2 tiles and dont allow placement of the barn on the long side of the german castle.

all other rules then make sense.

it is ridiculous for a tower to be able to go around corners or for the dragon to suddenly have a bigger range because he is flying over a castle.  Ridiculous!
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: JT Atomico on July 12, 2016, 06:30:33 AM
I am still strongly in the 2-tile camp for everything, including barns. It only "breaks" barns in so much as it makes the strategy easier, but there are other combinations were this kind of thing happens. For example, being able to put your mayor in to the City of Carcassonne from The Count makes it much easier than originally intended to steal a pennant-filled city.

A clear and consistent set of rules is the most important thing and that means as few special explanations and exceptions as possible. For me, you get that when you think of the castles as two tiles joined together.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Decar on July 12, 2016, 06:31:53 AM
I'm with you, but unfortunately, even if the German Castle rules were improved; Halflings would still produce a huge number of problems.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: Rosco on July 12, 2016, 06:41:55 AM
Even halflings are simple - a hole is a hole.  distribute more halflings to combat unfinishable holes.  Or dont, if you lay your halflings early to trap someone else, you may be ina pickle later when you yourself are trapped.  But i do think that 1 or 2 halfling abbeys per person are absolutely essential.  I would love to see offical halfling abbeys or at least blank halflings.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: danisthirty on July 12, 2016, 06:46:04 AM
As a concept Halflings are quite simple and on the face of them the rules seem quite straight forward. Decar came up with some good examples of when they aren't quite so simple though, especially in their interactions with cloisters and each other.
Title: Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
Post by: claudio_ferra on July 12, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
I prefer to consider halflings with the old rules. So 2 hakf tile should be considered like one tile. In my opinion is the easy way to play with the other expansion.