10. Does a German castle count as 2 tiles for the purposes of scoring a cloister?
No, the German castle tile is one tile and counts as one tile for scoring a cloister
9. Does a German castle’s long edge count as 2 tiles for the purposes of barn placement? In other words, is the midpoint of a long edge counted as a corner that only needs 2 other tiles placed in order to build a barn?
This question is not yet resolved. Georg Wild and I had different opinions about it. So technically there are no 4 corners - the result of my opinion is NO. Gerorg Wild knows that, but he "feels" that the result will more a YES. So we will talk about it again.
So a complete cloister can only score 8 points if a German Castle is next to it?It can score 8 or 9 points depending on the orientation of the castle tile. With two castle tiles next to the completed cloister it could score between 7 points and 9 points (castle tiles facing away).
9. Does a German castle’s long edge count as 2 tiles for the purposes of barn placement? In other words, is the midpoint of a long edge counted as a corner that only needs 2 other tiles placed in order to build a barn?
This question is not yet resolved. Georg Wild and I had different opinions about it. So technically there are no 4 corners - the result of my opinion is NO. Gerorg Wild knows that, but he "feels" that the result will more a YES. So we will talk about it again.
I agree with you that it should be no for consistency purposes. In all other cases, German castles are being treated as one tile. Therefore, if there are two regular tiles alongside a German castle, this is not the intersection of four tiles but three tiles. And the CAR says: 'It [the barn] may only be placed on the point of intersection of four land tiles.'
Is the City of Carcassonne 1 or 12 tiles now; this will affect cloister scoring too. What about the WoF?Both the Russian City of Carcassonne piece and the Wheel of Fortune piece have white lines on them indicating that they're separate tiles, just in one piece for ease of handling. The german castle tiles have no such line, and an extra rule that they count as 1 tile (of 1x2 size). The City and Wheel are 12 and 16 tiles respectively, just in one playing piece.
It can score 8 or 9 points depending on the orientation of the castle tile. With more castle tiles next to the completed cloister it could score between 5 points (cloister surrounded by 4 castles) and 9 points (castle tiles facing away).
Both the Russian City of Carcassonne piece and the Wheel of Fortune piece have white lines on them indicating that they're separate tiles, just in one piece for ease of handling. The german castle tiles have no such line, and an extra rule that they count as 1 tile (of 1x2 size). The City and Wheel are 12 and 16 tiles respectively, just in one playing piece.
It is not possible to score 5 points. The first rule of the Castle is that they cannot be played with corners touching. Thus four cannot fit around a cloister.True, a max of two castles can border a cloister, for 7 to 9 points for a completed cloister (with the rules in these answers). I edited my previous post.
The Russian Carcassonne City tile was given away from HiG at Essen; so shouldn't be considered the Russian City of Carcassonne tile any more. There is no rule indicating that white lines or marks indicate separate tiles. The initial publication does not contain the extra rule regarding the Castles as one tile.I know about the HiG Carcassonne city piece, but I wasn't sure if it has the (white) lines on it, like the Russian version. The CAS refers to the WoF as a board consisting of 16 (4x4) tiles. And to Carcassonne city as a starting tile of 12 (3x4) tiles. I think the white lines are clear enough in their intent.
As to why a castle tile is worth 2 points when counting a completed (surrounded) castle (always worth 10+2=12 points) and the same castle tile is worth only 1 point when around a cloister... I have no idea. Maybe it's a bonus point because the castle is harder to complete, or because it's a fancy castle?
If the castle tile *would* be worth 2 points around a cloister then completed cloisters could get 9 to 13 points (with 4 adjacent castles to the cloisters.)
Cloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.
The Castle tiles are refered to as 6 double sized tiles in the rules. They're always called a single tile, just of double size. Never as 2 tiles in one piece or 2 tiles at once or 2 connected tiles.
Hi Dan,
On the flip side the German Castles can be played with many expansions that do not incur these issues. Namely all the favourites I&C, T&B as well as any number of the smaller ones.
Personally I think that the extra moving ability for the dragon will add to the chances of meeple eating which I am all for. That is the main reason for playing that expansion after all!
The German castle has more a function like a cloister.
Perhaps the original designer thought it was 2-tiles, so when completed it was worth two-points.That is what you were implying. And could be true. Or he could just have thought that it was 1 tile, but double the size so double points. Or it could be simple that 11 points isn't a nice round and easy to remember score and 12 is.
Hence why I said I'm not a fan of that option. Or the counts as 2 tiles option. imho the 1 tile option provides the simplest solutions.QuoteCloisters scoring their intended 9 points when completed could be done by counting "square base tile sized spaces" instead of "tiles" (and rephrasing all the rules since the base game) or by counting the castle as two tiles in one piece. I'm a fan of neither of those options.This makes even less sense. Rewriting the original base game rules to fit this mini-expansion is clearly careless.
This is inaccurate. The German rules call them "Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". They are literally double-landscape-tiles; they should be considered as such: 2 landscape tiles.https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQYmlNdHFMU2JGNms/view Here are the german rules. It states "6 Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". Later simply called "Burgplättchen".
I've drawn up a diagram to explain how the tower's reach could be affected by the German Castle with the rule...On the right is a Tower with the same range but near some German Castles.There's an error in the right diagram. The lower castle tile is indeed within reach, and so is the tile below the castle tile and below the tower, but the tile to the right of that is not within reach of the tower, it's not in a straight line down from the tower.
I’ve been giving this some thought and there’s a lot I don’t like about the idea of the German Castle tiles being treated as one tile...Personally I like the 1 tile rule, and all issues it brings are pretty easily resolved by just remembering it's 1 tile. I like the extra options for the dragon (and fleas), and the cloister and klooster scoring. The landscape being "warped" in scale is a minus, but it's not really a visible effect and doesn't bother me much. Towers capturing a follower on a feature on the half of the castle tile that isn't in a straight line is also a minus. But it would be very rare in an actual game.
Now we’re saying that if a GC is orthogonally adjacent to a tower, the tower can reach further in one direction than it can in the other. Yes it’s the same number of tiles in each direction, fine, but in terms of the aesthetic of the game the tower is now wonky and aesthetics are very important to a lot of people here. Another thing that now bothers me about towers is that if half of the double-tile is orthogonally adjacent to a tower foundation and there is a meeple on the other half of the tile (which isn’t adjacent to the tower), can that meeple be captured even though it isn't directly orthogonally adjacent to the tower? I assume that it can because it’s one tile ::) ...
Another ugly consequence is that the GCs now act as a kind of launchpad for the dragon...
Part of the joy of the game is that the landscape that develops is supposed to represent an actual countryside landscape. Pretending that two square kilometres is actually one square kilometre (or whatever the scale is) simply because a physical game tile that represents it is, is to introduce some major geographical distortions that will corrupt the game and spoil it for many players. :(
I just love consistency and logic in rules, so it's either 1 tile for everything, or 2 tiles in 1 piece played at once for everything.
I think part of the confusion comes from the Halflings. The Halflings are considered one full tile for things like cloister scoring etc. And this seems to work well. So when they made double tiles, perhaps they decided to stick to the same idea. But it looks like the German Castles create more complications than the Halflings in this way.
These are the complications listed so far in this thread arising from considering German Castles as one tile:
- barn placement
- dragon movement
- tower range
- plague range
- cloister scoring
- German/Dutch monastery scoring
- fliers (added by Dan)
There are quite possibly some more as well.
IF German Castles were considered two tiles, and not one, what would the complications be?
Does this mean they can enter into battles with the cult. Does it also mean a cult cannot be played near 2 castles or a castle and a cloister. Can castles be used to escape besieged cities?It says "like a cloister" as a comparison, not "as a cloister". German castles competing with cults would be silly. Escaping besieged cities to a german castle would make some sense, but there's nothing in the rules about that.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQYmlNdHFMU2JGNms/view Here are the german rules. It states "6 Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". Later simply called "Burgplättchen".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQSTUtM2hzakNDNmc/view In english it's "double-sized Landscape Tiles". Later called "Castle tile".
They're called double (sized) landscape tiles. Never are they called double tiles. There is no mention of 6 tiles consisting of 2 tiles. Just 6 bigger tiles.
If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).
But if the German castle tile would be like as 2 tiles - there will be enormous problems.
One example is the dragon or the flier, tower and so on.
If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).
Yes, you're right. I was thinking about this as I wrote it but I couldn't express it the way you did.
Having thought about it and read the other responses, I agree with you and Dan that the two-tile solution seems the most intuitive to me. In that case, if you claim a German Castle, you'd have to choose which side of the castle to claim for purposes of tower, dragon etc.
If you place a follower on the caste, with the "counts as 2 tiles" option, would it be on the left side, the right side, or "in the middle"? What if the dragon comes? What if the tower wants to take that follower?
If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?
With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?
It would also make problems with windroses.
Personally I'm still more inclined to follow the 1 tile rule. It fits the castles theme better, and I don't like putting my follower on the left or right side, or in the unreachable-by-the-dragon middle. People who don't like it as 1 tile can just play with a "counts as 2 tiles" house rule without any real problems as far as I can see.
@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.
Just like I said before. Double as in 2.
@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.Just like I said before. Double as in 2.
Guys, whether it's described as double or not doesn't matter. We are thinking more about the interaction between the German Castles and various other elements here in this thread than anyone else did before naming the tiles.
However, my argument is that whether you treat it as 1 or 2 tiles is critical to how the interactions between GCs and other expansions are handled.
4 points. Same as with school.School is 2 tiles. This is 1. With the answers in the first post in this topic it'd count for 3 points, with the "2 tiles rule" it'd count for 4 points.
Aother example of consequence of 1 tile or counts as 2 tiles rule. If 1 tile it would receive 1 gold.With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?Yes. Why shouldn't it?
I disagree with this, but recognise that this is just a personal preference. But how about the "counts as 2 tiles" rule be the official one as this is more consistent, logical and makes sense, others who prefer to treat it as 1 tile can house rule it as they wish?I don't think treating 1 tile as 2 is more logical or consistent. But I'd be fine with it. I thought the answers from HiG were (semi)official (or the next best thing) hence why I called the other option "house rule". If it was the other way around I'd call that the potential "house rule". Since neither seem to be offical yet they're all house rules anyway.
QuoteIf it's counted as 2 tiles, one of the tiles (half of the castle) might be or not be in the right north/south zone.It would also make problems with windroses.Such as?
Could you expand on this. I think this would work like the flyers and the Tower, when travelling lengthways it is considerd 1 tile. But if you are travelling widthways you consider it 2 tiles, so you can't hop across, unless you're a dragon.You're right. I deleted this from my list of other examples that might give problems or resolve differently with the 1 tile rule or the 2 tiles rule. It would work like the tower and flyers with strict horizontal/vertical rows.
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...
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For me it is easy - the German castle is one landscape tile - the dragon has only one move / step left - the 6th one - he can eat all meeple on that tile = 5 meeple.
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...
This is how I see it (as a 2-tiler). The dragon could move once North and eat the yellow meeple. The dragon could take a second move, WEST and eat 3 meeple. Some of us think it's thematically sound to keep the meeple in the Castle safe. It's an awfully big castle they are hiding in.
However If the meeple in the castle must be eaten I can see it:
i) Eating the Meeple when it goes NORTH because the Dragon can eat things in the castle.
ii) Only eating the meeple if it goes from Right to Left; because it moved across the castle....and attacked
...what should we do with the red meeple - it is in the middle of this landscape tile - if we decide to use it like 2 tiles - than we need a saw - a half meeple is still on the right side of the landscape tile. But together we decide, that would be a very bloddy Carcassonne game play...Is the meeple on the right tile? Yes, half of it. Since yes, the dragon eats it.
The main difference imho is not, that the school is two tiles, but that the school is a starter tile. Let's say, you have an unoccupied 3/4 loop and add the RRRR tile from base game and a thief. You get 4 points for that, not 5. Adding a GC to complete a loop road would be preety much the same, wouldn't it? This can never be the case with the school, because it was placed right at the beginning. So I wouldn't compare the issues of GC with any starting tiles.If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?
4 points. Same as with school.
So what are we saying about Decar's Tower demonstration in his post here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29643#msg29643 ?
the grey tile marked 3 on the right side below the GC should never be able to be captured by this tower.... and am sure, that this is according to the rules like stated above. However I like the "one tile concept" regarding the GC, and would consider it inconsistent otherwise, since the halfling tiles are not considered "half tiles" either.
I've added pictures for the tower question (No.7)
What I can’t accept is this:But that's, because you are thinking in "area" rather then in "tiles". A saloon car is still one car, and not two, even if it takes up the space of two. There's another tile laying game, "Castles of Mad King Ludwig", I'm not really familiar with, but I think, the tiles are of different shape, but they still count all as one room of a castle. The concept of Carcassonne with areas of the landscape coming out of the void, and holes, where no land area can be fit into, is completely abstract on it's own, so I wonder, what issues you have with a rule like this.
(http://www.dan.tehill.net/ImpossibleSquare.jpg)
That’s nonsense.
it just contradicts with the halflings.. sorry to add to the discussion,thanks SRBO for your nice picture - I have added some example pictures for question No.9.
but halflings are actually 2 tiles being 1 tile (because it takes 1 square).. while castles actually is 1 tile being 1 tile.. (but takes up 2 squares..).
Lol 1 thing which i now read from this discussion is this: (see attachment)
so a barn is allowed in this case? because there are 4 intersections! (5!!)
If I fire a catapult token across the width of a GC tile; can I then move it an extra tile in that direction, because the extra width is considered 'free' space in relation to the other tiles?
thanks SRBO for your nice picture - I have added some example pictures for question No.9.
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With the halfling tiles / triangle tiles - there will come a great surprise...
What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.
What a mess and not a problem if the GC was 2 tiles.But then it would be much to easy to place a barn, by simply placing your GC to a spot, with two corners of gras. Have you considered that? Case 2 is by far the most reasonable to happen. I don't think, that case 3 will ever be seen in an actual game. (Like the case, I mentioned before with the 4 halflings forming two field, which might be a spot for a barn.)
By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.That cloister is worth 9 points. That is already covered by the rules.
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:But with this, he contradicts earlier statements by HiG. So two Halflings forming the shape of one regular tile in the surrounding of a Cloister lead now to the case, that the Cloister is scorning 10 points, if completed later in the game?
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:But with this, he contradicts earlier statements by HiG. So two Halflings forming the shape of one regular tile in the surrounding of a Cloister lead now to the case, that the Cloister is scorning 10 points, if completed later in the game?
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:I wouldn't mind if each tile surrounding a cloister would be worth 1 point. Even the half ones. After all they're tiles. Why would 2 half tiles in different spaces be worth 2 points, and 2 halves in 1 square space be worth 1 point? But the rules (the german ones that came with halb so wild) explicitly explain 2 halves together is worth 1 point for cloister scoring (with an example even).
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
the barn might be served by two individual farms. In this case, it would be interesting to know, if a farmer connected to either of them, scores for both farms (because the barn serves kind as a connection of the farms), or just for the one, he is placed on.Interesting situation, I'd like an answer for this as well. I'm guessing since the fields are not connected the farmers just score their own field. The barn in this pretty unique case is on two farms.
WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...
WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...
This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction. Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0
What can I say - the rules were not clear enoughOn some accounts, the rules get a little more complicated now, see Decars cases with different combos of Halflings and GCs.
So that's also, why in "Case 4" the barn should not be placed, because the "hypotenuses" edge is a neglected edge, likewise it is "non existing".I get why it should not be placed in "Case 4", but not why it is ok to place in "Case 3".
By logical extension this completed cloister is now worth 16 points.
WHAT?! A contradiction in the extended rules of Carcassonne? I never thought I'd see the day...
This is not the first time HiG has decided to change its mind on rulings of expansion interaction. Recall the Dragon was updated twice in 24hrs when a rule clarification was published earlier this year: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1677.0
At Spiel 2015 in Essen I talked with HiG - Georg Wild.
I told him, that the triangle tiles give us many problems...
I put two triangle tiles together. On each triangle tile is a road segment - both road segments continued the road:
I asked Georg Wild: How many points it this road worth?
He answered: 2 points
Georg Wild then looked at me - his eyes wide open - and then his great answer:
If the road segments on triangle tiles are worth 1 point, than each triangle tile is worth 1 point in the surrounding of a cloister.
2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.
After reading all of this amazing discussion (at CarcF we had a similar debate on the Halflings in late 2014) I have to admitt that I'm on the 2-tilers side as well. For me "the grid" has always been a fundamental part of the Carcassonne experience, and also will in the Future. The new HiG "1 tile policy" clearly breaks with this fundamental Carcassonne constitutional law. However, I'm glad that at least after that clarification we don't apply double standards for Halflings (two half tiles count as one complete tile) and the German Castles (one double-tile counts as one complete tile as well).2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.
Welcome to the light side Jamie! :(y) I'll PM you about the secret handshake... :))
2-Tiler checking in! I'll house rule that way no matter the outcome. And two halflings will make 1 tile. I agree with Dan, it's about the area of the playing field and the aesthetics around that.Also agree. Despite a few logical reasons for considering the German Castle to be a single "tile", most of the reasons defy logic. Does this, in effect, also mean that standard Castles (from BC&B) convert the two tiles into one since they seamlessly merge the two parts of the City into one Castle? I think not. Likewise, I will continue to treat German Castles as two tiles for function's sake, and I seriously doubt many others will adopt or assume the new official interpretation of the tiles' rules.
double standards for Halflings (two half tiles count as one complete tile) and the German Castles (one double-tile counts as one complete tile as well).
So there are 8 pages for the interaction of two mini-expansions with themselves and some other expansions? I think there should be a simpler way to explain the rules.Thank you for the very nice and useful document, Guy. However, I have to agree with Fritz_Spinne, that you should incorporate the latest rule change.
Btw I don't feel all of your statements to halfling-gaps are correct.
Thank you for the very nice and useful document, Guy. However, I have to agree with Fritz_Spinne, that you should incorporate the latest rule change.
Thank you for the very nice and useful document, Guy. However, I have to agree with Fritz_Spinne, that you should incorporate the latest rule change.
If you could point out the areas that need correcting my gaming group would appreciate it. I assume it is how the dragon moves as now each halfling tile is a single tile...
Thank you.
Not to cover old ground here but Kettlefish did some excellent diagrams at the beginning of this thread showing how these tiles affect the landscape. When the Dragon moves; the distance is not the same as Flyers or Towers. The Dragon is not forced to move in a grid system.Unfortunately we lack all the clarifications for the Halflings, except for that one single statement. So at the moment we don't know what the Dragon does when he comes to a Halfling tile.
question 13 has been answered now - see here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587)
Thanks SRBO - I've updated the YES in the posting - see the link above.question 13 has been answered now - see here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29587#msg29587)
Soo 13 is a "yes"
I do believe that question 9 needs a better explanation :)Hi totor66,
We have similar tile positioning and sometimes barn is crossed and sometimes not
For question 2 - I have also some more examples, but first I like to talk with Georg Wild from HiG before I upload the pictures.
here is the link to question 2:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572)
The mechanic is not broken, but you have an advantage for placing it.