Poll

How would you describe your view of the difference in art styles?

C1 Purist - I don’t want any C2 visuals clashing with my C1 beauty.
26 (27.7%)
C1 Converter - I will buy minimal C2* and convert it to C1 aesthetics.
14 (14.9%)
C1 Preferrer - But I will mix in minimal C2* as needed/desired.
9 (9.6%)
Dual-Moder - I have both styles; we play one or the other, but usually not both together.
20 (21.3%)
Mix/Matcher - I don’t care about aesthetics, it all plays.
6 (6.4%)
C2 Preferrer - But I will mix in a few C1 things (if affordable/cool/essential/whatever).
3 (3.2%)
C2 Converter - I will convert my C1 stuff to C2 aesthetics.
2 (2.1%)
C2 Purist - I don’t want any C1 visuals clashing with my C2 beauty.
14 (14.9%)
Other - explain in thread.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 94

Author Topic: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style  (Read 25703 times)

Offline Just a Bill

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Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« on: July 26, 2017, 11:22:04 AM »
* As of this writing, “minimal C2” probably means things with new gameplay: abbots, gardens, circus elements, and/or the gingerbread man.

I'm starting with a poll to try to identify the basic different views people have and get a sense of the proportions, but what this thread is really about is my own evolving response to the artwork change.

I started out as a C1 Purist and had no intention of buying any of the new stuff (for multiple reasons). But two things caused me to reevaluate: a cheap price on the new base game, which I've had for a few weeks now, and the continuing good reports on the gameplay worthiness of Under the Big Top, which I just picked up yesterday from my FLGS. And yesterday is when I decided I must actually be a C1 Converter instead.

In this thread I'll be dumping out some work-in-progress examples of my evolving attempts to convert garden, circus, and acrobat tiles to a C1 art aesthetic, for discussion and critique. (But don't expect a downloadable Big Top tileset; more on that later.) Along the way, I'll probably have some related legal/philosophical thoughts.

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3486.0
My stuff: The Caverns of Carcassonne | Wheel of Fortune versions | True North (wind roses) | Icon facelifts | Converting CII to CI | Signposts & the Château | The Vault | Riverboats & the Whirlpool | trade list

Offline Christianmocking

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 11:23:52 AM »
Cool. Look forward to seeing that!


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Offline Paul

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 11:29:12 AM »
I replied Dual-moder.

But in general, I could play using v1, v2, Ark, South, Discovery etc etc in a single game if I'm drunk enough.  >:D
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Offline ny1050220

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 11:34:58 AM »
I'm not sure if I fit in any of of purist/converter/preferrer definition, so I chose other.
Right now, the "playable" version of my game is in C1. So, practically I'm a C1 purist. But... I do have very limited C2 expansions, i.e., Japanese temples and labyrinth, never played. And I am seriously planning on getting C2 when there is a big box available with "good" expansions (in my discretion) and when I have enough space for all of my junk at home.
That said, I probably will not buy C2 in the near future, but ultimately I see myself owning both versions. It's just like an entry in the bucket list. I'm gonna do it, one by one, just not all of them all at once.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 11:51:25 AM »
ultimately I see myself owning both versions.

Would you play both? If so, then depending on whether you would play them separately or together, I'd say that makes you (ultimately) either a Dual-Moder or a Mix/Matcher.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 12:13:17 PM »
My "C1 Converter" attempt at Gardens

My initial attempt at making C1 garden tiles was very simple and obvious (I posted more on this in another thread about speculating/fantasizing on what HiG could give us as kind of a last-ditch C1 promo set).



But this really isn't the right approach. In that thread, thodekey was encouraging about my efforts but pointed out that the mixture of the two styles just doesn't look right. And I quite agree. So after that, I started looking for elements in C1 that I could turn into a garden, and discovered that there already was a full garden (albeit a large, palacial one) on my Bentheim Castle tile:


So I hacked that around a bit, adding more trees, reorganizing it, and crunching it down into a somewhat more generic, slightly less "royal" kind of garden. It's nowhere near perfect, but at least the fountain is gone and it is definitely in the C1 art style. I'm still mulling over whether I think this idea is good enough or not to warrant spending the time to try homebrewing the tiles.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 09:54:48 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline Halfling

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 12:44:06 PM »
Halfling is a Mix/matcher. I just want to play. Aesthetics be damned.
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Offline TheSteveAllen

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 01:00:36 PM »
Halfling is a Mix/matcher. I just want to play. Aesthetics be damned.

I tend to agree with you halfling, but I do try and use one or the other style if at all possible, but if I want to play 'Under the Big Top' and 'The Catapult' together (as has been suggested elsewhere), I don't think that the fact that one is only available in C1 style and that the other is only available in C2 style stop me. In other words, as you said, "I just want to play Carcassonne".

 :(y)

Offline thodekey

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 02:21:47 PM »
My "C1 Converter" attempt at Gardens

In that thread, thodekey was encouraging about my efforts but pointed out that the mixture of the two styles just doesn't look right. And I quite agree. So after that, I started looking for elements in C1 that I could turn into a garden, and discovered that there already was a full garden (albeit a large, palacial one) on my Bentheim Castle tile:


Well, Just a Bill, I agree on this one: that garden matches way better the C1-artwork!  Another CC-member also made a beautiful variant with apple orchards, sunflower fields and lavender-fields but I can't seem to find it back. (or was it a dream?)  :yellow-meeple:
Another possibility could be to just add the vineyard from Hills and Sheep and use it in the same way as a garden?

Hmmm, reading my comment again: I guess, I revealed myself as a C1 purist.  ;D
Never say never, but I don't feel like buying the C2 stuff: I got rather late in the C1-artwork and then rushed into buying all that was still available for a fair price.  When I almost succeeded there...they bring up the new artwork.  Being a purist in my job and mind, mixing those 2 artworks, just doesn't work for me.  To conclude: in the end, it's not even a matter of wether I prefer the C1 or C2 artwork (ok, I admit it: I prefer the C1 but nevertheless...)...I just don't like the idea of mixing 2 artwork styles and if that would mean that I had to buy everything again in the new artwork to match with the newest expansions...well, then I prefer to spend that money on other games. 

So, in the end: honestly, I'm a bit relieved the C1 artwork came to an end...the C1 stuff I have has enough variation to keep a Carcassonne game fresh, interesting and...free from artwork mix-ups.  :P. The Tunnel, Cathar and Crop Circle 1 expansions still missing from my collection are in that way more of a Holy Grail then something I absolutely need for variation.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 05:36:37 AM by MrNumbers, Reason: Link fixed »

Offline wolnic

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2017, 03:17:44 PM »
The garden artwork you mention for CarcI originated on the German Carc Forum. There were several different designs used.

There has also been a recent thread about gaining permission, from the publishers, for the forum to fan release (as download PDF/PNG files) a limited number of commercial expansions in the "other" artwork style. For example producing the Abbot/Gardens and Watchtowers in CarcI style, but this may extend to other expansions such as "Under The Big Top". A significant amount of effort has gone into getting this sorted out.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 04:08:44 PM by wolnic »
AutumnForest (C2), Catch Of The Day (C1/2/WD), Cliffs&W'falls (C1/2), Coast (C1/2), FishHuts (C2), Fluvium (C2), NewForest (C2), Harvest (C1/2), Stone Circles (C1/2), Wells (C2), Jordan River 2 (AotC), River I/II (GR)
Devt: Sakura (C2), WinterEdge (C1), WinterCoast (WD/WE) and others

Offline wolnic

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 03:32:23 PM »
I'm dual mode, but definitely not never ever "together".

I began with CarcII, but once I began to develop my own tiles/expansions, I needed to get hold of CarcI as well. I'm a player, not a collector, so I don't need to collect everything - and most have been punched. As a tile designer/developer I'm more interested in what I can cannibalise so have been selective what I've bought. From that creative point of view, the original artwork is, I feel, easier to work with. And there were (a year ago) loads more expansions in the old artwork (official and fan) to use and adapt. I don't see myself buying any of the expansions (P&D or later) for CarcII.

Depending on the type/size of game we decide we want to play, we'll pick either CarcI, CarcII or Winter, as I have a different set of expansions/tiles available for each (other than base game, I&C, T&B and river).

Offline ny1050220

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 04:45:22 PM »
ultimately I see myself owning both versions.
Would you play both? If so, then depending on whether you would play them separately or together, I'd say that makes you (ultimately) either a Dual-Moder or a Mix/Matcher.
OK, in that sense, I'm a dual-moder. I really want to see the expansions now exclusive for one version being available someday for the other, even if being fan-made, so that I don't have to mix them, 'cause I don't want to do that.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 07:27:54 PM »
Another possibility could be to just add the vineyard from Hills and Sheep and use it in the same way as a garden?

Yep, I've considered that too, and may try it the next time I play.

So, in the end: honestly, I'm a bit relieved the C1 artwork came to an end...the C1 stuff I have has enough variation to keep a Carcassonne game fresh, interesting and...free from artwork mix-ups.

Have to admit I felt this way too ... and then I went and ruined it all by buying the C2 base game on sale.  ::)

And now some of the boring legal/philosophical stuff I warned about.

Initially I did not want to "support" C2 financially. In every part of our lives (food, housing, transportation, entertainment...), I think it's important to use our wallet to vote for the quality we want. If we don't do that, we train companies that they can feed us any old crap (high-fructose corn syrup, Hewlett-Packard home printers, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace) and we will still pay for it. When something we love changes in a way that it stops being what we want/need, for some of us there is the hope that if we don't support the new version of the thing, maybe they will go back to the old version. But often this is a foolish hope.

But of course, setting aside the controversial artwork changes, the "supplementalization" of farming to become optional, and the issues with the style, accuracy, and organization of the new rulebooks, there are some good things about C2. The visual overhaul appears to be bringing in some new players, and the new expansion mechanics thus far seem positive — positive enough that I want to play them. And so arises the ethical question a person in my shoes must face: buy the thing I want but don't really want to support, or homebrew it? Ultimately I think I must support it. HiG/KJW created some new gameplay that looks like it will have value to me, and I should pay for the privilege to own it just like everyone else.

But having decided to let them have my dollars after all (dangit), I still don't want to mix the art styles. So I'm becoming a "converter" (or at least trying to). I have no guilt about this since I have actually purchased, new, the two C2 products I want to play. Because of that, creating alternate art for myself in no way infringes on HiG's intellectual property or causes them to lose a sale — as long as I don't distribute it. And this point is pretty important.

Hence my comment above about not posting a downloadable Big Top tileset when I'm finished. When discussing copyrights and trademarks, people often make ignorant statements like, "But I'm not selling anything!" However, the legal protections aren't about profit; they are about distribution. We're not allowed to distribute materials that would infringe on anyone else's IP, regardless of the benefit (or lack) to ourselves. If we make available for distribution a knock-off item that causes even one person to use the knock-off instead of buying the actual thing, then we have robbed the IP holder of a sale; and that's not right.

So if and until there is some kind of permission from HiG to post such things, I think we need to be careful about posting downloadable, print-ready alternative tiles that directly compete with product they are trying to sell. We should restrict what we put up to only a few limited examples, and they should be in low resolution.

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 08:11:36 PM »
My "C1 Converter" attempt at Circus tiles

Again, I want my replacement tiles to "look and feel" like the rest of classic Carcassonne, and probably the best way to do that is by finding C1 elements that fit the tile's purpose. So everything you see on the tile on the right comes from some classic Carcassonne tile somewhere (well, except the watermark; I fabricated that).

Here I'm not actually trying to create an element-for-element conversion (for example, I'm making no effort to represent all the various small items, or the tent poles lying on the ground). I'm happy if I just get kinda close to the right feel and the tile's gameplay purpose is unmistakably clear.

I realize my tile is too visually busy; either there are too many elements, or too many colors, or both. This isn't intended to be a finished design, just a proof of concept. Basically I was trying to see if I could come up with a suitable variety of tents without them seeming too repetitive (the siege/besiegers tiles use a very limited number of tent shapes).

Unfortunately some of the tents are a little blurry; I'm still lacking the Besiegers tiles and thus can't make a high-res scan.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 10:00:08 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline Carcatronn

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 10:56:49 PM »
Dang guys, you've stepped up your game here! Really keeping C1 alive  :))

You now have gotten me wanting to do all the garden tiles and circus tiles with this art. Oh boy  ::)
PM me for for a list of remaining items from the Carcassonne Shoppe.


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