Carcassonne Central

Carc Central Community => General => Topic started by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 03:22:10 AM

Title: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 03:22:10 AM
La Porxada is an unofficial expansion.  It was not sanctioned by the the Carcassonne publisher and license owner Hans Im Glueck. 
Only 72-stickers were produced and given out at the Jugarxjugar 2010 fair.

I'd like to lobby BoardGameGeek to consider re-list this tile because I believe it's current status is driving illegitimate tiles to be produced and sold for a black-market.
It's essentially impossible to tell if a produced tile is real or not, because they were only produced as stickers, on what appears to be a home-printer.
Artwork contained on these tiles belongs to the Publisher and it is illegal to produce and sell them.
As I said, I think the BGG is misleading to less-experienced Carcassonne collectors and the mythical status of this tile is driving a black-market.

The question is what should it be listed as.  Currently, only fan-expansions must be listed as such. BGG States that the tiles were designed by Klaus-Jürgen Wrede, though this is not cited anywhere, so I believe the expansion is not a fan-expansion even though it is unofficial.

I currently feel the term:  'authorised-expansion' would be the most suitable.  Quite literally: it's sanctioned by the author and not the publisher.


As I mentioned earlier, there are several other tiles which are also mythical in status.  If BGG feels the author's sanctioning is enough to list it as an official expansion; I believe the alternative is to list Dan's Advent Calendar Quiz Tile (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2970.msg47790#msg47790) should also be listed on BGG:  It has been signed by the Author, and it's a sticker and not offcially recognised by the publisher.

Some of your thoughts on this would be appreciated!
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: dirk2112 on June 30, 2017, 04:16:44 AM
I don't think it matters how you classify it, people are going to want it.   

If publishers truly have no desire to ever print La Porxada, Darmstadt, and a few other tiles (Corn Circles I) ever again, it would be nice if they would declare it abandoned intellectual property.  That way it would be legal for someone to reproduce them and fans could complete their collections.  I don't know why publishers hold on to things that have no value to them. 

Think of all the records and movies that never made the transition to new formats. 
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 04:30:46 AM
I think the desire is driven by the mislabelling though:

Darmstadt and Corn Circles I - were printed and published by HiG they are of a totally different status, which I'm not considering here.
It doesn't make sense for them to abandon La Porxada... It never existed to them.

Check out this fan-expansion for 7 Wonders attached - I don't see many people creating nock-offs of these because they're labelled correctly.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Squiffything on June 30, 2017, 05:00:24 AM


Check out this fan-expansion for 7 Wonders attached - I don't see many people creating nock-offs of these because they're labelled correctly.

 :-X :-X :-X   ::) ::) ::)

I'm saying nothing :)
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 05:02:28 AM
Sorry I should have been clearer:  "Creating knock-offs to SELL"
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Squiffything on June 30, 2017, 05:12:38 AM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Just a Bill on June 30, 2017, 05:30:58 AM
I don't know why publishers hold on to things that have no value to them. 

Because they can't be sure it will never have value for them in the future. They can see that there is no tangible value to them in abandoning the IP, but there just might be future value in holding onto it.

Frankly most content publishers don't give a crap how satisfied we are with the completion status of our obsessive collections. They are concerned with protecting and expanding their future income possibilities. (And that's perfectly rational.) When we want something that we don't yet have, that equals potential food on their table.

The irony is, they want to satisfy our wants, but they never really want to fully satisfy our wants or they're out of business.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Yashin-n on June 30, 2017, 05:36:00 AM
In my opionion only the person vested with author's rights can claim about their violation. If You are not an official representative of KJW, HIG or other publisher You can't claim copyright infringement because this case does not affect You  (Your rights are not violated).This is a legal approach to the matter.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: danisthirty on June 30, 2017, 06:18:34 AM
In my opionion only the person vested with author's rights can claim about their violation. If You are not an official representative of KJW, HIG or other publisher You can't claim copyright infringement because this case does not affect You  (Your rights are not violated).This is a legal approach to the matter.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that only HiG/ KJW and/ or their legal representatives are allowed to call people out on copyright infringement because they're the ones affected by it? I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I'm pretty sure that that's not how it works. On the contrary, as fans of the game we are supporting those who make it and should feel obliged to help look out for stuff like this. Nobody wins if we all let it go and the publishers go out of business because of it...
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Yashin-n on June 30, 2017, 07:38:21 AM
I agree with you that we should support official publishers and Author/Designers of the game. We can inform them about the facts of illegal distribution of unofficial  tiles/expansions. And they (and not we) have to decide whether these people violate THEIR (not our) copyrights or not (maybe KJW  is happy that La Porxada is sold on BGG ).
 And  I believe that the best way to deal with illegal sellers -  don't buy their product. It is good personal decision of each of us.

In my opionion only the person vested with author's rights can claim about their violation. If You are not an official representative of KJW, HIG or other publisher You can't claim copyright infringement because this case does not affect You  (Your rights are not violated).This is a legal approach to the matter.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that only HiG/ KJW and/ or their legal representatives are allowed to call people out on copyright infringement because they're the ones affected by it? I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I'm pretty sure that that's not how it works. On the contrary, as fans of the game we are supporting those who make it and should feel obliged to help look out for stuff like this. Nobody wins if we all let it go and the publishers go out of business because of it...
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 07:40:28 AM
Thank you all for the input so far.

Personal decisions are based on the information that person has available to them.  I think the information on BGG is currently inaccurate.  I think it should be adjusted to reflect the status of the expansion.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Yashin-n on June 30, 2017, 09:35:51 AM
Sorry, Decar! But what status of La Porxada do you mean? Site BGG call it unofficial expansion, publisher and designers are listed. What's wrong?
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 09:38:45 AM
I'd like to lobby BoardGameGeek to consider re-list this tile because I believe it's current status is driving illegitimate tiles to be produced and sold for a black-market.

The question is what should it be listed as.  Currently, only fan-expansions must be listed as such. BGG States that the tiles were designed by Klaus-Jürgen Wrede, though this is not cited anywhere, so I believe the expansion is not a fan-expansion even though it is unofficial.

.....

I currently feel the term:  'authorised-expansion' would be the most suitable.  Quite literally: it's sanctioned by the author and not the publisher.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Yashin-n on June 30, 2017, 10:32:36 AM
Designer (Oriol Comas) is  listed, artist - too,   so it is clear that there is copyright for the mini expansion. Distribution of copyright is defined by agreement (oral or written) between KJW and Oriol Comas (and maybe HiG and Devir).
Where do you want to insert "authorised " in the site of BGG? Instead of designer, publisher or someone else?
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Just a Bill on June 30, 2017, 10:40:51 AM
I currently feel the term:  'authorised-expansion' would be the most suitable.  Quite literally: it's sanctioned by the author and not the publisher.

This makes sense to me.

As an aside:
All this discussion has led me to read the rules for this tile again, and I have to say that they are pretty leaky (poorly defined). Users on BGG asked some (unanswered) questions, and I have others. Unfortunately, the English text in CAR 7.4 is more of a loose paraphrase than an actual translation of the original La Porxada rulesheet (I can read Spanish). For example, "any player who had a knight in the city containing La Porxada may score all unfinished cities containing his or her followers as if they were finished" does not have the same implications as the original, which translates as "all the cities not completed by the player or players who have knights in the city where La Porxada exists [do] count as if they were finished." There are multiple significant differences there: optional vs. mandatory, certain players vs. everyone, counts for scoring only itself vs. counts for scoring anything (or any other purposes). So I'm adding this to my list of things to revisit/discuss for the CAR update.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 12:18:22 PM
Interesting Bill, the poorly defined nature of the rules is another indicator of its dubious status.  The unanswered questions won't be answered by Hans Im Glueck either.

Fan expansions are required to be listed different and include the words:  fan-expansion in the title, to make it extremely clear as to the status of an entry.  I believe something similar should be added to the tile of La Porxada.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Just a Bill on June 30, 2017, 01:04:16 PM
Interesting Bill, the poorly defined nature of the rules is another indicator of its dubious status.

Agreed. The more I discovered how clunky and leaky the rules were, the less it felt like a "real" part of Carcassonne. Now I do understand that apparently KJW considers it official, but La Porxada nevertheless faces multiple challenges in its struggle to appear legitimate. Only a sticker, fewer than 100 produced, disavowed by the publisher, awkward gameplay, lacking the markers it needs to track eligible players, unanswered questions, lack of good translations, lack of official rules support, underwhelming artwork ... it's pretty anti-elegant in most of the ways we could measure quality. A raggedy kind of tile that basically fails the Carcassonne quality test.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on June 30, 2017, 01:11:54 PM
And like I alluded too in my original post.  If La Porxada can be listed as an expansion.  Then there's no reason why Dan's Advent Calendar Tile can't be listed either:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/postman/20170630_210644.jpg)
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Mr Meeple on June 30, 2017, 03:40:59 PM
I think it would be helpful to change the description text and inform players that it was given out as limited stickers and not as tiles and that the stickers were signed. Beside the original and signed stickers, copies do exist, that were signed as well. Hence it is difficult to say which ones are really original if you don't know the background of a sticker. But it should be clear, that nearly all tiles that are offered nowadays are not original. Maybe La Porxada will loose attraction if people know that it only was released as a sticker  :P

In my opinion expansions like Fortune Teller are authorised expansions - former fan expansions authorised by the publisher. I think labelling La Porxada as an authorised expansion won't stop people of buying it, simply because it is "authorised".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was designed by Oriol and Klaus just accepted it or was it a coproduction? BGG states Oriol as the designer, but in the description both are mentioned. If it was designed by Oriol it should be a fan expansion.

If the publisher has not authorised it, it is unofficial. It is tricky, but in my eyes it is an unofficial fan expansion just accepted by the author  ;) I'm not sure, but I think the publisher owns all rights , hence the author can't authorise it, just accept or tolerate it.

Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: dirk2112 on June 30, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
And like I alluded too in my original post.  If La Porxada can be listed as an expansion.  Then there's no reason why Dan's Advent Calendar Tile can't be listed either:


I'd like to have seen KJW's reaction when Dan asked him to sign those tiles.  I wonder if he called the police afterward.   :))
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Yashin-n on July 01, 2017, 12:02:47 AM
I'm not sure, but I think the publisher owns all rights , hence the author can't authorise it, just accept or tolerate it.
It depends on conditions in copyright transfer agreement between an author and a publisher. In the beginning rights is a  property of an author and then he or she (may)  transfer (sell) it to the publisher (other person) forever or on definite period of time.
The interesting situation is for promo tiles (Spiel 14, 15, 16, 17) and Russian promos. Who is an author?  I guess this is not KJW but a designers of  the publishers. So if La Porxada was designed by Oriol  Conti for Devir and published by Devir it has the same status that promo tiles and promo expansions. I think it is not just  fan-expansion. Promo-miniexpansion is more correct (accurate) term for it that fan-expansion.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Whaleyland on July 01, 2017, 12:35:21 AM
I agree with Yashin-n. I think La Porxada likely has the same legal status as other company-exclusive expansions such as the Games Quarterly expansion and Cult, Siege & Creativity from Rio Grande, and anything from Spielbox. They are not "official" Hans im Glück expansions, but they are distributed by an official distributor, in the case of La Porxada, Devir. If Devir distributed it, then it is just as official as any of the other company exclusive expansions regardless of Klaus Jürgen-Wrede or Hans im Glück. It doesn't matter if it is a sticker or a real tile. I think the best option to finally put this matter to rest is for somebody to contact Devir about the matter.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Mr Meeple on July 01, 2017, 02:44:22 AM
If Devir distributed it, then it is just as official as any of the other company exclusive expansions regardless of Klaus Jürgen-Wrede or Hans im Glück. It doesn't matter if it is a sticker or a real tile. I think the best option to finally put this matter to rest is for somebody to contact Devir about the matter.

If Devir was authorised to publish it, I agree with Yashin-n. Really makes sense to contact Devir in this case.
Title: Re: The Status of La Porxada
Post by: Decar on July 01, 2017, 07:26:37 AM
I don't believe they were authorized, I'm not sure it's clear they even distributed it.  I will contact Devir.  Regarding Spielebox, I believe their expansions are produced under license.  Cundco sells their magazines.  I would be surprised if HiG did not sanction the expansions they're selling.