Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: evmillan on December 30, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
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Happy Holidays!
After reading the CAR 6.4 on these vacation days, I saw 3 possible corrections:
1.- According with the footnote 367 on page 120:
If the Festival is used to remove a follower, the Phantom can still be placed on that turn.
Is necessary update the Order of Play on page 164, Step 3E, because you don't have to skip the step 4F.
2.- On page 172, Other Scoring at the End of the Game, is necessary to include the reference to the 3 points given to feature where the fairy is next to a follower, following the rules on page 48
3.- After the newer clarifications of The Princess and The Dragon rules, 12/2013, the chart on page 173, relative to the
volcano / deployment, must stand that you cannot deploy follower, builder or pig, or could to say may deploy the
barn, play a tower piece, deploy a follower to the Wheel of Fortune.
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Happy Holidays!
After reading the CAR 6.4 on these vacation days, I saw 3 possible corrections:
1.- According with the footnote 367 on page 120:
If the Festival is used to remove a follower, the Phantom can still be placed on that turn.
Is necessary update the Order of Play on page 164, Step 3E, because you don't have to skip the step 4F.
2.- On page 172, Other Scoring at the End of the Game, is necessary to include the reference to the 3 points given to feature where the fairy is next to a follower, following the rules on page 48
3.- After the newer clarifications of The Princess and The Dragon rules, 12/2013, the chart on page 173, relative to the
volcano / deployment, must stand that you cannot deploy follower, builder or pig, or could to say may deploy the
barn, play a tower piece, deploy a follower to the Wheel of Fortune.
Good eyes! I have updated all of those spots in the CAR for the next version.
Of course, in looking through the CAR and making the changes, I came across a question of my own. It seems like it had been officially answered before, but I couldn't find the answer. If a player uses the Festival to remove a follower, can he or she still move the fairy? By the spirit of the rules, it seems like the answer is "no" since the Festival ability effectively replaces the move wood phase. However, the rule for the fairy states that the fairy can be moved "when a player does not deploy a follower or [other figure]". Since a figure was not deployed, by the letter of the law this might be legal. Thoughts?
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Of course, in looking through the CAR and making the changes, I came across a question of my own. It seems like it had been officially answered before, but I couldn't find the answer. If a player uses the Festival to remove a follower, can he or she still move the fairy? By the spirit of the rules, it seems like the answer is "no" since the Festival ability effectively replaces the move wood phase. However, the rule for the fairy states that the fairy can be moved "when a player does not deploy a follower or [other figure]". Since a figure was not deployed, by the letter of the law this might be legal. Thoughts?
move wood phase:
- Fairy
- Festival: remove an own figure (follower, pig, builder, barn)
- Princess: remove a follower (own knight or a knight from an other player)
I say: NO for the "remove an own follower" for the Festival.
I see it in the "move wood" phase like the Princess...
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I suggest to include in The Rivers Section (River I or River II) or like an appendix in the Reference Guide an excellente article written by John Sweeney about The River expansions, with these topics:
- What is a "U" turn?
- Are you using any extra rules to ensure that the river can be completed?
You can read it here: http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonnetheriver.htm (http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonnetheriver.htm)
Although these are House's Rules, they're a good approach to HiG rules and the most important is I think that this House's Rules are implemented in the Carcassonne iOS App, and this game has a huge player base.
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I'm not sure if this qualifies as errata or not, but the Pig section is rather ambiguous as to whether you can benefit from someone else's pig on a farm you won. It's implied by the fact you only remove the pig when all farmers are gone (in contrast to the builder, which you remove when all your knights or thieves are gone) but it's not very clear.
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CAR v6.4 - page 15 - rule final scoring and the footnote 28:
As soon as the feature in question has been scored, the followers involved are removed.
28 - This sentence, based on an FAQ, was added into the RGG rules at a later point in the text.
This rule is since many years an official rule at HiG.
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I'm not sure if this qualifies as errata or not, but the Pig section is rather ambiguous as to whether you can benefit from someone else's pig on a farm you won. It's implied by the fact you only remove the pig when all farmers are gone (in contrast to the builder, which you remove when all your knights or thieves are gone) but it's not very clear.
Only a player's own pig can provide extra points on a farm. Additionally, the pig is removed when that player's farmers all disappear, not all farmers of all players. I agree that the CAR v6.4 rule is ambiguous in this, but other official versions of the rules are more definitive, so I have updated the wording in the CAR. Thanks for catching this!
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I suggest to include in The Rivers Section (River I or River II) or like an appendix in the Reference Guide an excellente article written by John Sweeney about The River expansions, with these topics:
- What is a "U" turn?
- Are you using any extra rules to ensure that the river can be completed?
You can read it here: http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonnetheriver.htm (http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonnetheriver.htm)
Although these are House's Rules, they're a good approach to HiG rules and the most important is I think that this House's Rules are implemented in the Carcassonne iOS App, and this game has a huge player base.
I agree that this article is a good read. However, I would not be able to include it in the CAR without the author's permission. Additionally, the official HiG stance for the board game is that a river may not necessarily be completed, and that any tile (including a river tile) that cannot be played is removed from the board. Thus, while the author makes good points for common sense play, those are not official rules.
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CAR v6.4 - page 15 - rule final scoring and the footnote 28:
As soon as the feature in question has been scored, the followers involved are removed.
28 - This sentence, based on an FAQ, was added into the RGG rules at a later point in the text.
This rule is since many years an official rule at HiG.
That is true, and I have deleted the footnote. I think there are a few more footnotes that are so old that they probably bring more confusion than clarity at this point, but I haven't had time to hunt them down. I'm still leaving footnotes about more major changes to the old rules (like differences in farm scoring and whether pigs and builders are followers) since there still could be players who have those old rules, which could cause confusion if they didn't realize that a change had happened.
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German rules for the basic game Version 2013 at Schmidt Spiele:
http://www.schmidtspiele.de/media/files/48125_Carcassonne_DE.pdf (http://www.schmidtspiele.de/media/files/48125_Carcassonne_DE.pdf)
This rules follows the new style like the Winter-Edition. There are also more examples for how to place a tile...
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CAR v6.4 - page 163 - game figures:
Matt Harper used a scan from the phantom-box, but he never scan the real meeple:
Here is a picture with the blue meeple of the:
- Phantom (8mm) - blue is also the complete body
- Teacher (10mm) - blue is only the surrounding, not the body
(http://www.carcassonne-forum.de/gallery/image.php?album_id=13&image_id=976)
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Forgive me if this has already been pointed out as I am new to these forums but I wanted to point it out nonetheless.
Prior to making this post I did my homework so to speak and combed over the german HiG rules for the River II expansion and it does clearly state that if you don't have the corresponding expansion with regards to the pig herd, inn and volcano that those features then mean nothing. Now I know that in v6.4 of the CAR it is stated as a house rule that technically because the pig herd is scored separately from the pig that the bonus from the pig herd then could still be applied even if you are not playing with the Traders & Builders expansion. This house rule makes sense BUT I think it no longer need be considered a house rule. If I may reference page 4 (the last page) of the pdf of the English rules (by ZMG) for the River II (technically apart of the Count, King & Robber expansion) found here, http://zmangames.com/rulebooks/Carcassonne_Exp6.pdf, it says at the bottom, "If you are playing without the corresponding expansions, the inn and
the volcano pictured on the following tiles are ignored."
Notice how unlike the German rules from HiG it makes no specific mention of the tile with the pig herd (pigsty as ZMG calls it). To me this implies that the pig herd can be scored without playing with the Traders & Builders expansion.
Again I apologize if this was already pointed out or if ZMG came forth and clarified this matter but I felt it worth noting regardless.
P.S. I LOVE the CAR and especially how helpful it has been for me and those I play with.
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Notice how unlike the German rules from HiG it makes no specific mention of the tile with the pig herd (pigsty as ZMG calls it). To me this implies that the pig herd can be scored without playing with the Traders & Builders expansion.
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Hi DaFees,
that is a great found:
RGG: pig herd
ZMG: pigsty
HiG: Schweineherde (German)
I wil add this to the dictionary:
Dictionary - World of the Game Carcassonne - German/English (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=182.0)
Welcome to our community
Greetings
kettlefish
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Not that I think it matters too much since RGG is no longer the english publisher, but I think I just found something BIG (and forgive me if this was already noted). I was looking through the rules set for RGG's Big Box 3, as found here, http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=527 and I noticed on page 9 that (as it is noted in the CAR) it says "If placement of the tile completes a feature, it is scored as normal. Then, the game is briefly interrupted while the Dragon moves!" HOWEVER, however, if we jump to page 15 they list a turn sequence. Step 2 of this sequence is "MOVE" WOOD. At the end of step 2 it says "if necessary, DRAGON JOURNEY (the Princess & the Dragon)" Then the sequence moves onto step 3 also known as SCORE. To me, even though it contradicts the previous statements it clearly implies that dragon movement occurs BEFORE scoring.
Again, forgive me if this was already noticed before, but if something like this was noticed I would have thought for sure it be given attention in the CAR.
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Hi DaFees,
The issue that you are raising is a well-known difference between the RGG/ZMG and HiG rules on dragon movement. This is actually dealt with in the CAR in footnote 129 (v6.4) and further explained in the Summary of Rules Sets and Changes on page 173.
The CAR takes the HiG rule (dragon movement before scoring) as canonical, as per page 50:
A player who places a dragon tile may deploy a follower or move the fairy as usual. 127 128 Then (before scoring) the game is interrupted129—the dragon is on the move!
Hope that helps! Do keep raising these differences as you find them :)
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Hi DaFees,
The issue that you are raising is a well-known difference between the RGG/ZMG and HiG rules on dragon movement. This is actually dealt with in the CAR in footnote 129 (v6.4) and further explained in the Summary of Rules Sets and Changes on page 173.
The CAR takes the HiG rule (dragon movement before scoring) as canonical, as per page 50:
A player who places a dragon tile may deploy a follower or move the fairy as usual. 127 128 Then (before scoring) the game is interrupted129—the dragon is on the move!
Hope that helps! Do keep raising these differences as you find them :)
I think you are missing my point. I've read the CAR and I know it follows HiG in that dragon movement happens before scoring. ZMG of course follows HiG. I also know that footnote 129 does say that per RGG rules scoring happens before dragon movement. However what I am saying is I think found information to the contrary. I am saying that per RGG's Big Box 3 rule set it says that scoring happens both before AND after dragon movement. Look at the rules .pdf I linked. Go to page 15 of that document and tell me what you see?
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I think you are missing my point.... I am saying that per RGG's Big Box 3 rule set it says that scoring happens both before AND after dragon movement. Look at the rules .pdf I linked. Go to page 15 of that document and tell me what you see?
I see it DaFees. Good find. There is a contradiction there, which means RGG almost got it right - but instead, even worse, left confusion. I'm not sure I see the value in pointing it out in the CAR. The contradiction to HiG has already been pointed out. The goal really is to establish the CAR as the master rule alignment resource. That has been accomplished relative to RGG at least. The challenge is getting the word out.
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Z-man Games will publish the Minis 1-6 in the tuckboxes.
(this year in April)
Obervet,
we have to look in the next coming ZMG rule for each mini.
Then you will see the change of the rule for the minis from RGG (tuckbox) to ZMG (BigBox) also ZMG (tuckbox).
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Wasn't The Tunnel originally released in SpielBox? The CAR says Hans im Glück.
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Wasn't The Tunnel originally released in SpielBox? The CAR says Hans im Glück.
You are correct -- the Tunnel was released in Spielbox. I have changed the subheading to reflect that.
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we have to look in the next coming ZMG rule for each mini.
Then you will see the change of the rule for the minis from RGG (tuckbox) to ZMG (BigBox) also ZMG (tuckbox).
You can download the individual minis rules from the ZMG website already.
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In CAR 6.4 pdf document, notation 100, there is a link to an image Cathars expelled.JPG but the link is spelled wrong, lacking either a blank space or an underscore between Cathars and expelled, leading to a wikipedia error page.
On another note, found the original artist for the image (if not already knew) to be Boucicaut Master.
http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XB053185/The-expulsion-of-the-Albigensians-from-Carcassonne?img=15&search=Boucicaut+Master&bool=phrase (http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XB053185/The-expulsion-of-the-Albigensians-from-Carcassonne?img=15&search=Boucicaut+Master&bool=phrase)
:meeple:
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In CAR 6.4 pdf document, notation 100, there is a link to an image Cathars expelled.JPG but the link is spelled wrong, lacking either a blank space or an underscore between Cathars and expelled, leading to a wikipedia error page.
On another note, found the original artist for the image (if not already knew) to be Boucicaut Master.
http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XB053185/The-expulsion-of-the-Albigensians-from-Carcassonne?img=15&search=Boucicaut+Master&bool=phrase (http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XB053185/The-expulsion-of-the-Albigensians-from-Carcassonne?img=15&search=Boucicaut+Master&bool=phrase)
:meeple:
Updated. Thanks!