A maze of rules

[Darwin]

The multiple expansions of Carcassonne have made it very hard to keep up with all the rules and how the different expansions interact. The CAR helps a lot. But even this document doesn’t have all the answers.

The CAR is, in my opinion, too big to be practical to use when you play the game. A lot of players are not so geeky as me, and don't sort the different expansion after each game. They play with what they have of expansions each time, and don't know in which expansion for example the Barn belongs. For a player, who don't are familiar with which element who is included in which expansion, it can be quite frustrating to find what you are looking for in the CAR.

This inspired us to make our own “rule-book” who is sorted after the different elements. As we play with some of our own and fan-made expansions, we have also included these in our “rule-book”. Over the years we have edited the “rule-book” every time we introduced a new expansion and when we discovered that some issue wasn’t addressed. We have also included our house rules for those rare instances when the CAR doesn’t provide an answer.

We have made our “rule-book” as an interlinked PDF-document, which we use on an iPad. This has made the game more enjoyable for us and it’s very rare that we have a discussion concerning the rules when we play. We just look it up.

Our “rule-book” - unfortunately in Norwegian.

Maybe it’s an idea to make a smaller version of the CAR for players who knows the basics of the game? This will not exclude the big CAR as the ultimate reference, but an interlinked small version that works on a tablet is very handy during a game.

I realise that it would be a huge task to make this, and I am unfortunately not up for the job since my English is not that good. Besides I already have this in Norwegian. But maybe someone else will be up for the task? If not, maybe this will inspire some of you to make your own “rule-book”, with the expansion you have and your own house rules.

PS: This is not intended as a criticism of the CAR. The CAR is the ultimate resource for Carcassonne and I am one of those who are really looking forward to the next version!


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1298.0

[glh510]

Great work (even if i dont' understand any word ;-)

I love the idea to sort the rules by the different tiles. As the questions occur in this order. 

[MrNumbers]

The CAR helps a lot. But even this document doesn’t have all the answers.
[...]
Over the years we have edited the “rule-book” every time we introduced a new expansion and when we discovered that some issue wasn’t addressed. We have also included our house rules for those rare instances when the CAR doesn’t provide an answer.

I am curious, what are these issues and rare instances? Any example?

[Darwin]

The CAR helps a lot. But even this document doesn’t have all the answers.
[...]
Over the years we have edited the “rule-book” every time we introduced a new expansion and when we discovered that some issue wasn’t addressed. We have also included our house rules for those rare instances when the CAR doesn’t provide an answer.

I am curious, what are these issues and rare instances? Any example?

The issues, I referred too, are situations that we have overlooked I our own “rule-book”.

There are very few instances when the CAR doesn’t provide an answer. But one that comes to mind is: Does the Plague affect the Pig, Builder and Shepherd? This question is likely to never get an official answer and you have to make your own house rule. Another was: Can you use the Flier to fly to a Monastery as an Abbot? This was answered recently her on CarC by kettlefish, and I assume her answer will be included in the next CAR. A question that's awaits an answer, to my knowledge, is: Can you portal to a Monastery as a Monk if it is occupied by an Abbot (or the other way around)?

The new Halflings have also raised some questions about the new Crop Circle, the sheep and the counting and scoring with the half tiles. For the moment we use our house rules for this, but are looking forward to the next version of CAR with the rules for the Halflings. 

[Carcking]

Wow Darwin! That is a fantastic document. I would like to have it in English for sure. I am very impressed that you have included so many of the fanmade expansions.

I use the Search function all the time in the CAR. If I need to find the rules for the Barn, for example, I search "Barn". This does take me through every reference in the entire document, true, but it does tend to round up all the references in other expansions that affect the barn.

If all of those references were sorted in to one page for the Barn, that would be very quick and powerful. When it's used during game play it would be very expedient and incredible useful.

I wish I read Norwegian   

[Darwin]

The question from MrNumbers made me think!

Her are some other examples when CAR doesn’t provide a clear answer:
Monasteries and the Phantom - Can you both place a follower as an Abbot and a Phantom as a Monk on a Monastery?

Towers and the Phantom - Can you place the Phantom after a placement of a Tower piece?

Portal and a field with the Barn - Can you portal to a field with a Barn and score as a connected farmer?

Messages and scoring of Monasteries - Can you score a Monastery with the Message: “Score a follower and remove it from the board”? This would be interesting in a big game when you are short of followers.

Messages and scoring of a farm - Can you score a farm with the Message: “Score a follower and remove it from the board”? This would be interesting in the last stages of the game if you do not have the majority on a farm.

You can maybe “read between the lines” to get the answers to these questions. But in my humble opinion, doesn’t CAR give a clear answer.

[Darwin]

If all of those references were sorted in to one page for the Barn, that would be very quick and powerful. When it's used during game play it would be very expedient and incredible useful.

Yes, it’s very powerful and saves a lot of time as a quick reference when you play. We started with our “rule-book” in 2012 when the different rules began to pile up. Back then we didn’t know of the CarC and CAR. From then on it have just kept growing.

[Whaleyland]

I agree that having an "Element" CAR would sometimes be more useful. I think that's possible with the existing CAR though through a very simple expansion of the table of contents to include the specific playable elements within that table. Or, perhaps better, an element index on the last page of the document that has a hotlinked alphabetical listing of all the elements so players can just tap on it and go straight there. It may not be a perfect solution, but I think it would fix both issues.

[MrNumbers]

Monasteries and the Phantom - Can you both place a follower as an Abbot and a Phantom as a Monk on a Monastery?
No. Quote from CAR:

The player may deploy the phantom to it as a second follower (on a second feature).

And footnote 382:

Just like a normal follower, the Phantom can only be deployed to an unoccupied feature.

So, the feature is the same and occupied.

Towers and the Phantom - Can you place the Phantom after a placement of a Tower piece?
Clear answer in footnote Nr. 384 - YES.

The phantom may also be placed as a second piece in addition to the builder, pig, or any other “move the wood” piece such as movement of the fairy or placement of a tower piece.

Portal and a field with the Barn - Can you portal to a field with a Barn and score as a connected farmer?
No. Explicitly the answer to this question is given in footnote 147:

The magic portal only allows followers to be deployed to tiles that can be legally occupied according to the usual rules, as if the player had just placed the tile in question.

Messages and scoring of Monasteries - Can you score a Monastery with the Message: “Score a follower and remove it from the board”? This would be interesting in a big game when you are short of followers.
It is still a follower after all. So the answer should be, definitely, yes.

Messages and scoring of a farm - Can you score a farm with the Message: “Score a follower and remove it from the board”? This would be interesting in the last stages of the game if you do not have the majority on a farm.
Actually you DO need to have the majority on a farm to be able to use this message. If you do, then you can use this message to your farmer.

[Paul]

CAR is great as it is, albeit could use some sort of revamp. It's just that it's a lot of tedious work and for one man it's nearly impossible to do it in a year if you have other commitment.

When people find something unclear, it's always good to post on the forum and hopefully get an answer that might have been missed finding in the CAR, or maybe something is missing and we hopefully can update the CAR soon enough.

Remember to use the search function within the PDF as it helps a lot.

An element based could be useful, no doubt. Hopefully we can see one some day, maybe an interactive one.
  One of my project was just this. A simple webpage you choose which expansions you play with and during game progress you only need to click on an element that exist in your current game and it shows every rule there is which correlate to those expansions / elements playing with.

Sadly, it was put on halt like much else Carcassonne for Winter is coming, or has come.  My big free time and little work literally gets reversed. 

[Darwin]

Monasteries and the Phantom - Can you both place a follower as an Abbot and a Phantom as a Monk on a Monastery?
No. Quote from CAR:

The player may deploy the phantom to it as a second follower (on a second feature).

And footnote 382:

Just like a normal follower, the Phantom can only be deployed to an unoccupied feature.

So, the feature is the same and occupied.

Towers and the Phantom - Can you place the Phantom after a placement of a Tower piece?
Clear answer in footnote Nr. 384 - YES.

The phantom may also be placed as a second piece in addition to the builder, pig, or any other “move the wood” piece such as movement of the fairy or placement of a tower piece.

Portal and a field with the Barn - Can you portal to a field with a Barn and score as a connected farmer?
No. Explicitly the answer to this question is given in footnote 147:

The magic portal only allows followers to be deployed to tiles that can be legally occupied according to the usual rules, as if the player had just placed the tile in question.

Messages and scoring of Monasteries - Can you score a Monastery with the Message: “Score a follower and remove it from the board”? This would be interesting in a big game when you are short of followers.
It is still a follower after all. So the answer should be, definitely, yes.

Messages and scoring of a farm - Can you score a farm with the Message: “Score a follower and remove it from the board”? This would be interesting in the last stages of the game if you do not have the majority on a farm.
Actually you DO need to have the majority on a farm to be able to use this message. If you do, then you can use this message to your farmer.

I still think my list is a good example of questions where CAR doesn’t give clear answers. Except the “Tower and the Phantom” example where I missed a footnote (luckily we got it right in our own “rule-book” ). For all these questions we have ended up with the same answers as you. But that's not my point. In my humble opinion are the answers to the questions not so easy to find, and are typical candidates for time consuming discussion during a game. When we play, we don't want these kinds of discussions. We just want to enjoy the game. That's way we made our own “rule-book”. We take the discussion once and for all, with the help of the CAR and CarC. Then it’s settled, and we write it up I our “roule-book” under the respectively figures and features.

A good example of a discussion we had recently is the “Monasteries and the Phanthon”. It’s not clearly stated if the Monastery are one feature that can only be occupied by a Monk or an Abbot, and not both at the same time (with the exception of the use of a Flier and maybe the Count) - or if the Monastery is “two features in one” (score differently at different times in the game - thus “two in one”). kettlefish cleared up the question with the Flier her on CarC, but a question that's awaits an answer, to my knowledge, is: Can you portal to a Monastery as a Monk if it’s already occupied by an Abbot (or the other way around)? If the answer to this is NO - I agree with you. But if the answer is YES - I don't. At this point we have agreed that the Monastery is one feature, as you do. But we are not sure. My girlfriend still argue that the Monastery is “two in one” because the flier can choose what to occupy, when it flies in (a Monk or a Abbot), when it’s already occupied. In her mind the flier can only occupy it as the same if its one feature (not “two in one”). I don't agree with her but…

Another good example is the recent discussion here on CarC regarding the Princess and the Phantom. Se Princess<-->Phantom rule clarification

My point with the examples is not that the answers can’t be read out of the CAR. The point is that it’s quite easy for different people to interpret the rules differently in some instances. I want clear answers right away when we play with an expansion that we haven’t used in a wile and don't quite remember exactly how it interacts with the other expansions. The CAR doesn’t always give you that clear answer right away.

I still love the CAR and we have used it extensively for our own “rule-book”. But when we play, it’s our own “rule-book” that's rules.

My suggestion was only that maybe it’s not a so bad idea to make a version of the CAR who is sorted by the different figures and features as a quick reference guide when you play. It’s only a suggestion. Based on my own experience with our “rule-book”, which I wanted to share with you.

[MrNumbers]

My answer's main point also wasn't to criticize your suggestion! I also think that it is good idea: to sort CAR by elements and if someone sometimes will do that, I will definitely use it!
My point was that in CAR we can find the answers almost at any question. We already had some discussion in different thread - how clear and deep clarification should be. If we include into CAR every obvious question, CAR could grow to 1000 pages and more

[Darwin]

My answer's main point also wasn't to criticize your suggestion! I also think that it is good idea: to sort CAR by elements and if someone sometimes will do that, I will definitely use it!
My point was that in CAR we can find the answers almost at any question. We already had some discussion in different thread - how clear and deep clarification should be. If we include into CAR every obvious question, CAR could grow to 1000 pages and more

I totally agree with you. The way the CAR it organised it would be a gigantic document if it should include all. But our “rule-book” is only 53 pages, and it includes all the official expansions and quite a few of the fan made, and that's some of the fan expansion that has rather complicated rules. But of course it’s without the obvious rules that you learn wile playing with only the base game and I am sure that we have forgotten something.

I think you would manage to make a complete “quick guide” for the experienced player in less than 100 pages if it was sorted on figures, features and symbols.

I really don't want to offend someone, but you just have to cut what you don't need and only write:
- What it is
- How it works
- What you can do with it
- What you can’t do with it
- What affects it
- What don't affect it
… for each figure, feature and symbol with as few words as possible and no footnotes (they are in the CAR). I would be very surprised if you need more than one page for each - and maybe 2-3 pages for the end of the game with final scoring.

It’s just a suggestion and it will not exclude the CAR as we now it as the ultimate reference. It will just be quick guide when playing the game.

Maybe I will give it a try some time in the future. Then you can criticise me for my bad English and for what I missed to include.

[Safari]

My compliments for the great document! I really like that you created something like fact sheets. One could create similar file cards. Oh, I like file cards!
In my mind, this is a great addition to the CAR! 

[obervet]

I agree that having an "Element" CAR would sometimes be more useful. I think that's possible with the existing CAR though through a very simple expansion of the table of contents to include the specific playable elements within that table. Or, perhaps better, an element index on the last page of the document that has a hotlinked alphabetical listing of all the elements so players can just tap on it and go straight there. It may not be a perfect solution, but I think it would fix both issues.

I just have to point out here that there is an element table of contents in the current CAR, immediately after the main table of contents. That part doesn't have hyperlinks, but most pdf viewers will let you type in a page number to go directly to that page.