Poll

How do you primarily use The Cult?

To rival opponents' cloisters.
4 (22.2%)
As normal cloisters (i.e., I avoid rivalries).
13 (72.2%)
I use it in some other creatively strategic manner (describe below).
0 (0%)
I don't ever play with The Cult.
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Voting closed: November 21, 2014, 02:03:29 AM

Author Topic: The Cult – Element of the Week #10  (Read 14611 times)

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 11:28:38 AM »
I'm also going to say that I disagree with obervet and mjharper's choice to call this expansion element "Shrines and Heretics". I think the intention is very clearly to portray these as heretical, pagan, and/or heathen cult centers. "Places of worship" to be sure, but much more in the vein of a pagan temple than a simple heretical sect. That's what we have the Cathars for, they were a quasi-heretical sect of Christianity. I see no Christian overtones with the Cult. I don't think the tiles need to be called anything but Cults or Cult tiles and the whole argument against that, begun by Rio Grande when they released their own version, is ridiculous. I'm not sure what Z-Man calls it, but I am arguing for simply "Cults". Certainly not "shrines".

I'm not sure if Matt Harper had a specific reason for naming/translating the expansion as he did -- I don't have immediate access to the CAR materials right now. However, a shrine is not specific to Christianity; any religion can have shrines to its deity/deities, so a pagan shrine would still work. And I think of a cult more as a group of people, not a building, so to me calling the building a shrine makes more sense than calling it a "cult" and is less cumbersome than "cult place."
All true, but I feel that the expansion itself is called The Cult and that that terminology should just stick throughout. I'll have to check out the original German rules again to get my own perspective on what Hans im Glück originally wrote.

Offline Big Guy

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2014, 08:23:54 AM »
Great idea for the next element, Whaley.

I'm with the majority here: when I play using cults, I usually place them to avoid confrontation. Like others have said, the challenger in many cases starts out behind, and the rules that govern how there can only be one cloister/shrine pair can make tile placement a bit more clunky.

That said, I like any expansion that pays attention to the cloister mechanic, and for anyone interested, I recommend playing with both Cults, and with the rules from Chris Korfmann's MISSIONARY fan-expansion. In the MISSIONARY fan-expansion, Chris incorporates a form of a common 'house' rule for Cults: that when a challenge is won, the winning player scores for both his feature, and the challengers feature as well. This energizes the cloister/shrine challenge and makes it more enticing and fun, IMHO.
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Offline Hounk

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2015, 04:36:20 AM »
I had a JCZ game with farin a few days ago, which I lost with quite a big gap, but I had there one special use for a cult tile, which might be of interest here.

Farin placed two adjointed cloisters with monks earlier in the game, I challenged one of them with a shrine. There was a gap adjointed to all three buildings, which could have been filled only with the two cloisters with one road from the base game. At least one of them had been available at that time in the game, I think even both. So I basically blocked two of farins meeples and one of mine. Filling the gap with an other cloister was impossible afterwards, because then two cloisters would have been adjointed to my cult tile.

In the end it did not work out completely like I wanted it to be. I considered the gap important to block one of farins farmers from my big farm, and he still found another way inside, but still: what I want to point out is, that a cult tile in some occasions can be an option to trap two (or even more?) rival meeples while trapping just one of yours.

Offline Carcking

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2015, 10:23:29 AM »
... but still: what I want to point out is, that a cult tile in some occasions can be an option to trap two (or even more?) rival meeples while trapping just one of yours.

That is very interesting. I had never considered to use a cult place that way. It's good to know that JCloister has got it right too.  :(y)
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline Christopher

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2016, 03:47:29 AM »
Cults are great (I seem to be saying that for all expansions!) as they add a new element to cloisters which was much needed following additions to roads and cities such as inns and cathedrals. The artwork is great and the concept/thematic addition is wonderful.

The problem I have with them is that they often just end up as extra cloisters. Adding these tiles to a few expansions makes too many cloisters-scoring features if they aren't used to start a challenge. I've tried a number of ways to get around this. For a while we tried playing with a rule that you HAD to place a cult place/cloister so that it started a challenge if there was a place to do so. This was too restrictive, however, and if the previously laid cult/cloister had a head start, the challenging player almost always lost. We tried changing the score so that the winning challenger scored 18 points (9 for each feature) but most people still avoided a challenge. What did work reasonably well though was changing the range of the challenge. We played a few games where a challenge would be initiated with any cult/cloister within a two tile boundary, i.e. in the eight tiles surrounding or in the 16 surrounding those. This didn't change the completion requirement of the feature, the cult/cloister was still complete when surrounded by nine tiles. It just changed the range at which a challenge could be initiated. This was quite good, as there were more challenges and less of a chance that the other person would have a bigger head-start. The problem, however, is that it occasionally meant you couldn't start a challenge because there were multiple incomplete cloisters/cult places in that range which prevented placement.

Overall, I like the cults, and very often use them with siege tiles. Now if only we had a flooded road tile...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:14:29 AM by Christopher »
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Offline Whaleyland

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2016, 02:43:15 PM »
Interesting idea, extending the range. But I see your problem. Since we're already in the realm of variants, one option is that a player may designate the cloister being challenged if multiple cloisters are applicable. I'd say that any cloisters in the immediate periphery would have to be challenged, but after if there were none then any in the second ring could be challenged. It would definitely change things up a bit. You could use a Tunnel token or something similar to designate the challenged cloister. There would also (obviously) have to be a rule that a challenged cloister or cult place could not be challenged by a later placed cloister or cult place.

..ooh, question time...

Offline Christopher

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Re: The Cult – Element of the Week #10
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2016, 02:59:23 PM »
I think you're right, designating the cloister/cult to be challenged would be the best way. Trying to reconcile multiple challenges would get messy, but prohibiting the playing of these features next to another if they all have a double range would be too restrictive.

If the cult/cloisters can be played anywhere and the player must choose a cloister/cult to challenge if there is one in range, you could have more challenges without causing problems. Good idea about the tunnel tokens. I also like the idea of the inside ring coming first and the outer ring second, although it makes this variation we're discussing slightly more complicated. And yes, a cloister/cult cannot be involved in more than one challenge.


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