Author Topic: Clarification of rules - Wagon  (Read 17679 times)

Offline kirby2003

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Clarification of rules - Wagon
« on: March 25, 2013, 06:27:13 AM »
I need some clarification about Wagon:

220 Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighboring] for the Wagon? If two
city walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another?
Answer: “Connected” means roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly “into” a
city or a cloister
. Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles). So the wagon has
to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all.

In the example of rules, where BLUE scores 14 points for the city (page 70 S-Car v.6.2), why Blu Wagon doesn't deploy to the cloister?  :D

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=214.0

Offline MrNumbers

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 07:54:51 AM »
why Blu Wagon doesn't deploy to the cloister?  :D

Because wagon cannot drive through two completed roads. Wagon can drive ONLY to adjacent uncompleted feature (in this case, road to the right).

The other thing is, as I already asked in the old forum, that you can drive from city to another city only on one particular tile, that one from footnote 37 (in current 6.2 edition of CAR).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 08:01:54 AM by MrNumbers »
"I never lose. Either I win or I learn." (Nelson Mandela)

Offline kirby2003

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 08:03:35 AM »
The adjacent uncompleted feature possible are the 8 tiles around the wagon, like the cloister?
Thanks for all :red-meeple:

Offline Joaquim00

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 11:16:23 AM »
Let me tell you my understanding of the wagon rules first.  (My questions are at the end.)

When a wagon is on a road, and when that road is completed and scored, the wagon can move onto a non-field feature (road, city or cloister) that is directly attached to the ends of that road, provided that those features are incomplete and unoccupied.
In the case of the blue wagon on the left-hand-side of page 70 in CAR 6.2, the just-completed road has the following features attached to its ends: one cloister, and two roads.  Blue wagon can move to the cloister and the vertical little road (because they are unoccupied and incomplete), but not to the horizontal little road (because it is occupied by red).

When a wagon is in a city or in a cloister, most usually the wagon could only move onto an (unoccupied-and-incomplete) road that leads into the city or cloister.
In the case of the blue wagon on the right-hand-side of page 70 in CAR 6.2, the just-completed city has the following roads leading into the city: the vertical little road to the north, and the horizontal little road to the east. The wagon could only go to the horizontal little road to the east, as the vertical little road to the north is already complete. (The blue wagon cannot move beyond one road, and hence cannot travel all the way up to the cloister.)

I guess that there are the following situations when a wagon can travel from a completed city or cloister to something other than a road.

1. The city-to-city situation described by MrNumbers, with the CRCR tile described in footnote 37. This tile comes with Inns & C and the Festival.  (Paldies! I have never thought of that possibility).
2. Between a city and a cloister that exists within it. There is one such tile in Princess & Dragon.

What I don't know is whether a wagon can travel between an abbey and a touching city. (I assume a wagon can travel between an abbey and a road that it 'breaks off'.)  Also not entirely clear to me are cases where two roads run into a bazaar, catapult fair, or corn circles (in corn circles 2).  (I know there is footnote 221, but that is still not clear enough to me...)

 

Offline jvnoledawg

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 01:02:57 PM »
Also not entirely clear to me are cases where two roads run into a bazaar, catapult fair, or corn circles (in corn circles 2).  (I know there is footnote 221, but that is still not clear enough to me...)

I believe that one could finish a wagon road connected to a bazaar, and drive "through" the bazaar (never mind what kind of GTA-like havoc it would cause) and stop on the other road, provided such road were unoccupied and incomplete.
JLV

Offline kirby2003

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 01:42:19 PM »
Thanks  Joaquim00 for you clarifications  :@ :@

Offline Carcking

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 02:27:45 PM »
Also not entirely clear to me are cases where two roads run into a bazaar, catapult fair, or corn circles (in corn circles 2).  (I know there is footnote 221, but that is still not clear enough to me...)

I believe that one could finish a wagon road connected to a bazaar, and drive "through" the bazaar (never mind what kind of GTA-like havoc it would cause) and stop on the other road, provided such road were unoccupied and incomplete.

I would agree with this. The one thing I would add is if the feature is "occupiable" (if that is a word) then the wagon cannot drive through. It must take the first occupiable feature. Take a Shrine for instance - The wagon cannot drive through a shrine to get to a road on the other side because the shrine is able to be occupied. However he would be able to drive through a catapult fair because it is not an occupiable feature.

Typically, the wagon moves from a road to a feature, or from a feature to a road, or from road to road. He can however drive from an abbey to the city it abutts, or from such a city to the abbey, as well as to or from a road terminated by the abbey.

Also, when driving onto a feature the player may decide on which tile of the feature to land. This may make a difference with such expansions as Tower, P&D, Plague, etc.

For a city to be "connected" to a road the road must end at a gate in the city wall. A road that touches a city wall incidentally is not connected to the city. Also, a road that runs through a city via tunnel (see A&M tile) is not connected to the city.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline Tyroq

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 09:08:48 AM »
The one thing I would add is if the feature is "occupiable" (if that is a word) then the wagon cannot drive through. It must take the first occupiable feature. Take a Shrine for instance - The wagon cannot drive through a shrine to get to a road on the other side because the shrine is able to be occupied. However he would be able to drive through a catapult fair because it is not an occupiable feature.

Interesting idea. My group has always played that you can drive a wagon through anything as long as there is a road, and then occupy something unfinished on the other side. But I kinda like your idea that it has to take the first occupiable feature. I'll float that to them next time we play.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2013, 01:17:56 PM »
Also not entirely clear to me are cases where two roads run into a bazaar, catapult fair, or corn circles (in corn circles 2).  (I know there is footnote 221, but that is still not clear enough to me...)

I believe that one could finish a wagon road connected to a bazaar, and drive "through" the bazaar (never mind what kind of GTA-like havoc it would cause) and stop on the other road, provided such road were unoccupied and incomplete.

We have now a clear definition of "feature" - please look at the dictionary.

Here is a part from the dictionary
Quote
4.0 Gebiet ohne Figur, löst aber eine Funktion aus - feature without figure, but triggers a function
4.1 Kornkreis - crop circle (ZMG+CAR) / corn circle (RGG)
4.2 Jahrmarkt - fair
4.3 Basar - bazaar
----------------------------------------------------

That means follows for the wagon:
the wagon can't drive "through" the bazaar, catapult fair, or corn circles, because that are different "features".
The bazaar, catapult, corn circles are features without a figure on it, but they triggers a function.

Telephone call with HiG - Georg Wild - 03 05 2013
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 01:30:35 PM by kettlefish »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2013, 01:48:49 PM »
I guess that there are the following situations when a wagon can travel from a completed city or cloister to something other than a road.
2. Between a city and a cloister that exists within it. There is one such tile in Princess & Dragon.
What I don't know is whether a wagon can travel between an abbey and a touching city. (I assume a wagon can travel between an abbey and a road that it 'breaks off'.)

That are the examples when a wagon can drive from a finished city to another feature without a road.

- The cloister that exist within that city
- The abbey finished that city and the wagon can drive to the abbey as a monk in that cloister (on the abbey tile).

Telephone call with HiG - Georg Wild - 03 05 2013

Offline Carcking

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2013, 01:54:22 PM »
So a "feature" is an aspect of a tile (with or without a figure on the aspect) that triggers an action or function. That makes sense, and in that case a wagon cannot drive through a feature to get to another.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2013, 02:02:38 PM »
So a "feature" is an aspect of a tile (with or without a figure on the aspect) that triggers an action or function. That makes sense, and in that case a wagon cannot drive through a feature to get to another.

Yes,
after scoring the finished road the wagon goes back to the players supply.

Offline obervet

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2013, 09:04:26 AM »
The other thing is, as I already asked in the old forum, that you can drive from city to another city only on one particular tile, that one from footnote 37 (in current 6.2 edition of CAR).

I think this is a point that needs an official clarification. Since the tile in question is from Inns & Cathedrals, it was obviously in print and available at the time of the creation of the wagon and the initial clarification that "Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles)." I'm not against the interpretation that the driveways are effectively connectors of the cities, since they're not features (they have no function and you can't put a follower on them). However, it would be useful for the good folks at HiG to weigh in.

Offline obervet

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 09:13:29 AM »
So a "feature" is an aspect of a tile (with or without a figure on the aspect) that triggers an action or function. That makes sense, and in that case a wagon cannot drive through a feature to get to another.

Yes,
after scoring the finished road the wagon goes back to the players supply.

Interestingly, this represents a reversal of a previous clarification, where it was specifically stated that structures such as the fair are not features, and that the wagon should treat the fair just like the small houses at some crossroads. The current rule actually makes a bit more sense, since now the wagon cannot drive through any special thing on a tile, whereas before cloisters/monasteries were more special than bazaars.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Clarification of rules - Wagon
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 09:56:00 PM »
One of the questions was:
Does the wagon drive from the finished city to the city (unfinished and unclimed)?
Here is the clear answer: NO, because beween the two cities is a crossing.
A crossing belongs to a road. And a road is a different feature. Both cities are not directly connected from wall to wall.

(You can find the clear answer in the rules)

The next question was:
Does the wagen can drive from the finished city to this small road?
NO: see all the rules in the BigBoxes 1-3
-  a player may not place followers on these 2 segments
- this crossing separates the road into 2 segments

A wagon is still a follower.

Between the two city segments is only a crossing. A crossing belongs to a road. But in this case you don't have a road segment.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:11:52 PM by kettlefish »


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