Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: danisthirty on May 30, 2013, 03:43:53 AM
-
Hello all.
I have a somewhat fiddly question regarding The Goldminers and what order gold should be removed from the board if two features are completed at the same time. I’ve done my best to describe the potential situation below but please let me know if it isn’t clear.
I place a tile that completes both a road and a city. The road is shared equally with another player whereas the city is entirely mine. Aside from the tile I’ve just placed, there is one other tile which forms part of both the completed road and the completed city and this has a gold bar on it. An adjacent road tile has another gold bar on it.
Once the road and the city have been scored, I can collect the gold from the two features. My question relates to which feature (the road or the city) should have its gold removed first in light of the following:
If I were to take the gold for the city first then I would take two gold bars i.e. one bar for the city followed by one bar the road. The player I shared the road with would have been entitled to a bar but there wouldn’t have been any left to share with him as I took the gold for the city first so there was only one bar left on the road (which I then took).
If I were to take the gold for the road first then I would take one gold bar and the player I share the road with would take the other. When I then come to take the gold for the city there would be none left.
Has anybody ever been in this situation (or one similar to it)? If so, how did you resolve it? I would guess that it’s up to the player to decide so in this case I’d take the gold from the city followed by the road in order to get both bits. I wasn’t sure if there was any kind of recommended ruling on this though so wanted to check with anyone else who may have been here before.
Thanks!
-
According to the CAR:
"When more than one player has the majority in a finished structure when gold is to be claimed, or when several structures with a claim to gold are completed at the same time, the gold pieces are distributed among those claiming players. Distribution proceeds clockwise, starting with the active player, until all of the corresponding gold pieces have been awarded."
My interpretation is that you would score the city first and then the road, as the scoring for the city doesn't need majority established. If there was a gold piece remaining for the road, then the distribution starts with the active player, but as the gold piece has already been distributed it doesn't matter.
My vote would be that the active player should get all the gold pieces in your scenario.
-
Thanks for the response BT.
I've read the CAR quite carefully several times and am familiar with the part you mentioned, but don't quite see that it addresses this question directly. I'm inclined to agree with you though that it should be left to the player to decide which feature they take the gold from first. But if I was the player sharing the road I might disagree as this would mean that I'm missing out on a gold bar!
-
German rules say:
Ausgehend vom aktiven Spieler nehmen sich alle beteiligten Spieler in
Spielerreihenfolge je ein Goldstück, auf das sie Anrecht haben. Das geht
so lange, bis alle betroffenen Goldstücke genommen wurden.
That is: The active player takes one gold he has the right to take, then next player takes one he has the right to take and so on.
If the first player takes the only gold, both players have the right to take, the first player will get all gold.
-
Interesting question that I had to deal with recently as well. I took a different approach, please let me know what you think. :-)
My attempt at interpreting this rule (as previously quoted from the CAR) is that the first sentence is only used to determine who is eligible. The second sentence is then used to determine the means of distribution. For me the distribution sentence does not specifically state how the number of features a player has determines the number of gold they can take in any one turn. The number of features is only stated in the eligibility sentence, and seemingly only for the purpose of eligibility. Also the distribution sentence only states the order that the players must take and says nothing about the order that the features must have their gold allocated. Nor is the order of completed features addressed in the eligibility sentence, only that a player needs to have a completed feature(s) to be eligible to grab the gold from that completed feature(s).
Does any of that make sense?! I'm hoping that my attempt at trying to be clear hasn't made things worse! :-)
So in the given example the active player gets one gold (taken from either feature), while the second player can only take from the road feature. The smart move by the active player is to take the gold from the road first, leaving the second player with no gold to claim, after which the active player can then take from the city. In any case, in either interpretation, the second player will miss out! :-)
Also note - if the city and road were both completed by a tile that finishes the road at the wall of the city then both players are eligible to take any gold that is then placed on that tile (if it has a "gold" icon on it). In this instance the difference between our two interpretations will result in a different distribution (the active player getting both gold compared to both players getting one gold each). At the moment it's the only situation I can think of when the results would be different! :-)
-
German rules say:
Ausgehend vom aktiven Spieler nehmen sich alle beteiligten Spieler in
Spielerreihenfolge je ein Goldstück, auf das sie Anrecht haben. Das geht
so lange, bis alle betroffenen Goldstücke genommen wurden.
That is: The active player takes one gold he has the right to take, then next player takes one he has the right to take and so on.
If the first player takes the only gold, both players have the right to take, the first player will get all gold.
Here I am carrying on for ages and Fritz manages to say the same thing but much more succinctly! :-)
-
I would say there is technically no sequence in scoring the features. All the completed features are "scored" simultaneously upon completion of the corresponding features, while not losing their individual value (for purposes of the Robber, Messenger, etc.). Otherwise, the order in which the scores are resolved on the scoreboard is irrelevant.
What we know is that players involved in scoring features where gold resides are eligible to collect gold, if it's available. Starting with the current player the opportunity to collect gold passes to the left. If there is no gold left on the feature which granted the player his eligibility, he will collect no gold.
Here are a couple new questions though:
1. If a player scores a castle is he eligible to collect any gold that is on the feature that triggered the castle score, even if not in the vicinity of the castle? Let's say gold exists on a relevant road on the 6th and 7th tiles away from the castle.
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?
-
1. No. The player must have the majority on any of the completed features that the gold resides on.
"When several players tie with the majority in a completed feature with gold bars or several features with gold bars are completed at the same time, the distribution is managed as follows: starting with the active player and continuing in player order, all players who score completed features with gold bars take one gold bar for each feature they score and that has gold bars."
So although this player may have their city completed at the same time as the road, there is nothing for them to collect because no gold resides on their city.
If however the player had a monastery that was completed at the same time as the road, and the gold that lay on the road was also on any of the nine tiles that make up a completed monastery (ie the monastery tile and its eight adjacent tiles) then that player becomes eligible to collect a gold bar for their completed feature after the active player collects their gold first. In this case a smart move by the active player would be to start collecting any gold that lies on the road with the scope of the monastery first and then collect any gold outside it (but still on the completed road). The player with the monastery can collect any gold that falls within its completed area, regardless of whether it's on the completed road or not.
2. All features that are completed by the placement of a tile must now have any gold that resides on them collected.
"When a feature is completed and the tiles of the completed feature have one or more gold bars, these gold bars are distributed."
So a tile that completes a city (regardless of whether that tile has any gold on it or not) means the city can now have any gold that is on it is now collected by the player with the majority on that feature. Any gold in the vicinity, but not actually on the city, cannot be collected.
Phew! How's all that? :-)
-
harvster - are these intended to be answers to the castle questions? ???
-
Carcking,
I think it could be helpful if we have a picture for your examples...
-
Carcking,
I think it could be helpful if we have a picture for your examples...
I'll try this weekend to make the scenarios.
-
Hi Carcking,
I think I have a picture for your 2nd question.
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?
(the just placed tile has a red line around)
The castle scores 4 Points for the first finished feature: the city. In that city was no follower.
The picture: "Burg und Goldmine2":
There is one gold piece at one of the 6 tiles around the castle. It doesn't matter that the feature (that triggered the castle score) is not on the same tile like the gold piece. RED receives this gold piece.
-
Carcking,
And here comes an example perhaps for your 1st question.
(But it is a city - not a road - sorry)
1. If a player scores a castle is he eligible to collect any gold that is on the feature that triggered the castle score, even if not in the vicinity of the castle? Let's say gold exists on a relevant road on the 6th and 7th tiles away from the castle.
(the just placed tile has a red line around)
RED: The castle scores 20 points for the first finished feature: the city.
BLUE: The city scores 20 points.
The picture: "Burg und Goldmine1":
Situation 1: BLUE is the active player who places the tile. BLUE is the first who can take a gold piece. BLUE decided to take first the gold piece from the left side of the blue follower (= right below the castle). Then RED takes the gold piece above right diagonally from the castle. Then BLUE takes the gold piece at the button from the city.
BLUE gets 2 gold pieces and RED gets one gold piece.
Situation 2: RED is the active player who places the tile. RED is the first who can take a gold piece. RED decided to take first the gold piece from the left side of the blue follower (= right below the castle). Then BLUE takes the gold piece at the button from the city. Then RED takes the gold piece above right diagonally from the castle.
BLUE gets 1 gold piece and RED gets 2 gold pieces.
------------------------------------------------------------
The picture: "Burg und Goldmine3":
The two gold pieces are not at the 6 tiles around the castle. RED doesn't receive any gold piece. BLUE receives 2 gold pieces.
-
Hi Carcking,
I think I have a picture for your 2nd question.
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?
(the just placed tile has a red line around)
The castle scores 4 Points for the city.
Yes, exactly. Does Red collect the gold in the vicinity of his castle since it is scoring? I would think yes.
-
Hi Carcking,
I think I have a picture for your 2nd question.
2. If there is gold in the vicinity of his castle is he elegible to collect it when his castle scores, even if they are not on the feature that triggered the castle score?
(the just placed tile has a red line around)
The castle scores 4 Points for the city.
Yes, exactly. Does Red collect the gold in the vicinity of his castle since it is scoring? I would think yes.
I think also yes.
-
Carcking,
And here comes an example perhaps for your 1st question.
(But it is a city - not a road - sorry)
1. If a player scores a castle is he eligible to collect any gold that is on the feature that triggered the castle score, even if not in the vicinity of the castle? Let's say gold exists on a relevant road on the 6th and 7th tiles away from the castle.
(the just placed tile has a red line around)
The castle scores 20 Points for the city.
Hmmm...more like this:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4zx1bpegiabmos/Burg%20und%20Goldmine1.JPG?dl=1)
Is Red eligible to collect either of the gold in the lower right region outside of Blue's city? That is, since the owner of the castle is also scoring the feature (as a function of the castle) does that feature become part of the castle feature for purposes of collecting gold?
The picture from Carcking:
No - RED doesn't collect any of the gold pieces in the lower right region of the city from BLUE. RED receives only the gold piece which is on one of the 6 tiles around the castle. BLUE receives the two gold pieces in the lower right region of that city.
-
Is Red eligible to collect either of the gold in the lower right region outside of Blue's city? That is, since the owner of the castle is also scoring the feature (as a function of the castle) does that feature become part of the castle feature for purposes of collecting gold?
I would say - no. Theese two gold pieces are not on the 6 tiles from the castle.
-
Is Red eligible to collect either of the gold in the lower right region outside of Blue's city? That is, since the owner of the castle is also scoring the feature (as a function of the castle) does that feature become part of the castle feature for purposes of collecting gold?
I would say - no. Theese two gold pieces are not on the 6 tiles from the castle.
It's a question of how the castle mechanic works. Does the castle grant a share of the ownership of the triggering feature to the owner of the castle? Or do the two remain completely independent?
-
It's a question of how the castle mechanic works. Does the castle grant a share of the ownership of the triggering feature to the owner of the castle? Or do the two remain completely independent?
The scoring for the castle has nothing to do with the "ownership" of that feature. The castle gets points only for "how many points is that finished feature worth?". The castle score also for a finished feature that was not occupied by any follower.
(see the picture "Burg und Goldmine2.jpg")
-
It's a question of how the castle mechanic works. Does the castle grant a share of the ownership of the triggering feature to the owner of the castle? Or do the two remain completely independent?
The scoring for the castle has nothing to do with the "ownership" of that feature. The castle gets points only for "how many points is that finished feature worth?". The castle score also for a finished feature that was not occupied by any follower.
(see the picture "Burg und Goldmine2.jpg")
I agree with what you say. It may not be clear though and might be worthy of a mention so everyone is on board with collecting gold relative to castles. :red-meeple:
-
At the Carcassonne-Forum (http://maik63.bplaced.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=886) you can see all pictures.
-
harvster - are these intended to be answers to the castle questions? ???
Yes indeed Carcking. It was rather late at night when I was doing it so I focussed on trying to answer your questions more than anything else.
-
And I've yet to read all the dialogue since (wow - you guys really got stuck into this topic!) and once again it's late where I am! :-)
-
Ah - my apologies Carcking, I misunderstood your use of the word castle thinking you meant to say city! As I don't have the Bridges, Castles and Bazaars expansion (yet!) I was not really in a position to properly comment on your questions!
Having now read up on Castles I agree with kettlefish's assessment, which I suspect was also yours Carckling (even before you asked the question!). With the rules for the Goldmines only concerning itself with tile features and their majority ownership, the assessment of ownership of the city through the castle has to be the way to deal with the situation.
Very neat you two!
But now I have some questions for you both (and anyone else):
Consider the situation where a piece of gold was placed on the first half of the city. Then the Red player :red-meeple: completes it with another half city tile (a town) and turns it into a castle.
(Note: the second gold piece was placed as a second gold on the topmost tile.)
Q1 - In the case of the previous picture (Blue :blue-meeple: completes city), what happens with the gold on the castle?
Q2 - This time what happens if it's the cloister that's completed first (where the cloister has a Green meeple :green-meeple:)?
(Note: the other cloister tiles do not have any gold on them and no other feature was completed by any of the cloister tiles.)
:-)
-
But now I have some questions for you both (and anyone else):
Consider the situation where a piece of gold was placed on the first half of the city. Then the Red player :red-meeple: completes it with another half city tile (a town) and turns it into a castle.
(Note: the second gold piece was placed as a second gold on the topmost tile.)
The gold piece belongs to the whole tile not only to a feature like the half city segment.
havster, could you please tell me which of all the pictures is important for your example, then I am able to design a picture for your questions.
Q1 - In the case of the previous picture (Blue :blue-meeple: completes city), what happens with the gold on the castle?
A gold piece can't be placed on the top of a castle, because the gold piece belongs to a tile (see above).
-
But now I have some questions for you both (and anyone else):
Consider the situation where a piece of gold was placed on the first half of the city. Then the Red player :red-meeple: completes it with another half city tile (a town) and turns it into a castle.
(Note: the second gold piece was placed as a second gold on the topmost tile.)
The gold piece belongs to the whole tile not only to a feature like the half city segment.
Very good point kettlefish.
havster, could you please tell me which of all the pictures is important for your example, then I am able to design a picture for your questions.
Take the picture that you did above, but remove the tile with the red boundary (being the final piece for Blue's city) and also remove the castle, the Red meeple and the top tile of the city/town. Then place a Green meeple on the cloister with a gold bar and the second gold bar on the remaining bottom tile of the half city segment. The cloister would be a tile with an imprint of the gold bar.
The next picture then has the tile that completes the half city segment (as before) on which the Red player is about to place a castle and his Red meeple (a third picture?, like the one on the Castles page in the CAR).
Hopefully these pictures will make it clearer where I'm coming from.
As the Red player cannot score the town due to placing the castle (as the town underneath is then deemed to be incomplete until a feature within its vicinity is completed) then for the same reason the gold on that tile cannot be collected by the Red player.
At least that's the way I see the rules being applied.
Q1 - In the case of the previous picture (Blue :blue-meeple: completes city), what happens with the gold on the castle?
A gold piece can't be placed on the top of a castle, because the gold piece belongs to a tile (see above).
P.S. Had trouble with the quotes finishing in the right places...???
-
Hi harvester,
I think I have now some pictures.
(The just placed tile has the colour from the players :green-meeple: :red-meeple: :blue-meeple:)
In the last picture BLUE finished his city.
BLUE scores for the city 20 points and receives two gold pieces (the two gold pieces under the city).
RED scores for the castle 20 points (the same points like the city - the first feature which is finished).
The question is:
Does RED receives gold pieces - one or two gold pieces (the gold pieces has been placed by GREEN )?
That is a good question...
The picture: "Cloister and Gold1-4":
Yes, RED receives two gold pieces. Each of the gold pieces are at one of the 6 tiles around the castle. It doesn't matter that the feature (that triggered the castle score - here the city from BLUE) is not on the same tile like the gold pieces.
-
Q2 - This time what happens if it's the cloister that's completed first (where the cloister has a Green meeple :green-meeple:)?
(Note: the other cloister tiles do not have any gold on them and no other feature was completed by any of the cloister tiles.)
Here are the next pictures:
(the line around the just placed tile has the colour from the aktive player :red-meeple: :green-meeple:)
The pictures: "Cloister and Gold 4a and 4b":
In this case it doesn't matter which of them is the active player :red-meeple: or :green-meeple:. Because both gold pieces are around the cloister from :green-meeple: and also both gold pieces are around the 6 tiles from the castle which belongs to :red-meeple:.
Each of them get one gold piece.
-
Thanks kettlefish - that's very nice work. You got the all pictures spot on, and for the second question I like how you created the two possible situations depending on who is the active player!
So the questions now are:
Q0 - Is the situation of the Red meeple :red-meeple:, with the castle and gold bar, actually a correct interpretation of the rules?
Q1 - In the case of the first group of pictures (where Blue :blue-meeple: completes city), what happens with the gold on the castle?
Q2 - In the case of the second group of pictures (where the cloister has a Green meeple :green-meeple:), what happens with the gold if:
Q2a - Red :red-meeple: completes the cloister?
Q2b - Green :green-meeple: completes the cloister?
What are you thoughts?
-
Thanks kettlefish - that's very nice work. You got the all pictures spot on, and for the second question I like how you created the two possible situations depending on who is the active player!
with copy and paste. I copied the tiles from the rules pdf and then put the tiles around the cloister, like a real game play... - but I didn't place any other followers or other figures on the tiles, because I like to have an easy situation. I also didn't place more tiles around the playing field, because the other tiles are not important for this "cloister and castle" situation.
Are the examples for the finished cloister correct?
All my thought are in German at the Carcassonne-Forum (http://carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&p=5463#p5463).
-
Here are my thoughts in English (my translation with help from Bing-translator):
Why I find no answer here is as follows:
The gold piece concerns a whole tile.
Rule gold mines:
"This a piece of gold is never assigned to a particular building,
but always applies to all buildings on a tile."
However, the castle is in the middle of 2 tiles. (see below *)
A road and a city comprised of several segments and
the cloister consists of the cloister tile and the 8 adjacent tiles.
The same as at the cloister applies to the castle?
Rules castle - definition of the environment:
The environment tiles are the 2 tiles, on which rests the castle, as well as the 2 tiles right and the 2 tiles left them--so a total of 6 tiles.
* So, the castle is located on 2 tiles, not on a particular tile.
Can the castle ever get a piece of gold?
-
* So, the castle is located on 2 tiles, not on a particular tile.
Can the castle ever get a piece of gold?
I would say the castle earns gold like the cloister. If there are any gold on tiles in its vicinity they are eligible.
-
Kettlefish - ALL your examples are excellent! And also thanks for the reference to the Carcassonne-Forum. I used Google to help me understand what you wrote! :-)
I take a different view to yourself, Carcking and Fritz_Spinne. :-)
Rules castle - definition of the environment:
The environment tiles are the 2 tiles, on which rests the castle, as well as the 2 tiles right and the 2 tiles left them--so a total of 6 tiles.
I read this as only how to score points for the castle. And the castle can only exist because it covers "a town - which consists of only two semi-circular city segments" (CAR p.103). Also, because of the Castle rules the town is considered an incomplete feature until a feature within its vicinity is completed.
However gold bars are awarded according to a different set of rules, those for the Goldmine: "When a feature is finished and there are one or more pieces of gold on the tiles of that structure, these gold pieces are awarded." (CAR p.136). Gold bars are only awarded according to the tile's features and not according to anything else placed over them. And as the Red player has the majority he can claim the gold bar on the tile that the town lies on.
HOWEVER there is a sticking point because the Castle is only considered complete when a feature in its vicinity is completed. If the Green player was the one to complete the cloister then we need to consider the Goldmine rules when more than one feature is completed at the same time.
"When more than one player has the majority in a finished structure when gold is to be claimed, or when several structures with a claim to gold are completed at the same time, the gold pieces are distributed among those claiming players. Distribution proceeds clockwise, starting with the active player, until all of the corresponding gold pieces have been awarded." (CAR p.137) So the Green player goes first and decides to claim the gold on Red's town tile, and Red can't claim anything because that was the only gold he could claim. If Red had completed the cloister he would be the active player and able to claim the gold on his tile but nothing further,
When applying my thoughts to the situation under Q2 where Blue completes their city, both the castle and city are now complete for the purposes of scoring, but Blue can only claim the gold that lie on the tiles that have his features. And Red can only claim the gold on his. Neither of their features overlap for the purposes of determining who gets what gold. And the same holds true if Red was to complete Blue's city.
So to answer kettlefish's question: no, the castle can't get the gold but the underlying town feature certainly can. :-)
Does all this seem ok? What do people think?
Of course, HiG and Klaus-Jürgen Wrede have the final say! :-)
-
It's a question of how the castle mechanic works. Does the castle grant a share of the ownership of the triggering feature to the owner of the castle? Or do the two remain completely independent?
The scoring for the castle has nothing to do with the "ownership" of that feature. The castle gets points only for "how many points is that finished feature worth?". The castle score also for a finished feature that was not occupied by any follower.
(see the picture "Burg und Goldmine2.jpg")
This fits in with what I was just trying to say!
-
I have got an answer from Christof Tisch (graphic artist for HiG - he designs the rules for Carcassonne)
For a finished castle is it possilbe to get the gold pieces from the 6 tiles arround the castle.
Here is the link to the answer from Christof Tisch at the Carcassonne-Forum (http://carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=886&p=5475#p5475)
The answer from Christof (translation by Bing translator - I don't know if the translation makes sense):
In my opinion also a castle can take over and all gold pieces, which are located in the Castle area gold pieces. 6 tiles are the castle environment: the two on which the castle was built both right and left, both of which. From there, the owner of the castle can take pieces of gold.
There are several players that have eligible for gold, gold is distributed round robin one after the other, as it usually is.
I hope that answers your question (s).
I have looked at times just watching the thread. Option 1 is in my opinion the wisest and one that corresponds to the game.
-
Well done on following up with HiG! :-) And the translation seems to be straightforward.
From what he says I would understand that to mean that any gold on the six tiles in vicinity of the castle are available to be taken by the owner of the castle. So the gold lying outside those six tiles and lying on Blue's castle are not available for Red to collect. But any gold that is on an incomplete feature, but within Red's six tiles, are available to be taken by Red.
This is very different to the my thoughts! :-) I suppose Christof Tisch would think them much too narrow an interpretation of the rules. Oh well. It's good to get these things clarified!
By the way kettlefish, how well does my writing translate to German?
-
Well done on following up with HiG! :-) And the translation seems to be straightforward.
From what he says I would understand that to mean that any gold on the six tiles in vicinity of the castle are available to be taken by the owner of the castle. So the gold lying outside those six tiles and lying on Blue's castle are not available for Red to collect. But any gold that is on an incomplete feature, but within Red's six tiles, are available to be taken by Red.
Yes this result is correct. But BLUE has a city and not a castle.
-----------------------------------
This is very different to the my thoughts! :-) I suppose Christof Tisch would think them much too narrow an interpretation of the rules. Oh well. It's good to get these things clarified!
By the way kettlefish, how well does my writing translate to German?
When I looked at all the rules from the Goldmines and also to the rules from the Castle I decided to ask HiG, because I found more than one (3 or 4) possible results. So I can't find an answer.
Now we have an official answer.
We German learn English at school. So I don't need to translate English to German. But it is easier for me to think in English and then to write a comment in English (my grammar - that is hopeless) than to translate a text from someone else from German to English.
-
obervet03,
should I post all the answers for the pictures in the same posts (modify each post) where the pictures are?
-
obervet03,
should I post all the answers for the pictures in the same posts (modify each post) where the pictures are?
Since there were a lot of ideas flying around there for a little while, it might make it clearer to add the correct answers to the posts with the pictures.
-
The new version of the S-CAR will include a footnote explaining the claiming of gold pieces by castle owners and a footnote clarifying the sequential claiming of gold pieces by multiple players (including the possibility of a player missing out on a piece that originally could have been his).
-
I have finished the modifys in each post where the pictures are included.
Here are now the links:
The answers are in GREEN.
Answer to the picture "Burg und Goldmine2" (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.msg2148#msg2148)
Answer to the picture "Burg und Goldmine1" (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.msg2149#msg2149)
Answer to the picture "Burg und Goldmine3" (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.msg2149#msg2149)
Answer to the picture from Carcking (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.msg2152#msg2152)
Answer to the picture "Cloister and Gold 1-4" (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.msg2166#msg2166)
Answer to the pictures "Cloister and Gold 4a and 4b" (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=279.msg2168#msg2168)