Author Topic: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015  (Read 69018 times)

Offline Decar

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2015, 07:40:29 AM »
Quote
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQYmlNdHFMU2JGNms/view Here are the german rules. It states "6 Doppel-Landschaftplättchen". Later simply called "Burgplättchen".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87HIKt_PkmQSTUtM2hzakNDNmc/view In english it's "double-sized Landscape Tiles". Later called "Castle tile".
They're called double (sized) landscape tiles. Never are they called double tiles. There is no mention of 6 tiles consisting of 2 tiles. Just 6 bigger tiles.

The English version of the rules was translated by wamboyil a member of this forum.  He translated Doppel as double-sized.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2015, 07:43:42 AM »
you are all very nice - I still make this clarification - now I put into my postings the pictures. But that needs time. So I have not finished all example pictures for all the questions.

But if the German castle tile would be like as 2 tiles - there will be enormous problems.
One example is the dragon or the flier, tower and so on.


Offline jungleboy

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2015, 07:56:26 AM »
If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).

Yes, you're right. I was thinking about this as I wrote it but I couldn't express it the way you did.

Having thought about it and read the other responses, I agree with Dan that the two-tile solution seems the most intuitive to me. In that case, if you claim a German Castle, you'd have to choose which side of the castle to claim for purposes of tower, dragon etc.

Edit: Removed something in a sentence above; I'm now clarifying that Dan prefers two tiles but benbever prefers one.

But if the German castle tile would be like as 2 tiles - there will be enormous problems.
One example is the dragon or the flier, tower and so on.

But as benbever said in the part I quoted above, these same problems also exist with the one-tile solution. It just depends on your point of view.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 08:26:15 AM by jungleboy »

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2015, 08:01:56 AM »
If you consider the german castle two tiles played at once, there'd be the same problems, they would all just be resolved differently. More intuitive/easier to some people. And more difficult/unintuitive to other people, who think of the one double tile as one tile (which it physically is).

Yes, you're right. I was thinking about this as I wrote it but I couldn't express it the way you did.

Having thought about it and read the other responses, I agree with you and Dan that the two-tile solution seems the most intuitive to me. In that case, if you claim a German Castle, you'd have to choose which side of the castle to claim for purposes of tower, dragon etc.

For the sake of consistency, you could always follow the rules set out for the original castles from "Bridges, Castles & Bazaars" where the castle is claimed by a meeple which isn't technically on either tile and as such can't be eaten by the dragon?

Offline benbever

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2015, 08:07:30 AM »
I gave the "counts as 2 tiles" option some thoughts and the main problem(s) seem to be:

If you place a follower on the caste, with the "counts as 2 tiles" option, would it be on the left side, the right side, or "in the middle"? What if the dragon comes? What if the tower wants to take that follower?

Some other issues with the german castles tiles:

If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?

With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?

It would also make problems with windroses.

Personally I'm still more inclined to follow the 1 tile rule. It fits the castles theme better, and I don't like putting my follower on the left or right side, or in the unreachable-by-the-dragon middle. People who don't like it as 1 tile can just play with a "counts as 2 tiles" house rule without any real problems as far as I can see.

@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.

@ Kettlefish, your diagrams are very illustrative and helpful.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 08:17:29 AM by benbever »

Offline Decar

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2015, 08:13:18 AM »
Just like I said before.  Double as in 2.

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2015, 08:20:50 AM »
It's only as complicated as you choose to make it...

If you place a follower on the caste, with the "counts as 2 tiles" option, would it be on the left side, the right side, or "in the middle"? What if the dragon comes? What if the tower wants to take that follower?

In the middle. Same as with previous Castles. See existing rules for Castles and Dragon/ Tower interaction for further clarification.

If you make a road from the left half to the right of the castle tile -that would take at least two road tiles-, would that score 3 or 4 points?

4 points. Same as with school.

With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?

Yes. Why shouldn't it?

It would also make problems with windroses.

Such as?

Personally I'm still more inclined to follow the 1 tile rule. It fits the castles theme better, and I don't like putting my follower on the left or right side, or in the unreachable-by-the-dragon middle. People who don't like it as 1 tile can just play with a "counts as 2 tiles" house rule without any real problems as far as I can see.

I disagree with this, but recognise that this is just a personal preference. But how about the "counts as 2 tiles" rule be the official one as this is more consistent, logical and makes sense, others who prefer to treat it as 1 tile can house rule it as they wish?

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2015, 08:23:59 AM »
@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.

Just like I said before.  Double as in 2.

Guys, whether it's described as double or not doesn't matter. We are thinking more about the interaction between the German Castles and various other elements here in this thread than anyone else did before naming the tiles.

HiG could easily change their mind on whether the German Castles are one or two tiles based on the feedback they get from kettlefish - the name certainly wouldn't impede this, nor does the name imply that they had already considered all of these issues and ruled on them, which they obviously haven't done based on the barn example kettlefish gave upthread.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 08:27:28 AM by jungleboy »

Offline danisthirty

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2015, 08:30:55 AM »
@Decar, Doppel literally means double.
In The German rules they're (literally translated) called "6 double-landscape tiles" and "castle tiles". They're never called "doppel" (double) just double-landscape (double the landscape on one tile). It's never implied it's 2 tiles or should count as 2, rather the opposite.

Just like I said before.  Double as in 2.

Guys, whether it's described as double or not doesn't matter. We are thinking more about the interaction between the German Castles and various other elements here in this thread than anyone else did before naming the tiles.

Again, I agree (starting to make a habit of this)! O:-) However, my argument is that whether you treat it as 1 or 2 tiles is critical to how the interactions between GCs and other expansions are handled. Although it sounds as though a decision has already been made, I earnestly believe that it is the wrong one and in the interests of what I consider to be a very cool expansion I still believe it's worth arguing the point if there's any chance that this could be reconsidered.

Offline jungleboy

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2015, 08:37:47 AM »
However, my argument is that whether you treat it as 1 or 2 tiles is critical to how the interactions between GCs and other expansions are handled.

Completely agree (this is getting quite boring, isn't it?). But I don't think the original name description is really relevant to the discussion.

Offline benbever

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2015, 08:45:48 AM »
4 points. Same as with school.
School is 2 tiles. This is 1. With the answers in the first post in this topic it'd count for 3 points, with the "2 tiles rule" it'd count for 4 points.

Quote
With the Goldmines -place goldbars on orthogonal or diagonal tiles- can the castle receive two?
Yes. Why shouldn't it?
Aother example of consequence of 1 tile or counts as 2 tiles rule. If 1 tile it would receive 1 gold.

Quote
I disagree with this, but recognise that this is just a personal preference. But how about the "counts as 2 tiles" rule be the official one as this is more consistent, logical and makes sense, others who prefer to treat it as 1 tile can house rule it as they wish?
I don't think treating 1 tile as 2 is more logical or consistent. But I'd be fine with it. I thought the answers from HiG were (semi)official (or the next best thing) hence why I called the other option "house rule". If it was the other way around I'd call that the potential "house rule". Since neither seem to be offical yet they're all house rules anyway.
Personally I like the "it's 1 tile" rule because it adds something new, and dynamic, that has a bit more influence than just a 33% bigger cloister that looks pretty. Same reason why I like the german/dutch kloosters (a lot but not too much game influence) but not windroses (does almost nothing).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 08:58:44 AM by benbever »

Offline Decar

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2015, 08:50:23 AM »
Quote
Quote
It would also make problems with windroses.
Such as?
If it's counted as 2 tiles, one of the tiles (half of the castle) might be or not be in the right north/south zone.


Could you expand on this.  I think this would work like the flyers and the Tower, when travelling lengthways it is considerd 1 tile.  But if you are travelling widthways you consider it 2 tiles, so you can't hop across, unless you're a dragon.  But perhaps i missed something...it's getting late for my brain :(

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2015, 09:00:28 AM »
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...
---------------------------------------
For me it is easy - the German castle is one landscape tile - the dragon has only one move / step left - the 6th one - he can eat all meeple on that tile = 5 meeple.

Offline benbever

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2015, 09:03:01 AM »
Could you expand on this.  I think this would work like the flyers and the Tower, when travelling lengthways it is considerd 1 tile.  But if you are travelling widthways you consider it 2 tiles, so you can't hop across, unless you're a dragon.
You're right. I deleted this from my list of other examples that might give problems or resolve differently with the 1 tile rule or the 2 tiles rule. It would work like the tower and flyers with strict horizontal/vertical rows.

Offline Decar

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Re: Clarification of rules - with HiG - 08 10 2015
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2015, 09:10:29 AM »
So I have a question to you all - if you don't like that the dragon can eat all these meeple on the German castle tile - how many meeple can he eat?
You have the opinion the German castle tile is like 2 tiles...
And in this example he has only one step to go - the 6th one...
---------------------------------------
For me it is easy - the German castle is one landscape tile - the dragon has only one move / step left - the 6th one - he can eat all meeple on that tile = 5 meeple.

Awesome picture Kettlefish!

This is how I see it (as a 2-tiler).  The dragon could move once North and eat the yellow meeple.  The dragon could take a second move, WEST and eat 3 meeple.  Some of us think it's thematically sound to keep the meeple in the Castle safe.  It's an awfully big castle they are hiding in. 

However If the meeple in the castle must be eaten I can see it:
i) Eating the Meeple when it goes NORTH because the Dragon can eat things in the castle.
ii) Only eating the meeple if it goes from Right to Left; because it moved across the castle....and attacked it.


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