Scoring quiz with roads

[Meepledrone]

For the sake of the core feature scoring of the road, should we consider the only 2 road segments on the GC tile and the other 9 tiles? Or should we consider the 15 road segments? 

[Windekind]

Why not the 15 road segment? It's simplyphite the game.

[Vital Pluymers]

Hi all,

I was just cross-checking the wording using C1 I&C as a well established reference (the scoring of roads with Inns) and I found this:

===
German rules (HiG)

Liegen eine oder mehrere Wirtshaus karten in einer fertigen Straße, so erhält der Wege lagerer 2 Punkte pro Straßenabschnitt (Anzahl der Karten).

English rules (RGG)

If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player.

English rules (ZMG)

If there is at least one inn on a completed road, a thief that is present on that road will score 2 points (instead of 1) per road section (number of tiles).
===

Therefore, for I&C road segments = road tiles (they are equivalent) but for German Cathedrals road segments >= road tiles (there are more road segments than road tiles) when a road starts and ends at a German Cathedral tile.

What do you make of all of this?

I'm starting to think that HiG road tile and road segment are equivalent all the time but the used the same term to refer to the road stretches on a German Cathedral. Otherwise a tile like this one from I&C would contain two road segments and they would have to be counted twice in case both road segments were connected to a road loop connected to a German Cathedral:

At the time when the base game and the first expansion were released, there was no need to distinguish between roads, road tiles and road segments. There was only one rule at the time, one point per tile, two points with an inn. There was no road segment counting yet.
Only when the German Cathedrals were released, road segment differentiation was introduced for the German Cathedral tile only.

Despite your well appreciated effort to look up the exact phrasing, for me it is clear that the wording used before the release of the German Cathedrales is irrelevant.

I think we should stick to the updated scoring rules which are now in WICA 


That Tunnel example is really something though. The Tunnel is one of the very few expansions I don't own yet...
In WICA, footnote 9 states: It would seem logical that if the “entrance” and “exit” of a tunnel are on the same tile, they should only count as a single point for scoring, just as two segments of a city on a single tile only count as 1 tile for scoring purposes.
Is that not part of the official rules?

[Vital Pluymers]

Hi  Vital Pluymers

You said Road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.

I think watchtower is not .(showing at least one road)

Hi yezhenhan, why do you think that?
The Watchtowers are scoring one point per tile showing at least one road, so tile counting imho...

[Meepledrone]

Why not the 15 road segment? It's simplyphite the game.

Hi Windekind,

This would be awesome, but I think would be more complicated if you have two completely different methods to score roads:
1) Roads without German Cathedrals scored by road tiles.
2) Roads with German Cathedrals scored by road segments that may affect the way roads are tallied altogether as you saw in my example above.

This said, I think road scoring should provide an integrated way to handle the traditional roads and the particular case introduced by German Cathedrals without a much fuzz. Bearing this in mind, roads should be scored as usual (per tiles) and make only an exception with German Cathedral tiles and their road segments when more than one is connected to the same road. This won't be an everyday case, I think, but we have to be prepared for it.

IMHO the case above should consider 9 tiles + 2 road segments for the German Cathedral when calculating the core feature scoring. Any other possible tile-based bonuses on top, the Mage and the Markets of Leipzig, would consider 10 tiles though.

My interpretation of the scoring of roads with German Cathedrals is the following:
* Road core feature scoring: based in tiles count (for non-German Cathedral tiles) + road segments (for German Cathedral tiles)
* Based tile-based bonuses (Mage and Markets of Leipzig for roads): use regular tile count

Although this could be easily solved assuming the German Cathedral tile is counted as many times as connected road segments to the same road network, I'm avoiding this approach in order to avoid my initial idea of "altered tile count" that would affect the tally of tile-based bonuses.

If anyone disagrees, please step forward with their thoughts and suggestions. I find this discussion very interesting and productive. Thanks again everyone.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

Cheers!

[Meepledrone]

Hi all,

I was just cross-checking the wording using C1 I&C as a well established reference (the scoring of roads with Inns) and I found this:

===
German rules (HiG)

Liegen eine oder mehrere Wirtshaus karten in einer fertigen Straße, so erhält der Wege lagerer 2 Punkte pro Straßenabschnitt (Anzahl der Karten).

English rules (RGG)

If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player.

English rules (ZMG)

If there is at least one inn on a completed road, a thief that is present on that road will score 2 points (instead of 1) per road section (number of tiles).
===

Therefore, for I&C road segments = road tiles (they are equivalent) but for German Cathedrals road segments >= road tiles (there are more road segments than road tiles) when a road starts and ends at a German Cathedral tile.

What do you make of all of this?

I'm starting to think that HiG road tile and road segment are equivalent all the time but the used the same term to refer to the road stretches on a German Cathedral. Otherwise a tile like this one from I&C would contain two road segments and they would have to be counted twice in case both road segments were connected to a road loop connected to a German Cathedral:

At the time when the base game and the first expansion were released, there was no need to distinguish between roads, road tiles and road segments. There was only one rule at the time, one point per tile, two points with an inn. There was no road segment counting yet.
Only when the German Cathedrals were released, road segment differentiation was introduced for the German Cathedral tile only.

Hi Vital Pluymers!

I agree 100%. I just wanted to put on the table how the wording in the rules is twisted and bent and simple things become ambiguous once the words are stretched to cover new concepts. This is not the first time that this happens.

Despite your well appreciated effort to look up the exact phrasing, for me it is clear that the wording used before the release of the German Cathedrales is irrelevant.

I never lose faith. It is a very frustrating process when you are trying to find a solid foundation to consistently build everything else on top.

I think we should stick to the updated scoring rules which are now in WICA 

I am doing the following:
* Road core feature scoring: based on tile count (for non-German Cathedral tiles) + road segments (for German Cathedral tiles)
* Based tile-based bonuses (Mage and Markets of Leipzig for roads): use regular tile count

Although this could be easily solved assuming the German Cathedral tile is counted twice, I'm avoiding that in order to avoid my initial idea of "altered tile count" that would affect the tally of tile-based bonuses.

If anyone disagrees, please step forward with their thoughts and suggestions. I find this discussion very interesting and productive. Thanks again everyone.

That Tunnel example is really something though. The Tunnel is one of the very few expansions I don't own yet...
In WICA, footnote 9 states: It would seem logical that if the “entrance” and “exit” of a tunnel are on the same tile, they should only count as a single point for scoring, just as two segments of a city on a single tile only count as 1 tile for scoring purposes.
Is that not part of the official rules?

The WICA page for The Tunnels, directly based on the CAR page, reflects the reviewed version of the original rules from 2009. The example on the page was the one described in text only in the rules. Footnote #9 clarification comes from the CAR and it is clarification by the CAR editor based on the assumption that road with tunnels are scored based on tile count. He uses the analogy with city tiles as a foundation for his inference. (Again the search for a solid foundation to build inferences on top.) 

In my example with tunnels above, you can see instances of tunnel entries marked with the same color on the same tile and on different ones to test this very same issue.

Cheers!

[Vital Pluymers]

Why not the 15 road segment? It's simplyphite the game.

IMHO the case above should consider 9 tiles + 2 road segments for the German Cathedral when calculating the core feature scoring. Any other possible tile-based bonuses on top, the Mage and the Markets of Leipzig, would consider 10 tiles though.

I totally agree. Otherwise, it will be a mess 

[yezhenhan]

Hi Vital Pluymers,

Sorry for misunderstand your words because my poor english reading.I have removed my reply 40.

Today I read the reply from you and Meepledrone,I know both you change your mind . I do not know the reason.
I agree with the opinion from reply 31,33,35.
I disagree with the opinion from reply 37,38.
Offical rule is important,but if it is not clearly,please do not pay too much attention to the words.

If the rule is not clear,what we can do?
1, pay too much attention to the words.
2,choose the better rule for play happy.   
I choose 2,because when we focus the words ,this expansion rule designer maybe think we misunderstand his opinion.

why we play the game?
1,study rule.
2,play fun.
I choose 2.

Which rule is better?
Three standard:easy,reasonable,fun.
1,easy
A,easy for remember the rule,for the sake of consistency,if it is not consistent,it is hard to remember.
B,easy for count,because it is not a count game.

2,reasonable
We should balance the score power from different role and expansion. Not too strong,not too weak.

3,fun，count wrong is not interesting. The new player will confused.

The first question.
1,count road separately on all road tile to Cathedrals?
or 2,only on Cathedrals tile?
I choose 2,because it is easy for count and not too much powerful with other expansion(such as tunnel ,labyrinths)
If you choose 1,the new player will do not want play the game with you because you know more rule than him.Most people will count wrong and debate.
We play game for fun not for count.

The second question.
1,Mage and leipzig count tile on Cathedrals tile?
Or 2,count road separately on Cathedrals tile?
I choose 2,because it is easy for remember and count.

If you tell the new player ,road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.The new player need remember too much rule information.He will ask you what is core scoring?what is bonus score?you must explain more and more,he need you find the proof in the offical rule book,you can not find it ,he may disagree with you.he will do not want play the game with you and  ask you more question.

Cathedrals road count is special rule,however if the special rule apply some expansions but not some other expansions,the rule is too much special and hard remember.you have no proof to support this new special rule by you.

when you count the road number first time ,it is unchange and you remenber the number,you do not need to count again for Mage and leipzig. Multiplication is easy for count the score.(6*2+6+6=6*4)


Mage and witch should consistent.when you count road separately on Cathedrals tile for witch modify ,why mage not?
why witch is different from mage?It is not reasonable.


watchtower is special，the rule is at least one road ,so though it has two roads on Cathedrals tile,it is 1 point.

It is up to you choose the better rule,if the first question you choose 1,second question you choose 1,it is terrible.the game become a count game.I believe more new player want play with me.

Time is very important thing in our life,spend time for game fun,do not waste too much time for count and study special rule.

[benbever]

At the time when the base game and the first expansion were released, there was no need to distinguish between roads, road tiles and road segments. There was only one rule at the time, one point per tile, two points with an inn. There was no road segment counting yet.
Only when the German Cathedrals were released, road segment differentiation was introduced for the German Cathedral tile only.

Despite your well appreciated effort to look up the exact phrasing, for me it is clear that the wording used before the release of the German Cathedrales is irrelevant.

I agree with this. From 2000 to 2016 the roads in Carcassonne were counted in tiles (worth 1 or 2 points), because of the rule in the base game that a road segment on a tile that was already counted (because of another road segments on that tile) isn't counted. There were no exceptions, so no reason to differentiate between roads, road segments, road tiles etc.

In 2016 the German Cathedrals introduced tiles where the road count could be higher than 1 on 1 tile. 2 with a loop. Even 3 or 4 are possible.

Even though the wording of the rules of German Cathedrals doesn't make it clear if only the Cathedral tile is affected, or the entire road connected to the cathedral, I think the first option is much preferably (and probably intended).
Simply because it's much easier. The road can be counted with the normal rules, and only the Cathedral tile is affected by the road-segments-instead-of-road-tiles counting.
(Otherwise, after the tunnels quiz, next up will be two labyrinth tiles and a couple of roundabouts connecting German Cathedrals to German Castles and whatnot..)

why we play the game?
1,study rule.
2,play fun.
I choose 2.

I think most people, me included, play for fun. But studying the rules can also be fun.

1,count road separately only on Cathedrals tile?
or 2,all road tile to Cathedrals?
I choose 1,because it is easy for count and not too much powerful with other expansion(such as tunnel ,labyrinths)
If you choose 2,the new player will do not want play the game with you because you know more rule than him.most people will count wrong and debate.
We play game for fun not for count.

I agree with this. It is easier counting. And easier to explain. And better for balance (best not let the new and small expansion influence too much other tiles) (the score bonus is meant for the Cathedral anyway I think, not to boost tunnels, double corners and T-sections.)

1,Mage and leipzig count tile on Cathedrals tile?
Or2,count road separately on Cathedrals tile?
I choose 2,because it is easy for remember and count.
If you tell the new player ,Road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.The new player need remember too much rule information.He will ask you what is core scoring?what is bonus score?you must explain more and more,he need you find the proof in the offical rule book,you can not find it ,he may disagree with you.he will do not want play the game with you and always ask you more question.
when you count the road number first time ,it is unchange,you do not need to count again for Mage and leipzig.

I don't agree. The Mage has very simple rules. +1 point per tile in the scored feature. The Markets of Leipzig is equally simple.
I think it will actually be more difficult to explain that there are 5 tiles because there are two roads connected on the Cathedral tile, while there are actually and literally only 4 tiles. If I was scoring for myself and a new player would ask "why do you get 5 points for 5 tiles when there are 4 tiles" I would not have a good answer.
I think counting tiles for Mage and Markets of Leipzig is actually the easier way.

Mage and witch should consistent.when you count road separately on Cathedrals tile for witch modify ,why mage not? why witch is different from mage?It is not reasonable.

Because they have very different rules. One is a multiplier (x 0.5) that affeqcts the score, before bonus points. And the other simply adds points (where the timing doesn't matter since the Witch can't be involved) based on the number of tiles.

[yezhenhan]

Hi benbever,

You said :
I don't agree. The Mage has very simple rules. +1 point per tile in the scored feature. The Markets of Leipzig is equally simple.
I think it will actually be more difficult to explain that there are 5 tiles because there are two roads connected on the Cathedral tile, while there are actually and literally only 4 tiles. If I was scoring for myself and a new player would ask "why do you get 5 points for 5 tiles when there are 4 tiles" I would not have a good answer.



Let me explain to you.

1，pay attention to the words(I dont like this way to support my opinion,but maybe only this way can convince geek player)
Inn and cathedrals     2 point per tile=+1point per tile   when:score completed roads
Mage and witch        +1 point per tile                              when:scoring a feature
Market of Leipzig      +1 point per tile                             when:scoring during the game
Cathedrals in Germany                                                   when: special rule when scoring a road
Rule book write the time clearly,note the time is same.The rule is not say when scoring a road but before bonus.
Road score,mage modify， leipzig score，are happen at same time in one feature.
Time order is different with score order.Little building after mage is score order not time order.

2,for play fun with others
A new player ask you  "why do you get 5 points for 5 tiles when there are 4 tiles"
I think If you can explain it When you play with Inn.you also can explain it when you play with mage.
(I will explain to him because you play with Germany cathedrals, 4 tile= 5 tile for other expansion)
A new player ask you “why do you get 5 points for 4 tile with inn and witch,but 4 points with mage and leipzig?
Would you tell me how to explain? Can you explain it in one sentence.
In fact you spent many words to convince Meepledrone and Vital Pluymers.

you said :
I think counting tiles for Mage and Markets of Leipzig is actually the easier way.

Let me explain to you.
It is not the easier way ,because you need count again.Count once for me is easier than count twice for you.

[benbever]

Can you explain it in one sentence.

Cathedral exception count road, Mage count tile

[Meepledrone]

Can you explain it in one sentence.

Cathedral exception count road, Mage count tile

Cathedral exception: count road segments on Cathedral tile alone. All other road tiles are counted the same.

Mage and Markets of Leipzig count road tiles only.

We are avoiding two things here:
1. Extending the counting of road segments to other tiles when German Cathedrals are involved.
2. Converting the road segment count on German Cathedral tiles into a road tile count alteration so it affects bonus such as Mage or Markets of Leipzig

So German Cathedrals alone work in a different way when computing the road core feature scoring (German Cathedral road segments on the + Inns, when present). All other bonuses and road-related expansions still would work the same (those based on regular tile counting)

[Vital Pluymers]

Hi yezhenhan,
Playing a game should bring a lot of fun. But for many players, including me, playing according to the correct rules brings a lot of fun.
In fact, I can get really frustrated when I am learning or playing a new game for which the rules are unclearly written.
Therefore I think it is important that on this forum we try to find out how the original rules were intended so that we can play the game correctly.

The scoring of the Mage is very clear, one point per tile. Counting twice four or five tiles should not be such a big problem.
Furthermore, when the Mage is placed in a city with pennants, you also have to count twice or count the pennants separately.
Rules of the Waintwrights quarter are clear now too (thanks to the analysis of benbever).

German Cathedral exception only applies to the core scoring of the road, without or with an inn.
Any new player will understand that very easily.

[yezhenhan]

Hi benbever,

If your answer is Cathedral exception count road, Mage count tile
He will continue to ask you more questions:inn is also count tile,what different between inn and mage?
Please answer the second question by your second sentence.

Every expansion has its key special rule. The key special rule apply all other expansions.
what is key special?
Key special rule with Inn is finish+1, unfinished 0.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Key special rule with Leipzig is abandon road point for go to the market.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Key special rule with mage is move a role for add point,move another role for minus point.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Key special rule with Cathedrals  is add tile number for score,no other expansion has the special rule.so the key specal rule apply all other expansions.If you think the key special rule apply some expansion,not apply others ,you should provide proof.If the rule designer know your opinion ,maybe he will also ask you for the reason.

[Meepledrone]

Hi yezhenhan,

For the time being there is no proof beyond the original rules that covers the impact on the base game, I&C and P&D. According to this limited scope of the rules, this collaborative analysis is trying to keep the effect of German Cathedrals contained for the interactions defined and, at the same time, avoid the indefinition of the rules have unexpected consequences when interacting with other expansions.

If HiG decides to provide any official clarifications on these interactions would be an extension of the current rules, if any. If we agree to adopt as general the tile count increment (as your suggest) or the road  segment count (as a general rule for tunnels or for certain road tiles as a general extension of the GC with no other support) when German Cathedrals are involved, it is more likely these rules are declared void by HiG for overreaching their original intent. IMHO it is better in this case to fall short and stay close to what we currently know.

Cheers!

PS: I play for fun too and I also love to understand the rules clearly. The latter is the reason I got involved in WICA  )