Author Topic: Scoring quiz with roads  (Read 15896 times)

Offline yezhenhan

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2019, 03:43:44 PM »
My family rule is easy remember and consistent with other expansion(including fans expansion).I have three reasons.
1,Markets of Leipzig should be consistent with itself and the bonus should be applied the same to all four quarters.(Meepledrone mentioned)
2,Leipzig is different from Inn and German Cathedral.
Leipzig only count road tile(the picture is road+1),not including wells.However Inn and German Cathedral affect the wells.
3,Witch can only half feature  core score,not the bonus(including feature bonus and follower bonus).If witch half the leipzig follower bonus,she is too strong.we should balance different expansion.

answer the quiz from benbever

1. Road: 5 (segment) + 5 (Inn) + 5 (German Cathedral)  +5 (Mage) +2 points(Little Houses)= 22points     (castle get 22 points also)

2. Follower bonus:5 points(Markets of Leipzig)castle can not get the 5 points

So, I would score it 27 points.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 01:57:31 AM by yezhenhan »

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2019, 12:00:28 AM »
I agree with yezhenhan on the scoring of the Mage. For the sake of consistency, once a German Cathedral is ending a road two or more times, the German Cathedral tile should be counted two or more times for all other scoring mechanisms, including the Mage and the Markets of Leipzig.

So 27 points for me as well.

Offline benbever

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2019, 12:44:08 AM »
The tile is counted twice for Mage, and counted twice for the Markets of Leipzig bonus score, but only once for the Little Building? From the rules: "each of the new buildings located on a landscape tile of the structure scores 1 additional point"

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2019, 01:32:37 AM »
I agree. German Cathedrals present a special case for counting road tiles as their road segments are counted individually (this makes the tile to be counted multiple times in road loops) but Little Buildings behave as usual.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline benbever

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2019, 02:19:20 AM »
Cathedrals in Germany
"When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile"
"Special rule when scoring a road; for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately"

I was thinking these rules apply to the "core road scoring". And that the "3 points per tile" and the "you count and score each section of the road seperately" are part of the German Catherdrals modifier.

So 5 tiles x 3 points = 15 points.

After that the Mage points are added, after that the Markets of Leipzig bonus points for scoring the road, and after that the Little Buildings bonus points.

Mage and Witch
"Whenever you complete a feature occupied by a magic figure, they modify the score: The mage is worth 1 point per tile in the scored feature."

The scored feature consists of 5 road segments, 4 tiles and 15 points.
The Mage counts tiles, not road segments, so via the Mage 4 points are added.

Markets of Leipzig
"Wainwrights quarter: Each road that is scored with your majority, you get 1 bonus point for each tile"

4 tiles, so 4 bonus points gained via Wainwrights quarter.

Little Buildings
"Each of the new buildings located on a landscape tile of the structure or the farm scores 1 additional point"

Two Little buildings 1 point each, so 2 x +1.
The German Cathedral tile does not count twice. The double counting was only for road segments in the road score.

15 +4 +4 +1 +1 = 25 points.



Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2019, 03:52:41 AM »
Cathedrals in Germany
"When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile"
"Special rule when scoring a road; for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately"

I was thinking these rules apply to the "core road scoring". And that the "3 points per tile" and the "you count and score each section of the road seperately" are part of the German Catherdrals modifier.

So 5 tiles x 3 points = 15 points.

After that the Mage points are added, after that the Markets of Leipzig bonus points for scoring the road, and after that the Little Buildings bonus points.

Mage and Witch
"Whenever you complete a feature occupied by a magic figure, they modify the score: The mage is worth 1 point per tile in the scored feature."

The scored feature consists of 5 road segments, 4 tiles and 15 points.
The Mage counts tiles, not road segments, so via the Mage 4 points are added.

Markets of Leipzig
"Wainwrights quarter: Each road that is scored with your majority, you get 1 bonus point for each tile"

4 tiles, so 4 bonus points gained via Wainwrights quarter.

Little Buildings
"Each of the new buildings located on a landscape tile of the structure or the farm scores 1 additional point"

Two Little buildings 1 point each, so 2 x +1.
The German Cathedral tile does not count twice. The double counting was only for road segments in the road score.

15 +4 +4 +1 +1 = 25 points.


Hi there!

IMHO there is a trick here... The rules implicitly convert road segments into tile count, so the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once if participating in a road more than once.

A 4-tile road with a loop back to the Cathedral tile means 5 road segments. However, since the points are applied per tile, the rules assume you have a 5-tile road as a special case. Therefore if the rules modify the tile count for the scoring when a German Cathedral tile is involved more than once, why not keep this altered tile count for all the tile-based bonus calculations, namely Mage and Markets of Leipzig? For me is the simpler solution.

My strict interpretation of the rules would be the following (I think it overdoes it and I don't back it, but here it is):

In the example above the have 5 roads segments in 4 tiles, so the score would be as follows:

1. Core feature scoring = 13 points (decomposing the score feature in "layers")
   - Road basic score: 5 road segments * 1 point = 5 points
   - Inn : 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - German Cathedral: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
2. Bonuses = 10 points
   - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Markets of Leipzig: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Little Buildings: 2 buildings * 1 point = 2 points

Total = 23 points

So, in this case the core feature scoring would be 4 tiles * 3 points + 1 extra point per the additional road segment = 13 points. This would count real tiles, and treat additional road segments separately.

On the other hand, we all know that this is not the spirit of the expansion for example when interacting with Inn & Cathedrals as per the wording of the rules: as a special case, they consider the road segment count as the tile count for this feature.

IMHO this distinction of tile count between core feature and bonuses seems a bit odd. The simpler thing is to use the "altered tile count" in all cases for the sake of consistency, that is, the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once to all effects to compute the scoring when the road loops back to the German Cathedral tile.

What do you think?

Cheers!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 04:07:51 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline benbever

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2019, 05:17:22 AM »
The rules implicitly convert road segments into tile count, so the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once if participating in a road more than once.
The rules say you count and score each section of the road separately. The German Cathedral road tile is "counted twice" *because* the road segments are counted seperately. The rules never mention counting the tile twice. They say you count and score both roads seperately.
NB Wikicarpedia mentions counting the road tile twice in an i.e. addendum, but this is not in my printed rules (English).

A 4-tile road with a loop back to the Cathedral tile means 5 road segments. However, since the points are applied per tile, the rules assume you have a 5-tile road as a special case. Therefore if the rules modify the tile count for the scoring when a German Cathedral tile is involved more than once, why not keep this altered tile count for all the tile-based bonus calculations, namely Mage and Markets of Leipzig? For me is the simpler solution.
Because you count and score roads. Normally with a T-section loop the rules explain that the road on the T-section is not counted twice. With a German Cathedral T-section, the two road segements are both counted. The tile count is always 4. Four tiles staying four tiles is the easier solution for me.

My strict interpretation of the rules would be the following (I think it overdoes it and I don't back it, but here it is):
In the example above the have 5 roads segments in 4 tiles, so the score would be as follows:

1. Core feature scoring = 13 points (decomposing the score feature in "layers")
   - Road basic score: 5 road segments * 1 point = 5 points
   - Inn : 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - German Cathedral: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
2. Bonuses = 10 points
   - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Markets of Leipzig: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Little Buildings: 2 buildings * 1 point = 2 points
Total = 23 points

So, in this case the core feature scoring would be 4 tiles * 3 points + 1 extra point per the additional road segment = 13 points. This would count real tiles, and treat additional road segments separately.

This is in direct contradiction to a scoring example in the printed rules.
The example is a closed loop of 4 tiles with a German Cathedral.
The score is 5 (road segments) x 2 points (because of the German Cathedral) = 10 points.

With an Inn you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.
So according to these rules the score would be:
5 roads x 3 points = 15 points
OR
4 road tiles x 3 points + 2 points from the German Cathedral road segment = 14 points.

The rules are unclear about which of these two is correct.
(but I'm using the first one)

On the other hand, we all know that this is not the spirit of the expansion for example when interacting with Inn & Cathedrals as per the wording of the rules: as a special case, they consider the road segment count as the tile count for this feature.

IMHO this distinction of tile count between core feature and bonuses seems a bit odd. The simpler thing is to use the "altered tile count" in all cases for the sake of consistency, that is, the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once to all effects to compute the scoring when the road loops back to the German Cathedral tile. What do you think?

I think insisting that there are 5 tiles for bonus scoring that is dissociated from the road feature seems odd.
- For Inns it makes some sense to apply the road modifier with the German Cathedrals.
- For Mage it feels odd, it gives +1 per tile in the scored feature, and there are literally only 4 tiles. The Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities that give extra points. Why would it give +1 for an extra road segment that gives extra points??
- For Wainwrights quarters it also feels weird, The Markets of Leipzig give +1 point for each road tile, and there are 4 of them.
- For the Little Building it feels odd to count it twice. But if the tile is counted twice for Mage and Markets of Leipzig, then why not for Little Buildings?

Where did the "tile counting twice" come from? I can't find it in my rules. My English German Cathedrals rules only mention counting roads seperately.

(Every time I type "there are 4 tiles" I think of Captain Jean Luc Picard's "There are four lights!")
Cheers!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2019, 01:37:46 AM »
Hi benver!

Here you are my comments.

The rules implicitly convert road segments into tile count, so the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once if participating in a road more than once.
The rules say you count and score each section of the road separately. The German Cathedral road tile is "counted twice" *because* the road segments are counted seperately. The rules never mention counting the tile twice. They say you count and score both roads seperately.

I've been reviewing the original rules in German and English to find any differences. I also checked the clarifications that HiG provided in 04/2016 to check if anything fell through the cracks too. Here is result:

1. The original German rules by HiG: They only talk about "road segments" (they use the word "Straßenabschnitt") and there is no mention of "tiles" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops.

2. The original English rules by HiG: On the other hand, they use "road tile" (even "tile") preferable over "road segment" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops. Of the 6 occurrences of "road segment" in the German rules, only 1 uses "road segment" explicitly in English. On the other hand, there are 4 mentions of "tile" instead.

Here you are an excerpt of the original rules with some comments. I underlined the expected occurrences of "road segment", that do not match the German Rules most of the time:

===

>> Scoring a closed road

[Rules] When you complete a road leading directly to a cathedral your highwayman gives you 2 points for each tile the road consist of.

[Comment] The English rules used "tile" instead of "road segment".

>> Special rule when scoring a road

[Rules] Differently to the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score both roads separately

[Comment] The English rules omit the word "segment" as the German rules.

>> Scoring a cathedral

[Rules] The cathedral itself will only be scored once all roads leading to it are closed. The archbishop gives you points for all these roads - 1 point for each road tile.

[Comment] The English rules use "road tile" instead of "road segment" as in German.

[Rules] The 3 or 4 road segments on the cathedral tile are counted separately.

[Comment] The English rules use "road segment" the same as in German.

>> Final score

[Rules] At the end of the game all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Highwaymen and archbishops give you one point for each road tile leading to the cathedral.

[Comment] The English rules use "road tile" instead of "road segment" as in German.

>> Special rules in combination with expansions

[Rules] First expansion: For each closed road with an inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile, and 2 points instead of 1 for your archbishop.

[Comment] The English rules use "road tile" instead of "road segment" as in German.

===

So as you can see, the German rules are consistent but the wording of the English ones is somewhat misleading.


3. Clarifications by HiG: Our friends on CarcF got some clarifications from HiG you addressing several topics.

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906

Here is the translation into English:

===

[Q1] According to the cathedral rule, the number of "road segments" is decisive for the evaluation. In the rules of the new Carcassonne edition the word "road segments" ("Straßenabschnitt") cannot be found. The rule for the old edition uses the "road segment" as the designation of the individual road markings on a landscape tile. However, the score is always based on the number of landscape tiles (e.g. 4 points for a circle with 5 road segments on 4 landscape tiles). Are the "road segments" or the participating landscape tiles evaluated now for the "Cathedrals in Germany"?

[A1] The road segments are evaluated.


[Q2] The question arose with the evaluation of branched roads, which are connected somehow also with the cathedral:
"What are "road segments leading to the cathedral?" So are all "road segments" meant that are in any way connected to the cathedral?

[A2] I'm not sure you want to go ahead with this question. Are you wondering about the wells / roundabouts? In any case, this refers to all road segments of the roads that have a road segment on the cathedral tile.
The examples in the forum "Cathedrals in Germany - Riddles: Evaluation" are correct.

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222#p40374

Note: You can find the English version on CarcC as well:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37680#msg37680


[Q3] "For a highwayman as well as for an archbishop you get 1 point each for every road segment leading to the cathedral".
This formulation leads to the conclusion that at the end of the game, a highwayman gets points for every road segment connected to the cathedral, no matter if he "owns" these roads or not.
Is that really the intention, or is it just the unfortunate formulation?

[A3] That is not the intention. What is meant is: A highwayman is evaluated normally, even if a part of his road ends at a cathedral.

Note: So majority applies when scoring roads with German Cathedrals. This is the meaning of normal evaluation here.


[Q4] At the end of the game, unfinished cathedrals are also scored. If an unfinished cathedral has a completed road with an inn (as in the 2nd riddle with the cathedrals, see link below) the archbishop receives 0, 1 or 2 points per road tile / "road segment"?

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222#p40381

Note: You can find the English version on CarcC as well:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37715#msg37715

[A4] This is clearly stated in the rules of the game. The archbishop receives 2 points per road segment.

===

So the conclusion is:
* Roads connected to German Cathedrals are evaluated by their number of road segment not the their number of tiles
* Majority is taken into account for the evaluation
* Inns are taken into consideration
* German Cathedrals are evaluated based on the roads connected to them independently. Additionally:
  - The road segments on the German Cathedral tile are counted independently
  - A road connecting two or more road segments on a German Cathedral tile is evaluated only once
* Other road modifiers such as German Castles benefit road evaluation as usual but are not applied to the German Cathedral evaluation. Officially it takes into account road segments and inns.


NB Wikicarpedia mentions counting the road tile twice in an i.e. addendum, but this is not in my printed rules (English).

This was an addition based on the inference that the scoring of German Cathedrals was more related to tile count that it is really as per the German rules. In terms of scoring is equivalent. The problem comes with the line of thought that German Cathedrals modify the tile count. The German rules show clearly this is not the case although the English rules seem to go in that direction.

A 4-tile road with a loop back to the Cathedral tile means 5 road segments. However, since the points are applied per tile, the rules assume you have a 5-tile road as a special case. Therefore if the rules modify the tile count for the scoring when a German Cathedral tile is involved more than once, why not keep this altered tile count for all the tile-based bonus calculations, namely Mage and Markets of Leipzig? For me is the simpler solution.
Because you count and score roads. Normally with a T-section loop the rules explain that the road on the T-section is not counted twice. With a German Cathedral T-section, the two road segements are both counted. The tile count is always 4. Four tiles staying four tiles is the easier solution for me.

My strict interpretation of the rules would be the following (I think it overdoes it and I don't back it, but here it is):
In the example above the have 5 roads segments in 4 tiles, so the score would be as follows:

1. Core feature scoring = 13 points (decomposing the score feature in "layers")
   - Road basic score: 5 road segments * 1 point = 5 points
   - Inn : 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - German Cathedral: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
2. Bonuses = 10 points
   - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Markets of Leipzig: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Little Buildings: 2 buildings * 1 point = 2 points
Total = 23 points

So, in this case the core feature scoring would be 4 tiles * 3 points + 1 extra point per the additional road segment = 13 points. This would count real tiles, and treat additional road segments separately.

This is in direct contradiction to a scoring example in the printed rules.

My example below is a just a mind experiment to see how far I could tweak the rules to get a weird approach when scoring. Sorry for torturing you with this nonsense.

The example is a closed loop of 4 tiles with a German Cathedral.
The score is 5 (road segments) x 2 points (because of the German Cathedral) = 10 points.

With an Inn you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.
So according to these rules the score would be:
5 roads x 3 points = 15 points
OR
4 road tiles x 3 points + 2 points from the German Cathedral road segment = 14 points.

The rules are unclear about which of these two is correct.
(but I'm using the first one)

The right scoring would be:

5 roads segments x 3 points = 15 points

Check this post with the solution to a riddle by kettlefish accepted as correct by HiG (I included the link to the enunciation above too - the German and English versions)

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37695#msg37695


On the other hand, we all know that this is not the spirit of the expansion for example when interacting with Inn & Cathedrals as per the wording of the rules: as a special case, they consider the road segment count as the tile count for this feature.

IMHO this distinction of tile count between core feature and bonuses seems a bit odd. The simpler thing is to use the "altered tile count" in all cases for the sake of consistency, that is, the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once to all effects to compute the scoring when the road loops back to the German Cathedral tile. What do you think?

I think insisting that there are 5 tiles for bonus scoring that is dissociated from the road feature seems odd.
- For Inns it makes some sense to apply the road modifier with the German Cathedrals.
- For Mage it feels odd, it gives +1 per tile in the scored feature, and there are literally only 4 tiles. The Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities that give extra points. Why would it give +1 for an extra road segment that gives extra points??
- For Wainwrights quarters it also feels weird, The Markets of Leipzig give +1 point for each road tile, and there are 4 of them.
- For the Little Building it feels odd to count it twice. But if the tile is counted twice for Mage and Markets of Leipzig, then why not for Little Buildings?

Where did the "tile counting twice" come from? I can't find it in my rules. My English German Cathedrals rules only mention counting roads seperately.

(Every time I type "there are 4 tiles" I think of Captain Jean Luc Picard's "There are four lights!")
Cheers!

After this analysis I will have to recant since there is no base to support the idea that German Cathedrals were including a tile count modification mechanism. So it is clear to me now that:
* Roads ending at a German Cathedral will score their core feature scoring based on road segments.
* The core feature scoring for these roads will be affected by modifiers such as inns and the German Cathedral itself.
* The Mage and Markets of Leipzig will take into account the original tile count from the road. 

So you did good in insisting about your views of the German Cathedral rules. If the excerpts I included above differ from your printed rules, please let me know. I only have the PDF versions on CarcF to hand at this moment and did all the analysis based on them.

Thanks for helping WICA too.

+1 merit from me.

Cheers!

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2019, 02:56:27 AM »
1. The original German rules by HiG: They only talk about "road segments" (they use the word "Straßenabschnitt") and there is no mention of "tiles" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops.

2. The original English rules by HiG: On the other hand, they use "road tile" (even "tile") preferable over "road segment" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops. Of the 6 occurrences of "road segment" in the German rules, only 1 uses "road segment" explicitly in English. On the other hand, there are 4 mentions of "tile" instead.

Here you are an excerpt of the original rules with some comments. I underlined the expected occurrences of "road segment", that do not match the German Rules most of the time:
So as you can see, the German rules are consistent but the wording of the English ones is somewhat misleading.

The German rules indeed use consequently "Straßenabschnitt" while the English rules vary between roads, road tiles and road segments. But all the clarifications given by HiG afterwards made it clear that in all those cases road segments were meant.

After this analysis I will have to recant since there is no base to support the idea that German Cathedrals were including a tile count modification mechanism. So it is clear to me now that:
* Roads ending at a German Cathedral will score their core feature scoring based on road segments.
* The core feature scoring for these roads will be affected by modifiers such as inns and the German Cathedral itself.
* The Mage and Markets of Leipzig will take into account the original tile count from the road. 

So you did good in insisting about your views of the German Cathedral rules. If the excerpts I included above differ from your printed rules, please let me know. I only have the PDF versions on CarcF to hand at this moment and did all the analysis based on them.

Thanks for helping WICA too.

+1 merit from me.

Cheers!

I think this is indeed the correct interpretation of the rules.
Road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.

Really nice analysis made by both of you!  :D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2019, 09:42:26 AM »
Hi there!

I have updated WICA to keep up with all this analysis:

* German Cathedrals
* Markets of Leipzig
* Scoring During the Game for C1, C2 and WE.
* Scoring After the Game for C1, C2 and WE.

Have fun!

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2019, 05:21:11 PM »
Hi all,

I was just cross-checking the wording using C1 I&C as a well established reference (the scoring of roads with Inns) and I found this:

===
German rules (HiG)

Liegen eine oder mehrere Wirtshaus karten in einer fertigen Straße, so erhält der Wege lagerer 2 Punkte pro Straßenabschnitt (Anzahl der Karten).

English rules (RGG)

If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player.

English rules (ZMG)

If there is at least one inn on a completed road, a thief that is present on that road will score 2 points (instead of 1) per road section (number of tiles).
===

Therefore, for I&C road segments = road tiles (they are equivalent) but for German Cathedrals road segments >= road tiles (there are more road segments than road tiles) when a road starts and ends at a German Cathedral tile.

What do you make of all of this?

I'm starting to think that HiG road tile and road segment are equivalent all the time but the used the same term to refer to the road stretches on a German Cathedral. Otherwise a tile like this one from I&C would contain two road segments and they would have to be counted twice in case both road segments were connected to a road loop connected to a German Cathedral:



What do you think?

It is like when HiG writes "follower" in the rules and sometimes they mean "a follower of any type" and others "a normal follower" and you have to guess the context/intention. Awesome!

Cheers!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:39:58 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 03:03:18 AM »
So... Three questions in this line of thought about the picture below:

1) Easy question: How many road tiles are there in this road to compute anybtile-based bonus (Mage or Wainwright quarter bonus)?
2) Difficult question: How many road segments are there in this road to compute the core feature scoring?
3) Intriguing question: Which tiles are we actually counting more than once because of the road segment issue? Just the German Cathedral tile?

I was assuming a road segment is a road stretch on a tile (it works perfectly with German Cathedral tiles.) But in this case, what happens with the tunnel tiles and the RRRR tile (RrRr if we use the notation discussed in another topic) mentioned in my previous post? Are they just treated as simple tiles no matter the road configuration and only the German Cathedral tile has a special treatment?

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:22:17 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline benbever

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 03:16:19 AM »
edit> this is in reply to the double road tile post, not yet to the post under it with another insane quiz ;)

Hi Meepledrone, here's what I think based on my current understanding/interpretation of the rules.

Base game copyright 2000 Dutch rules (literal translation):
For a finished road the player (...) gets as many points as the road (expressed in land tiles) is long.

This rule is unchanged in later prints, Wheel of Fortune etc.

So "road score" (in points) is taken from "road length" (in number of land tiles)

This includes the 4 tiles example with 3 corners and 1 T-section.
This example has 5 road segments, but 2 of them are on the T-section tile. The 2 road sections on the T-section count as 1 because they are on the same tile, and tiles are counted.
(This is sometimes difficult for beginning players)
The same is true for cities; 2 points per tile that the city consists of. That includes the example of a 6 segment city on 5 tiles worth 10 points.

This game design choice was probably done to encourage the building of larger cities and longer roads over quick scoring smaller ones. (Reminding of the 2 segment city only scoring 2 points in old rules.)

It's a bit unfortunate that German Cathedrals breaks this very basic Carcassonne rule.

Inns and Cathedrals Dutch rules
The thief gets 2 points per land tile that the road consists of.

there was no reason to differentiate between Road Segment (Straßenabschnitt) and number of tiles (Anzahl der Karten).
In fact, it would make things confusing; for counting road score, road tiles were counted.

German Cathedrals copyright 2016 English rules:
1. When you complete a road leading directly to a cathedral your highwayman gives you 2 points for each tile the road consists of.
2. For a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score both roads* seperately.
3. For each closed road with an inn that leads to a cathedral**, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile

The Land tile with a Cathedral, and only this tile, breaks a very basic rule of the game (for no good reason imho)

So "road score" (in points) is taken from "number of seperate roads on the Cathedral tile(s) connected to the finished road" (in road segments) and "road length" (in number of land tiles) for the rest of the road.

*) "both roads" to me implies that they mean both road segments on the Cathedral tile. There are a max of 3 or 4 road segments on a Cathedral tile. By referring to the Cathedral tile explicitly, to me it seems to imply that they don't mean the entire road (starting and ending on a cathedral) is counted as road segments, but only the parts on the Cathedral tile.

With the 2 corners tile you posted, or a roundabout tile, it's possible to make a closed road that starts and ends at a cathedral, which also contains more than 1 road segments on 1 tile elsewhere. I think the special rule only counts for the German Cathedral tile, not the entire road that's connected to it. (despite the rules not being clear on this.)

For a closed loop of 1 German Cathedral and 3 corners the scoring is:
2 road segments worth 2 points each and 3 road tiles worth 2 points each = 10 points.

The scored road feature consists of:
5 road segments, 4 tiles, 3 normal road tiles, 1 German Cathedral tile.
"road length" = 5
Score = 10 points.

With a normal T-section instead of a German Catherdal it would have been:
5 road segments, 4 tiles, 4 road tiles.
"road length" = 4
Score = 4 points.

----------

**) The (English) rules are a bit sloppy in their wording;
"Road with an inn that leads to a cathedral" is missing the word "directly", which is included in "When you complete a road leading directly to a cathedral". By leaving out "directly" it could mean "indirectly" i.e. via a crossroad village or T-section just like in how followers are placed in Leipzig.

Of course this isn't what they intended, but I think it illustrates that it is important to search for what is intended behind the literal rules.

Hence why I think the Cathedral road segments give 3 points when an Inn is involved, instead of 1 of the road segments only giving 2 points because it isn't a road tile, if you take the rules literally. (they don't use road segments consequently since for the previous 15 years road tile counting was the only thing that mattered)
And why I think the special rule only counts for the Catherdral tile, and not the entire road attached to it, even though the rules leave that possibility open.

Cheers


« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 03:18:08 AM by benbever »

Offline benbever

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2019, 03:34:18 AM »
Let me check my roads...

The road consists of:
15 road segments
10 tiles

And based on my current interpretation of the rules:
9 normal road tiles and 1 German Cathedral tile where the road counts twice
Road Length = 11

Offline Windekind

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Re: Scoring quiz with roads
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2019, 05:26:41 AM »
 15 road segments
10 tiles
counting more than once:
- German Cathedral
- Tunnels (Begin & exit) : rules:Only the visible segments of a completed road are scored.
- And why not the RrRr tiles. There are 2 different roads on it that don't came together. It's not a T-section


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