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Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Meepledrone on August 09, 2019, 02:18:40 AM

Title: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 09, 2019, 02:18:40 AM
Hi all,

Here's a little quiz for a relaxing moment in the busy summer.

During a game of mega Carcassonne combining expansions from the new edition plus a little something of the classic one, the red player has just finished a road and it's time to score. He really needs your help because the road has a bit of everything including the witch...

How many points should Red score?
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Windekind on August 09, 2019, 08:05:07 AM
After counting, I get 14 points.
If it is not correct, it would be the problem with the small buildings or the Markets of Liepzig.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 09, 2019, 11:37:27 AM
After counting, I get 14 points.
If it is not correct, it would be the problem with the small buildings or the Markets of Liepzig.

Hi Windekind,

Can you provide more detail on how you got that result? Thank you!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Windekind on August 09, 2019, 01:44:03 PM
The road is 5 tiles long = 5 points
The inn + German cathedral: 3 points/tile (5x3) = 15 points

German castle = +3 = 18 points
Small buildings: 1 point/building: 2 buildings: +2 = 20 points
Watchtower: +2 = 22 points
Markets of Liepzig: +1 bonus points/road: +5 = 27 points

Witch: points are halved = 14 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 10, 2019, 03:15:23 AM
Hint: It it important to bear in mind two things:
1. How many scoring events there are
2. The order of evaluation

That's why they call her the Wicked Witch of the West.... of Carcassonne!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 11, 2019, 01:46:13 AM
My try ????

1. Watchtowers:  2 tiles = 2 points

2. Road: [5 tiles + 5 (Inn) + 6 (German Cathedral) + 5 (Markets of Leipzig)] / 2 (Witch) = 11 points

3. Bonus Little Buildings on road: +2 points
     Bonus German Castle for road: +3 points

So, I would score it 18 points.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 12, 2019, 02:28:47 PM
Thank you Windekind and Vital Pluymers for your participation.

Any more volunteers?  ;D
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 12, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
1. Watchtowers:  2 tiles = 2 points

2. Road: [5(segment) + 5 (Inn) + 5 (German Cathedral) ] / 2 (Witch) +3 points(German Castle)+2 points(Little Houses)= 13 points

3. Follower bonus:+5(Markets of Leipzig)

So, I would score it 20 points.

CAR7.4-Page155
The points from the little buildings are still considered part of the score for the primary
feature, just added after other modifications (such as inn/cathedral and mage/witch). Points from the
little buildings are not a separate scoring event for the purposes of Robbers, Messages, and the
Teacher. (10/2014)
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 13, 2019, 12:46:24 AM
Hi yezhenhan,

Thank you for participating and congrats for your first post!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Halfling on August 14, 2019, 02:25:47 PM
15 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 14, 2019, 02:27:46 PM
Hi Halfling,

Thank you for participating. Can you make a breakdown of your result?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Halfling on August 14, 2019, 10:51:24 PM
I am on holiday so do not have rules to hand. I have the 2 points from the watchtower as a first scoring event. The meeple on the road as the second scoring event. 5 tiles doubled for the Inn, guessing plus five for the cathedral and again for the market plus 2 for houses and plus 3 for the German Castle. That is 25 which is halved by the witch to 13.
2+13=15.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 15, 2019, 12:07:55 AM
Hi Halfling!

I am on holiday so do not have rules to hand.

Whaaaaat? You can always check the rules online on WikiCarpedia (WICA):  ;D

http://www.wikicarpedia.com/ (http://www.wikicarpedia.com/)

Enjoy your vacation!!!

I have the 2 points from the watchtower as a first scoring event. The meeple on the road as the second scoring event. 5 tiles doubled for the Inn, guessing plus five for the cathedral and again for the market plus 2 for houses and plus 3 for the German Castle. That is 25 which is halved by the witch to 13.
2+13=15.

Thank you for the additional detail.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 16, 2019, 02:51:01 PM
Watchtower is scored first; it counts road tiles in the 3x3 grid its on: 2 points.
(the witch and little house do nothing since no road is scored yet)

Then the road is scored.
Because of the Inn, Cathedral connection and meeple on Wainwrights quarter of Leipzig it is worth 4 points per road tile.
5 road tiles x 4 points = 20.
Then the Witch modifier is applied to the core road scoring, halving it (rounded up) results in 10.
Then bonus points are applied. 3 for the Castle connection and 1 for each of 2 little houses makes 5.
Total road score = 15.

Total score for red = 17.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 16, 2019, 11:32:23 PM
Hi benbever,

Thank you for participating.

Any more brave volunteers?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 17, 2019, 05:07:59 AM
Updated my trial  :)
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 17, 2019, 06:14:50 AM
Thanks Vital Pluymers for your update!

You can see this little quiz has many moving parts.  ;D

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 17, 2019, 05:19:26 PM
The Markets of Lepzig
Wainwrights quarter:Each road that is scored with your majority,you get 1 additional point for each tile.
Footnote 5:The English rules provided by Hans im Glück used "1 bonus point" instead of "1 additional point", what can be misleading when combined with other expansions.
Footnote 6: the additional point would be part of the core feature scoring。

I disagree Footnote 6, I think all Leipzig score is bonus for the player,so I have my family rules as follows:

1,Ginderbread man   
2,Watchtower   
3,Feature point   
Castle  get same pionts as the feature
4,Follower Bonus (Darmstadt church,ringmaster,Leipzig)   
Follower bonus is for the follower, Castle  can not get follower bonus
5,Circus   

This family rule is easy for me to remember.

Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 02:28:11 AM
Hi yezhenhan!

Thank you for your comments. I've been reviewing the German and English rules and I think you are completely right. I just updated the pages for Markets of Leipzig and the Scoring During the Game on WICA as a result. After re-reading all the rules, HiG is clearly treating Markets of Leipzig as a bonus for all features although it seemed part of the core feature scoring for roads.

+1 Merit from me for helping WICA. Thank you so much.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 02:30:48 AM
Dear participants!

Feel free to update your results if you desire so to keep up with the previous update.

Thank you so much again for participating in this little quiz.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 18, 2019, 07:23:31 AM
The German rules literally mention "bonus" points in the rules as well.

However I still consider it "core road scoring" since it is exactly the same as Inns, gameplay wise.
Inns make a road worth 2 points per tile for a completed road. Same with Cathedrals.
Multiple Inns don't stack (it stays 2 points per tile.)
But when combined with other expansions, online sources tend to agree that Inns and Cathedrals do stack. And that both give +1 point per road tile. Which is exactly the same as Markets of Leipzig, +1 point per road tile.

I thought the difference between "core" scoring and bonus points was the counting of tiles (meaning multiplication of points).
So +1 per road tile for Inns. And +1 per road tile for Cathedrals (with the added rule of the tile counting double if the road loops back on the Cathedral.) And +1 per road tile, or +3 per shield for cities, for Markets of Leipzig.
I don't see why Leipzig should be treated differently, the mechanism is the same, a bonus score per road tile.

Little Buildings and Castles give a set amount of bonus points, they score for themselves if a road or city is completed. A shed/house/tower is worth 1, 2 or 3 points, and a Castle scores +3 points. This is addition, independent from the number of road tiles.

This page on "The Labyrinth" mentions 4 points/tile if you score a road with one or more Inns, one or more Cathedrals and have a meeple or Wainwrights Quarter
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Labyrinths

The only order of operations problem I see in this quiz is the "timing" of the Witch.
And
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Mage_and_Witch
gives no info on the timing of the Witch.

But the rules on the Witch do mention: (quote)
"When scoring roads with inns and cities with cathedrals where the witch is present, first add the bonus points from the inn or cathedral, then halve the sum."
If the bonus points from the Inns and Cathedrals are halved, then why not the bonus points from Leipzig?

I'm fine with the Witch  halving the points after the road tile scoring, but before the bonus points from Little Buildings and Castle (so (4*5)/2 +1 +1 +3 = 15) And I'm fine with the Witch halving points after the complete scoring for the road (so ((4*5)+1+1+3)/2 = 12.5 rounded up 13). But treating Markets from Leipzig differently just feels random to me.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Hi benbever,

The German rules literally mention "bonus" points in the rules as well.

However I still consider it "core road scoring" since it is exactly the same as Inns, gameplay wise.
Inns make a road worth 2 points per tile for a completed road. Same with Cathedrals.
Multiple Inns don't stack (it stays 2 points per tile.)
But when combined with other expansions, online sources tend to agree that Inns and Cathedrals do stack. And that both give +1 point per road tile. Which is exactly the same as Markets of Leipzig, +1 point per road tile.

I thought the difference between "core" scoring and bonus points was the counting of tiles (meaning multiplication of points).
So +1 per road tile for Inns. And +1 per road tile for Cathedrals (with the added rule of the tile counting double if the road loops back on the Cathedral.) And +1 per road tile, or +3 per shield for cities, for Markets of Leipzig.
I don't see why Leipzig should be treated differently, the mechanism is the same, a bonus score per road tile.

When I started this quiz I was sharing the same thoughts about Markets of Leipzig and roads. I was assuming all modifiers of the value per tile would be part of the core feature scoring. This was and odd case as Markets of Leipzig behaves differently for all other features:

* Cities: it is not part of the core feature scoring as the bonus points go to those players with a meeple in the Coiners quarter and with at least a meeple in the city being scored. Majority in the city is not required, so this bonus is dissociated from the feature. Red is scoring the city but yellow can be getting the bonus points.
 
* Monasteries (and all other monastic buildings by extension): the bonus points are dissociated from the feature. You may get the bonus without a meeple in a monastery.

* Fields: This is a bonus similar to Little Buildings. So there is no discussion.

So under this scenario, Markets of Leipzig would affect the core feature scoring for roads but it would behave as a normal bonus for all the other features.

I just wanted to use the Witch in the quiz to stress this point but if you check the rules (German and English), you can see they always talk about bonus in general terms when discussing the scoring so for me there are two facts here:
* Markets of Leipzig should be consistent with itself and the bonus should be applied the same to all the features (at the end).
* There is another modifier that adds points per tile and it is not a a core feature scoring: the Mage. It is applied after the Inn/Cathedral, so you can have a road or city scoring 0 points at the end of the game due o an Inn or a Cathedral respectively that gets one point per tile thanks to the Mage (city pennants are not that lucky in this case.)

So Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads cannot be considered an odd case. The Mage set a precedent here.

Little Buildings and Castles give a set amount of bonus points, they score for themselves if a road or city is completed. A shed/house/tower is worth 1, 2 or 3 points, and a Castle scores +3 points. This is addition, independent from the number of road tiles.

This page on "The Labyrinth" mentions 4 points/tile if you score a road with one or more Inns, one or more Cathedrals and have a meeple or Wainwrights Quarter
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Labyrinths

That's why I added a comment to indicate that that section works if the Mage and the Witch are not involved. I would need to rework that table as each row would have to include 3 cases: no modifiers, with Mage, with Witch.

The only order of operations problem I see in this quiz is the "timing" of the Witch.
And
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Mage_and_Witch
gives no info on the timing of the Witch.

But the rules on the Witch do mention: (quote)
"When scoring roads with inns and cities with cathedrals where the witch is present, first add the bonus points from the inn or cathedral, then halve the sum."
If the bonus points from the Inns and Cathedrals are halved, then why not the bonus points from Leipzig?

I'm fine with the Witch  halving the points after the road tile scoring, but before the bonus points from Little Buildings and Castle (so (4*5)/2 +1 +1 +3 = 15) And I'm fine with the Witch halving points after the complete scoring for the road (so ((4*5)+1+1+3)/2 = 12.5 rounded up 13). But treating Markets from Leipzig differently just feels random to me.

I love consistency in the rules. In this case, Markets of Leipzig was designed to be used with the base game and there are no clarifications about its interaction with other expansions. German Cathedrals and Mage & Witch included some clarifications about how to deal with Inns & Cathedrals. So all the scoring calculations is based on this and a bonus like Little Buildings is applied at the end after all modifiers. So implicitly the rules distinguish between:
* What we call the core feature scoring based on the number of points per tile
* Additional bonuses applied afterwards.

The Carcassonne expansions do not make this separation easy in some cases, so let's assume 3 steps when computing the scoring for roads and cities:
1. The core feature scoring based on the number of points per tile (and pennants when applicable) with some modifiers being Inns/Cathedrals the last one applied because its all or nothing nature during the end of the game.
2. An additional modifier applied after core feature scoring: Mage & Witch as per the rules
3. Additional bonuses from other related features such as Little Buildings and so on.

If we consider Markets of Leipzig as an additional bonus as it is stated once and again in its rules, then it should be part of step 3 in the case of roads for roads and cities.

All your comments are welcome.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 18, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
Hi Meepledrone,
here's my thoughts again, and thanks for working on these rules!

The official rules unfortunately are unclear about "order of operations" (timing) rules on scoring.
They only give "Mage and Witch after Inns and Cathedrals" and "Little Buildings after all others".
And for German Cathedrals they explain a road tile is worth 3 points with a German Cathedral and an Inn (or 0 points if unfinished).

For Castles in Germany and Markets of Leipzig I couldn't find anything official. So I guessed the castle to be "bonus points" based on that it scored a castle, which is more like a Little Building as in its not a road (tile). And Market of Leipzig to be "core road scoring" based on being road tiles, and having a mechanism exactly like Inns and German Cathedrals. (and the Labyrinth page mentioning a road tile being worth 4 points).

The question you try to answer is if scoring for the Market of Leipzig is "core scoring for the feature" or "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature". Which imho doesn't have a clear answer.

Wainwrights quarter +1 point for each road tile for the player with the majority on the road. Exactly like a finished Inn, or German Cathedral. Very much associated with the road (tiles.)
Coiners quarter +3 points for each coat of arms in a scored city in which you have at least one meeple (not neccesarily the majority).
If Red and Yellow have a Meeple in Coiners quarter, and Red scores the city, the fact that Yellow also gets point, does not dissociate the points Red receives from the points from scoring the city. If there's a Witch on the city, I'm not convinced that the Witch is applied before the addition of the Coiners quarter bonus points.
Bookbinders quarter A completed Monastery gives 9 points (most of the time) to the meeple on it, and with a meeple on Bookbinders quarter it gives +4 more points, also to other people not on the monastery but with a meeple on Bookbinders quarter. I don't see how the 4 points are Bookbinders dissociate. Furthermore a Witch can't be on a Monastery.
Tanners quarter Same as Bookbinders quarter, points associated with fields, and the Witch can't go on fields anyway.

So for all of these scenarios, the scoring can be considered "core feature scoring".

However, all of these can also be considered "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature".
That is, if you consider the actual Meeple, on the Market in Leipzig, doing the scoring. Which also makes a lot of sense. The Meeple on the road scores the core points, then the witch comes in, then the score from the meeple in Leipzig is added, then Little buildings "after everything else".

It would be so much easier if the Scoring from the Market of Leipzig was a seperate scoring event, like the Watchtowers.

Or if the Mage/Witch had the rule that they're applied last.

If we apply Occam's razor (simplest rule solution is the best) applying the Witch last is the best option(disregarding the rules on Little Buidings)...
((5 tiles * 4) +3 +1 +1)/2 = 12.5 -> 13

Witch after road scoring but before Castle and Little Buildings would be less clear:
( (5 tiles * 4)/2 ) +3 +1 +1 = 15

And Witch after Inns and Cathedrals but Before Markets of Leipzig, Castle and Little Buildings would be the hardest to explain to casual players daring to play Mega Carcassonne...
( (5 tiles * 3)/2 + (5 tiles * 1) +3 +1 +1 = 17.5 -> 18

In short; Witch modifier between Inn/Cathedral road tile +1 bonus and Markets of Leipzig road tile +1 bonus will be really hard to explain to casual players. Which I think is the main reason against it. Unless the Meeple doing the Leipzig scoring was a seperate scoring event, offically dissociated from the road scoring, like the Watchtower.

So Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads cannot be considered an odd case. The Mage set a precedent here.
The Market of Leipzig scoring per tile being unprecedented or not is not an issue. And the Mage can't be on the same road as the Witch.

That's why I added a comment to indicate that that section works if the Mage and the Witch are not involved. I would need to rework that table as each row would have to include 3 cases: no modifiers, with Mage, with Witch.
Still, 4 points/tile is a bit misleading if one of the points is considered a bonus point and the other 3 are considered core feature points. The official rules only ever mention 0, 1, 2 or 3 points/tile.

3. Additional bonuses from other related features such as Little Buildings and so on.
Little Buildings are added to the score "after all others". So after other bonus features.
And the other bonus features (Castles in Germany, maybe Markets of Leipzig) are unclear about when they are added to the score, before or after the Witch for instance.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 03:42:37 PM
Hi Meepledrone,
here's my thoughts again, and thanks for working on these rules!

Hi benbever,

Believe or not I was waiting for this discussion to happen. The idea behind the quiz was to massage some interactions not very clear according to the rules. So I could challenge the conclusions included in WICA. This is probably a masochistic exercise but I find it quite interesting.

So here we are, discussing out understanding of Markets of Leipzig and depending on the outcome you see all the implications after it. 

The official rules unfortunately are unclear about "order of operations" (timing) rules on scoring.

Correct.

They only give "Mage and Witch after Inns and Cathedrals" and "Little Buildings after all others".

Correct. That all there is.

And for German Cathedrals they explain a road tile is worth 3 points with a German Cathedral and an Inn (or 0 points if unfinished).

Correct. The rules for roads were clear and the only special case is when a road network ends several times at the same cathedral tile. On the other hand, the rules for the scoring of cathedrals where finally clarified in 04/2016. The last clarification to date by HiG.

For Castles in Germany and Markets of Leipzig I couldn't find anything official. So I guessed the castle to be "bonus points" based on that it scored a castle, which is more like a Little Building as in its not a road (tile). And Market of Leipzig to be "core road scoring" based on being road tiles, and having a mechanism exactly like Inns and German Cathedrals. (and the Labyrinth page mentioning a road tile being worth 4 points).

I followed the same reasoning for German Castles and Markets of Leipzig during my previous review of the latter (ML provided core feature scoring for roads but bonus for the rest of the features.)

The question you try to answer is if scoring for the Market of Leipzig is "core scoring for the feature" or "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature". Which imho doesn't have a clear answer.

I agree completely. This is the Gordian Knot of this issue and this decision is the one making the difference. Everything else will fall into place after this.

Wainwrights quarter +1 point for each road tile for the player with the majority on the road. Exactly like a finished Inn, or German Cathedral. Very much associated with the road (tiles.)

By definition seems core feature scoring (my first opinion during several months)

Coiners quarter +3 points for each coat of arms in a scored city in which you have at least one meeple (not neccesarily the majority).

Correct. It is a bonus since it may benefit players not scoring the feature at all: those just present in the city.

If Red and Yellow have a Meeple in Coiners quarter, and Red scores the city, the fact that Yellow also gets point, does not dissociate the points Red receives from the points from scoring the city. If there's a Witch on the city, I'm not convinced that the Witch is applied before the addition of the Coiners quarter bonus points.

I used the word "dissociate" to indicate that scoring the feature and getting bonus points are not linked. There are several cases that closing a feature triggers an additional scoring that may benefit the player with majority or other players. For example: 3 points from the fairy, the Watchtowers, Darmstadt churches bonus, the Ringmasters, the Gingerbread Man,...

For example: City with 3 pennants completed by Red with a mayor. In the city you have Yellow's large meeple and Green's Ringmaster next to the Fairy. Red and Yellow have a Meeple in Coiners quarter.
* Red scores the city and get the coiners bonus for the 3 pennants - Red has the majority with a mayor and 3 pennants.
* Yellow does not have the majority with a large Meeple so the player only gets points from the Coiners quarter for the 3 pennants.
* Green does not have the majority either but the Fairy next to his Meeple scores 3 points plus the Ringmaster points. These points are not associated to the city, they are just triggered by the completed city being scored.

This is the type of dissociation I'm talking about: Someone else's action makes you score points.

Therefore I consider these types of scoring events as bonus. The scoring player may get them or not along with other players. So they are not linked to the feature.

Bookbinders quarter A completed Monastery gives 9 points (most of the time) to the meeple on it, and with a meeple on Bookbinders quarter it gives +4 more points, also to other people not on the monastery but with a meeple on Bookbinders quarter. I don't see how the 4 points are Bookbinders dissociate. Furthermore a Witch can't be on a Monastery.

Again, the term "dissociation" indicates another player is scoring the points when it is not even on the scored feature. If you find the term too drastic you may suggest another word.

Tanners quarter Same as Bookbinders quarter, points associated with fields, and the Witch can't go on fields anyway.

Here the bonus it is associated to the feature, but fields do not score the feature based on tiles but on cities and on Exp. 8 castles. Markets of Leipzig works in this case similar to Little Buildings.

So for all of these scenarios, the scoring can be considered "core feature scoring".

For cities, monasteries and fields, Markets of Leipzig provides a bonus:
* In the case of cities and monasteries players may get extra points from features without the majority or even without their presence as with monasteries.
* Regarding fields, the core scoring is provided by the value assigned to each city/castle and all the modifiers applied to them: pigs, pigsties/pig-heards, sieges. After that, everything is a bonus (Little Buildings, Tanners quarter)

However, all of these can also be considered "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature".
That is, if you consider the actual Meeple, on the Market in Leipzig, doing the scoring. Which also makes a lot of sense. The Meeple on the road scores the core points, then the witch comes in, then the score from the meeple in Leipzig is added, then Little buildings "after everything else".

Bingo! I think we have a winner! This is a nice way to put it. This is my approach to the issue. Markets of Leipzig provides bonuses for all the features because your meeples in one or more quarters grant you that capability. Additionally, you may need to comply with extra requirements such as in the case of cities.

It would be so much easier if the Scoring from the Market of Leipzig was a seperate scoring event, like the Watchtowers.

Not necessarily. What we need is a clear definition.

Or if the Mage/Witch had the rule that they're applied last.

Well, Little Buildings spared us from this possibility.  ???

If we apply Occam's razor (simplest rule solution is the best) applying the Witch last is the best option(disregarding the rules on Little Buidings)...
((5 tiles * 4) +3 +1 +1)/2 = 12.5 -> 13

I wish it was this simple  >:D

Witch after road scoring but before Castle and Little Buildings would be less clear:
( (5 tiles * 4)/2 ) +3 +1 +1 = 15

This would be the case where Markets of Leipzig is considered a core feature scoring. My previous understanding.  ???

And Witch after Inns and Cathedrals but Before Markets of Leipzig, Castle and Little Buildings would be the hardest to explain to casual players daring to play Mega Carcassonne...
( (5 tiles * 3)/2 + (5 tiles * 1) +3 +1 +1 = 17.5 -> 18

This would be the case where Markets of Leipzig is considered a bonus. My current understanding.  :)

In short; Witch modifier between Inn/Cathedral road tile +1 bonus and Markets of Leipzig road tile +1 bonus will be really hard to explain to casual players. Which I think is the main reason against it. Unless the Meeple doing the Leipzig scoring was a seperate scoring event, offically dissociated from the road scoring, like the Watchtower.

The Meeple in Leipzig approach is easy to understand if it works the same for all the cases. That's my point.

You score a feature without taking into account Markets of Leipzig and once finished you add the bonus if applicable. In the case a completed road, you score it as usual (no Markets of Leipzig involved) and at the end, since you've been a good guy with a Meeple in the Wainwrights quarter, you add a bonus equal to the number of tiles of the road being scored. It is not so difficult.

So Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads cannot be considered an odd case. The Mage set a precedent here.
The Market of Leipzig scoring per tile being unprecedented or not is not an issue. And the Mage can't be on the same road as the Witch.

That's why I added a comment to indicate that that section works if the Mage and the Witch are not involved. I would need to rework that table as each row would have to include 3 cases: no modifiers, with Mage, with Witch.
Still, 4 points/tile is a bit misleading if one of the points is considered a bonus point and the other 3 are considered core feature points. The official rules only ever mention 0, 1, 2 or 3 points/tile.

3. Additional bonuses from other related features such as Little Buildings and so on.
Little Buildings are added to the score "after all others". So after other bonus features.
And the other bonus features (Castles in Germany, maybe Markets of Leipzig) are unclear about when they are added to the score, before or after the Witch for instance.

Just having a look at the Mage case, how you would apply the score modifier in the example attached below? (I was reserving it for another quiz but who cares!  ;D)

The Mage is placed on an uncompleted road at the end of the game. The Mage bonus is related to the number of tiles of the feature but it is not part of the core feature scoring. It is applied after a all-or-nothing scoring modifier... This is what I was referring to in my previous post when I was citing the MAge of an example of a bonus based on the number of tiles of a feature but not associated to its core feature scoring.

Check it out!

As a closing note, I think the bottomline is your paragraph above:

However, all of these can also be considered "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature".
That is, if you consider the actual Meeple, on the Market in Leipzig, doing the scoring. Which also makes a lot of sense. The Meeple on the road scores the core points, then the witch comes in, then the score from the meeple in Leipzig is added, then Little buildings "after everything else".

I think you see what I see now.

Let me know your thoughts!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 19, 2019, 12:58:03 AM
When I started this quiz I was sharing the same thoughts about Markets of Leipzig and roads. I was assuming all modifiers of the value per tile would be part of the core feature scoring. This was and odd case as Markets of Leipzig behaves differently for all other features:

* Cities: it is not part of the core feature scoring as the bonus points go to those players with a meeple in the Coiners quarter and with at least a meeple in the city being scored. Majority in the city is not required, so this bonus is dissociated from the feature. Red is scoring the city but yellow can be getting the bonus points.
 
* Monasteries (and all other monastic buildings by extension): the bonus points are dissociated from the feature. You may get the bonus without a meeple in a monastery.

* Fields: This is a bonus similar to Little Buildings. So there is no discussion.

So under this scenario, Markets of Leipzig would affect the core feature scoring for roads but it would behave as a normal bonus for all the other features.


This analysis convinced me that the extra scoring for roads as a result of a meeple in the Wainwrights Quarter should be considered as a bonus scoring that happens after the core scoring.

However, all of these can also be considered "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature".
That is, if you consider the actual Meeple, on the Market in Leipzig, doing the scoring. Which also makes a lot of sense. The Meeple on the road scores the core points, then the witch comes in, then the score from the meeple in Leipzig is added, then Little buildings "after everything else".

I think this is indeed how the scoring should be considered.

So for Example 1, this would mean:
1. Watchtowers: 2 tiles containing a road => 2 points
2. Road: 5 tiles x 3 (Inn + German Cathedral) / 2 (Witch) => 8 points
3. Bonuses:  Markets of Leipzig => 5 points
                   Little Buildings => 2 points

Total: 17 points

For Example 2, the scoring is:
1. Road: 5 tiles (road with German Cathedral) x 0 (Inn) / 2 (Witch) => 0 points
2. Bonus: Little Buildings => 2 points

Total: 2 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 19, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
Hi Vital Pluymers,

I'm glad we agree. It''s been a long journey for me to come to this conclusion.

One thing, Example 2 has a Mage, not a Witch. It was to illustrate a case where tile-based scoring is not part of the core feature scoring.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 19, 2019, 03:17:44 AM
Oops :-)

Then it would be:
1. Road: 5 tiles (road with German Cathedral) x 0 (Inn) => 0 points
2. Bonuses: Mage => 5 points
                  Little Buildings => 2 points

Total: 7 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 19, 2019, 09:20:43 AM
I have no problem with Markets of Leipzig counting as bonus score whatsoever. The only negative I see is in how the scoring mechanism for roads is so very similar to Inns and German Cathedrals. But the rules in the rulebooklets are already different; Wainwright Quarter gives +1 bonus point per road tile, Inns give 2 points per road tile, German Cathedrals give 2 points per road tile, and Inn+German Cathedral gives 3 points per road tile. The "+1" is a different mechanic than "gives 2 points".

The points from the other quarters of Leipzig are easily understood as bonus points. And by using these as an example, and the Meeple in Leipzig, or Leipzig itself, doing the scoring for the player, it's pretty easy to explain.
tbh I would be equally happy if all these scores were core feature scores (ie before the witch) but the most important thing is a community consensus (by lack of an official ruling).

As for the 2nd "puzzle":
The road is worth 0 at games end, but it is scored. Mage adds +1/tile so +5 points. Little houses are worth their normal value at the final counting so 2 x +1. Total 7 points.

So here's another one:
(https://benbever.home.xs4all.nl/Carcassonne/example01.png)

from the rules:

Special rule when scoring a road, unlike the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately - i.e. that tile counts twice.

When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 19, 2019, 10:15:44 AM
So here's another one:
(https://benbever.home.xs4all.nl/Carcassonne/example01.png)

from the rules:

Special rule when scoring a road, unlike the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately - i.e. that tile counts twice.

When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.

For the sake of consistency, I believe the Cathedral tile should be counted twice as well when calculating the Wainwright Quarter bonus.
So, 5 points x 3 (Inns and German Cathedral), plus 5 points for the Markets of Leipzig. Total 20 points.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 19, 2019, 11:19:43 AM
How about this one:
(https://benbever.home.xs4all.nl/Carcassonne/example02.png)
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 19, 2019, 03:43:44 PM
My family rule is easy remember and consistent with other expansion(including fans expansion).I have three reasons.
1,Markets of Leipzig should be consistent with itself and the bonus should be applied the same to all four quarters.(Meepledrone mentioned)
2,Leipzig is different from Inn and German Cathedral.
Leipzig only count road tile(the picture is road+1),not including wells.However Inn and German Cathedral affect the wells.
3,Witch can only half feature  core score,not the bonus(including feature bonus and follower bonus).If witch half the leipzig follower bonus,she is too strong.we should balance different expansion.

answer the quiz from benbever

1. Road: 5 (segment) + 5 (Inn) + 5 (German Cathedral)  +5 (Mage) +2 points(Little Houses)= 22points     (castle get 22 points also)

2. Follower bonus:5 points(Markets of Leipzig)castle can not get the 5 points

So, I would score it 27 points.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 20, 2019, 12:00:28 AM
I agree with yezhenhan on the scoring of the Mage. For the sake of consistency, once a German Cathedral is ending a road two or more times, the German Cathedral tile should be counted two or more times for all other scoring mechanisms, including the Mage and the Markets of Leipzig.

So 27 points for me as well.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 20, 2019, 12:44:08 AM
The tile is counted twice for Mage, and counted twice for the Markets of Leipzig bonus score, but only once for the Little Building? From the rules: "each of the new buildings located on a landscape tile of the structure scores 1 additional point"
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 20, 2019, 01:32:37 AM
I agree. German Cathedrals present a special case for counting road tiles as their road segments are counted individually (this makes the tile to be counted multiple times in road loops) but Little Buildings behave as usual.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 20, 2019, 02:19:20 AM
Cathedrals in Germany
"When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile"
"Special rule when scoring a road; for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately"

I was thinking these rules apply to the "core road scoring". And that the "3 points per tile" and the "you count and score each section of the road seperately" are part of the German Catherdrals modifier.

So 5 tiles x 3 points = 15 points.

After that the Mage points are added, after that the Markets of Leipzig bonus points for scoring the road, and after that the Little Buildings bonus points.

Mage and Witch
"Whenever you complete a feature occupied by a magic figure, they modify the score: The mage is worth 1 point per tile in the scored feature."

The scored feature consists of 5 road segments, 4 tiles and 15 points.
The Mage counts tiles, not road segments, so via the Mage 4 points are added.

Markets of Leipzig
"Wainwrights quarter: Each road that is scored with your majority, you get 1 bonus point for each tile"

4 tiles, so 4 bonus points gained via Wainwrights quarter.

Little Buildings
"Each of the new buildings located on a landscape tile of the structure or the farm scores 1 additional point"

Two Little buildings 1 point each, so 2 x +1.
The German Cathedral tile does not count twice. The double counting was only for road segments in the road score.

15 +4 +4 +1 +1 = 25 points.


Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 20, 2019, 03:52:41 AM
Cathedrals in Germany
"When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile"
"Special rule when scoring a road; for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately"

I was thinking these rules apply to the "core road scoring". And that the "3 points per tile" and the "you count and score each section of the road seperately" are part of the German Catherdrals modifier.

So 5 tiles x 3 points = 15 points.

After that the Mage points are added, after that the Markets of Leipzig bonus points for scoring the road, and after that the Little Buildings bonus points.

Mage and Witch
"Whenever you complete a feature occupied by a magic figure, they modify the score: The mage is worth 1 point per tile in the scored feature."

The scored feature consists of 5 road segments, 4 tiles and 15 points.
The Mage counts tiles, not road segments, so via the Mage 4 points are added.

Markets of Leipzig
"Wainwrights quarter: Each road that is scored with your majority, you get 1 bonus point for each tile"

4 tiles, so 4 bonus points gained via Wainwrights quarter.

Little Buildings
"Each of the new buildings located on a landscape tile of the structure or the farm scores 1 additional point"

Two Little buildings 1 point each, so 2 x +1.
The German Cathedral tile does not count twice. The double counting was only for road segments in the road score.

15 +4 +4 +1 +1 = 25 points.


Hi there!

IMHO there is a trick here... The rules implicitly convert road segments into tile count, so the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once if participating in a road more than once.

A 4-tile road with a loop back to the Cathedral tile means 5 road segments. However, since the points are applied per tile, the rules assume you have a 5-tile road as a special case. Therefore if the rules modify the tile count for the scoring when a German Cathedral tile is involved more than once, why not keep this altered tile count for all the tile-based bonus calculations, namely Mage and Markets of Leipzig? For me is the simpler solution.

My strict interpretation of the rules would be the following (I think it overdoes it and I don't back it, but here it is):

In the example above the have 5 roads segments in 4 tiles, so the score would be as follows:

1. Core feature scoring = 13 points (decomposing the score feature in "layers")
   - Road basic score: 5 road segments * 1 point = 5 points
   - Inn : 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - German Cathedral: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
2. Bonuses = 10 points
   - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Markets of Leipzig: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Little Buildings: 2 buildings * 1 point = 2 points

Total = 23 points

So, in this case the core feature scoring would be 4 tiles * 3 points + 1 extra point per the additional road segment = 13 points. This would count real tiles, and treat additional road segments separately.

On the other hand, we all know that this is not the spirit of the expansion for example when interacting with Inn & Cathedrals as per the wording of the rules: as a special case, they consider the road segment count as the tile count for this feature.

IMHO this distinction of tile count between core feature and bonuses seems a bit odd. The simpler thing is to use the "altered tile count" in all cases for the sake of consistency, that is, the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once to all effects to compute the scoring when the road loops back to the German Cathedral tile.

What do you think?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 20, 2019, 05:17:22 AM
The rules implicitly convert road segments into tile count, so the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once if participating in a road more than once.
The rules say you count and score each section of the road separately. The German Cathedral road tile is "counted twice" *because* the road segments are counted seperately. The rules never mention counting the tile twice. They say you count and score both roads seperately.
NB Wikicarpedia mentions counting the road tile twice in an i.e. addendum, but this is not in my printed rules (English).

A 4-tile road with a loop back to the Cathedral tile means 5 road segments. However, since the points are applied per tile, the rules assume you have a 5-tile road as a special case. Therefore if the rules modify the tile count for the scoring when a German Cathedral tile is involved more than once, why not keep this altered tile count for all the tile-based bonus calculations, namely Mage and Markets of Leipzig? For me is the simpler solution.
Because you count and score roads. Normally with a T-section loop the rules explain that the road on the T-section is not counted twice. With a German Cathedral T-section, the two road segements are both counted. The tile count is always 4. Four tiles staying four tiles is the easier solution for me.

My strict interpretation of the rules would be the following (I think it overdoes it and I don't back it, but here it is):
In the example above the have 5 roads segments in 4 tiles, so the score would be as follows:

1. Core feature scoring = 13 points (decomposing the score feature in "layers")
   - Road basic score: 5 road segments * 1 point = 5 points
   - Inn : 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - German Cathedral: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
2. Bonuses = 10 points
   - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Markets of Leipzig: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Little Buildings: 2 buildings * 1 point = 2 points
Total = 23 points

So, in this case the core feature scoring would be 4 tiles * 3 points + 1 extra point per the additional road segment = 13 points. This would count real tiles, and treat additional road segments separately.

This is in direct contradiction to a scoring example in the printed rules.
The example is a closed loop of 4 tiles with a German Cathedral.
The score is 5 (road segments) x 2 points (because of the German Cathedral) = 10 points.

With an Inn you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.
So according to these rules the score would be:
5 roads x 3 points = 15 points
OR
4 road tiles x 3 points + 2 points from the German Cathedral road segment = 14 points.

The rules are unclear about which of these two is correct.
(but I'm using the first one)

On the other hand, we all know that this is not the spirit of the expansion for example when interacting with Inn & Cathedrals as per the wording of the rules: as a special case, they consider the road segment count as the tile count for this feature.

IMHO this distinction of tile count between core feature and bonuses seems a bit odd. The simpler thing is to use the "altered tile count" in all cases for the sake of consistency, that is, the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once to all effects to compute the scoring when the road loops back to the German Cathedral tile. What do you think?

I think insisting that there are 5 tiles for bonus scoring that is dissociated from the road feature seems odd.
- For Inns it makes some sense to apply the road modifier with the German Cathedrals.
- For Mage it feels odd, it gives +1 per tile in the scored feature, and there are literally only 4 tiles. The Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities that give extra points. Why would it give +1 for an extra road segment that gives extra points??
- For Wainwrights quarters it also feels weird, The Markets of Leipzig give +1 point for each road tile, and there are 4 of them.
- For the Little Building it feels odd to count it twice. But if the tile is counted twice for Mage and Markets of Leipzig, then why not for Little Buildings?

Where did the "tile counting twice" come from? I can't find it in my rules. My English German Cathedrals rules only mention counting roads seperately.

(Every time I type "there are 4 tiles" I think of Captain Jean Luc Picard's "There are four lights!")
Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 21, 2019, 01:37:46 AM
Hi benver!

Here you are my comments.

The rules implicitly convert road segments into tile count, so the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once if participating in a road more than once.
The rules say you count and score each section of the road separately. The German Cathedral road tile is "counted twice" *because* the road segments are counted seperately. The rules never mention counting the tile twice. They say you count and score both roads seperately.

I've been reviewing the original rules in German and English to find any differences. I also checked the clarifications that HiG provided in 04/2016 to check if anything fell through the cracks too. Here is result:

1. The original German rules by HiG: They only talk about "road segments" (they use the word "Straßenabschnitt") and there is no mention of "tiles" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops.

2. The original English rules by HiG: On the other hand, they use "road tile" (even "tile") preferable over "road segment" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops. Of the 6 occurrences of "road segment" in the German rules, only 1 uses "road segment" explicitly in English. On the other hand, there are 4 mentions of "tile" instead.

Here you are an excerpt of the original rules with some comments. I underlined the expected occurrences of "road segment", that do not match the German Rules most of the time:

===

>> Scoring a closed road

[Rules] When you complete a road leading directly to a cathedral your highwayman gives you 2 points for each tile the road consist of.

[Comment] The English rules used "tile" instead of "road segment".

>> Special rule when scoring a road

[Rules] Differently to the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score both roads separately

[Comment] The English rules omit the word "segment" as the German rules.

>> Scoring a cathedral

[Rules] The cathedral itself will only be scored once all roads leading to it are closed. The archbishop gives you points for all these roads - 1 point for each road tile.

[Comment] The English rules use "road tile" instead of "road segment" as in German.

[Rules] The 3 or 4 road segments on the cathedral tile are counted separately.

[Comment] The English rules use "road segment" the same as in German.

>> Final score

[Rules] At the end of the game all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Highwaymen and archbishops give you one point for each road tile leading to the cathedral.

[Comment] The English rules use "road tile" instead of "road segment" as in German.

>> Special rules in combination with expansions

[Rules] First expansion: For each closed road with an inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile, and 2 points instead of 1 for your archbishop.

[Comment] The English rules use "road tile" instead of "road segment" as in German.

===

So as you can see, the German rules are consistent but the wording of the English ones is somewhat misleading.


3. Clarifications by HiG: Our friends on CarcF got some clarifications from HiG you addressing several topics.

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3237&p=40694#p40906)

Here is the translation into English:

===

[Q1] According to the cathedral rule, the number of "road segments" is decisive for the evaluation. In the rules of the new Carcassonne edition the word "road segments" ("Straßenabschnitt") cannot be found. The rule for the old edition uses the "road segment" as the designation of the individual road markings on a landscape tile. However, the score is always based on the number of landscape tiles (e.g. 4 points for a circle with 5 road segments on 4 landscape tiles). Are the "road segments" or the participating landscape tiles evaluated now for the "Cathedrals in Germany"?

[A1] The road segments are evaluated.


[Q2] The question arose with the evaluation of branched roads, which are connected somehow also with the cathedral:
"What are "road segments leading to the cathedral?" So are all "road segments" meant that are in any way connected to the cathedral?

[A2] I'm not sure you want to go ahead with this question. Are you wondering about the wells / roundabouts? In any case, this refers to all road segments of the roads that have a road segment on the cathedral tile.
The examples in the forum "Cathedrals in Germany - Riddles: Evaluation" are correct.

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222#p40374 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222#p40374)

Note: You can find the English version on CarcC as well:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37680#msg37680 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37680#msg37680)


[Q3] "For a highwayman as well as for an archbishop you get 1 point each for every road segment leading to the cathedral".
This formulation leads to the conclusion that at the end of the game, a highwayman gets points for every road segment connected to the cathedral, no matter if he "owns" these roads or not.
Is that really the intention, or is it just the unfortunate formulation?

[A3] That is not the intention. What is meant is: A highwayman is evaluated normally, even if a part of his road ends at a cathedral.

Note: So majority applies when scoring roads with German Cathedrals. This is the meaning of normal evaluation here.


[Q4] At the end of the game, unfinished cathedrals are also scored. If an unfinished cathedral has a completed road with an inn (as in the 2nd riddle with the cathedrals, see link below) the archbishop receives 0, 1 or 2 points per road tile / "road segment"?

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222#p40381 (https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=3222#p40381)

Note: You can find the English version on CarcC as well:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37715#msg37715 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37715#msg37715)

[A4] This is clearly stated in the rules of the game. The archbishop receives 2 points per road segment.

===

So the conclusion is:
* Roads connected to German Cathedrals are evaluated by their number of road segment not the their number of tiles
* Majority is taken into account for the evaluation
* Inns are taken into consideration
* German Cathedrals are evaluated based on the roads connected to them independently. Additionally:
  - The road segments on the German Cathedral tile are counted independently
  - A road connecting two or more road segments on a German Cathedral tile is evaluated only once
* Other road modifiers such as German Castles benefit road evaluation as usual but are not applied to the German Cathedral evaluation. Officially it takes into account road segments and inns.


NB Wikicarpedia mentions counting the road tile twice in an i.e. addendum, but this is not in my printed rules (English).

This was an addition based on the inference that the scoring of German Cathedrals was more related to tile count that it is really as per the German rules. In terms of scoring is equivalent. The problem comes with the line of thought that German Cathedrals modify the tile count. The German rules show clearly this is not the case although the English rules seem to go in that direction.

A 4-tile road with a loop back to the Cathedral tile means 5 road segments. However, since the points are applied per tile, the rules assume you have a 5-tile road as a special case. Therefore if the rules modify the tile count for the scoring when a German Cathedral tile is involved more than once, why not keep this altered tile count for all the tile-based bonus calculations, namely Mage and Markets of Leipzig? For me is the simpler solution.
Because you count and score roads. Normally with a T-section loop the rules explain that the road on the T-section is not counted twice. With a German Cathedral T-section, the two road segements are both counted. The tile count is always 4. Four tiles staying four tiles is the easier solution for me.

My strict interpretation of the rules would be the following (I think it overdoes it and I don't back it, but here it is):
In the example above the have 5 roads segments in 4 tiles, so the score would be as follows:

1. Core feature scoring = 13 points (decomposing the score feature in "layers")
   - Road basic score: 5 road segments * 1 point = 5 points
   - Inn : 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - German Cathedral: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
2. Bonuses = 10 points
   - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Markets of Leipzig: 4 tiles * 1 additional point = 4 points
   - Little Buildings: 2 buildings * 1 point = 2 points
Total = 23 points

So, in this case the core feature scoring would be 4 tiles * 3 points + 1 extra point per the additional road segment = 13 points. This would count real tiles, and treat additional road segments separately.

This is in direct contradiction to a scoring example in the printed rules.

My example below is a just a mind experiment to see how far I could tweak the rules to get a weird approach when scoring. Sorry for torturing you with this nonsense.

The example is a closed loop of 4 tiles with a German Cathedral.
The score is 5 (road segments) x 2 points (because of the German Cathedral) = 10 points.

With an Inn you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.
So according to these rules the score would be:
5 roads x 3 points = 15 points
OR
4 road tiles x 3 points + 2 points from the German Cathedral road segment = 14 points.

The rules are unclear about which of these two is correct.
(but I'm using the first one)

The right scoring would be:

5 roads segments x 3 points = 15 points

Check this post with the solution to a riddle by kettlefish accepted as correct by HiG (I included the link to the enunciation above too - the German and English versions)

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37695#msg37695 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2580.msg37695#msg37695)


On the other hand, we all know that this is not the spirit of the expansion for example when interacting with Inn & Cathedrals as per the wording of the rules: as a special case, they consider the road segment count as the tile count for this feature.

IMHO this distinction of tile count between core feature and bonuses seems a bit odd. The simpler thing is to use the "altered tile count" in all cases for the sake of consistency, that is, the German Cathedral tile is counted more than once to all effects to compute the scoring when the road loops back to the German Cathedral tile. What do you think?

I think insisting that there are 5 tiles for bonus scoring that is dissociated from the road feature seems odd.
- For Inns it makes some sense to apply the road modifier with the German Cathedrals.
- For Mage it feels odd, it gives +1 per tile in the scored feature, and there are literally only 4 tiles. The Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities that give extra points. Why would it give +1 for an extra road segment that gives extra points??
- For Wainwrights quarters it also feels weird, The Markets of Leipzig give +1 point for each road tile, and there are 4 of them.
- For the Little Building it feels odd to count it twice. But if the tile is counted twice for Mage and Markets of Leipzig, then why not for Little Buildings?

Where did the "tile counting twice" come from? I can't find it in my rules. My English German Cathedrals rules only mention counting roads seperately.

(Every time I type "there are 4 tiles" I think of Captain Jean Luc Picard's "There are four lights!")
Cheers!

After this analysis I will have to recant since there is no base to support the idea that German Cathedrals were including a tile count modification mechanism. So it is clear to me now that:
* Roads ending at a German Cathedral will score their core feature scoring based on road segments.
* The core feature scoring for these roads will be affected by modifiers such as inns and the German Cathedral itself.
* The Mage and Markets of Leipzig will take into account the original tile count from the road. 

So you did good in insisting about your views of the German Cathedral rules. If the excerpts I included above differ from your printed rules, please let me know. I only have the PDF versions on CarcF to hand at this moment and did all the analysis based on them.

Thanks for helping WICA too.

+1 merit from me.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 21, 2019, 02:56:27 AM
1. The original German rules by HiG: They only talk about "road segments" (they use the word "Straßenabschnitt") and there is no mention of "tiles" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops.

2. The original English rules by HiG: On the other hand, they use "road tile" (even "tile") preferable over "road segment" when explaining the scoring of roads and archbishops. Of the 6 occurrences of "road segment" in the German rules, only 1 uses "road segment" explicitly in English. On the other hand, there are 4 mentions of "tile" instead.

Here you are an excerpt of the original rules with some comments. I underlined the expected occurrences of "road segment", that do not match the German Rules most of the time:
So as you can see, the German rules are consistent but the wording of the English ones is somewhat misleading.

The German rules indeed use consequently "Straßenabschnitt" while the English rules vary between roads, road tiles and road segments. But all the clarifications given by HiG afterwards made it clear that in all those cases road segments were meant.

After this analysis I will have to recant since there is no base to support the idea that German Cathedrals were including a tile count modification mechanism. So it is clear to me now that:
* Roads ending at a German Cathedral will score their core feature scoring based on road segments.
* The core feature scoring for these roads will be affected by modifiers such as inns and the German Cathedral itself.
* The Mage and Markets of Leipzig will take into account the original tile count from the road. 

So you did good in insisting about your views of the German Cathedral rules. If the excerpts I included above differ from your printed rules, please let me know. I only have the PDF versions on CarcF to hand at this moment and did all the analysis based on them.

Thanks for helping WICA too.

+1 merit from me.

Cheers!

I think this is indeed the correct interpretation of the rules.
Road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.

Really nice analysis made by both of you!  :D
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 21, 2019, 09:42:26 AM
Hi there!

I have updated WICA to keep up with all this analysis:

* German Cathedrals
* Markets of Leipzig
* Scoring During the Game for C1, C2 and WE.
* Scoring After the Game for C1, C2 and WE.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 21, 2019, 05:21:11 PM
Hi all,

I was just cross-checking the wording using C1 I&C as a well established reference (the scoring of roads with Inns) and I found this:

===
German rules (HiG)

Liegen eine oder mehrere Wirtshaus karten in einer fertigen Straße, so erhält der Wege lagerer 2 Punkte pro Straßenabschnitt (Anzahl der Karten).

English rules (RGG)

If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player.

English rules (ZMG)

If there is at least one inn on a completed road, a thief that is present on that road will score 2 points (instead of 1) per road section (number of tiles).
===

Therefore, for I&C road segments = road tiles (they are equivalent) but for German Cathedrals road segments >= road tiles (there are more road segments than road tiles) when a road starts and ends at a German Cathedral tile.

What do you make of all of this?

I'm starting to think that HiG road tile and road segment are equivalent all the time but the used the same term to refer to the road stretches on a German Cathedral. Otherwise a tile like this one from I&C would contain two road segments and they would have to be counted twice in case both road segments were connected to a road loop connected to a German Cathedral:

(http://wikicarpedia.com/images/c/cc/Inns_C1_16.jpg)

What do you think?

It is like when HiG writes "follower" in the rules and sometimes they mean "a follower of any type" and others "a normal follower" and you have to guess the context/intention. Awesome!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 22, 2019, 03:03:18 AM
So... Three questions in this line of thought about the picture below:

1) Easy question: How many road tiles are there in this road to compute anybtile-based bonus (Mage or Wainwright quarter bonus)?
2) Difficult question: How many road segments are there in this road to compute the core feature scoring?
3) Intriguing question: Which tiles are we actually counting more than once because of the road segment issue? Just the German Cathedral tile?

I was assuming a road segment is a road stretch on a tile (it works perfectly with German Cathedral tiles.) But in this case, what happens with the tunnel tiles and the RRRR tile (RrRr if we use the notation discussed in another topic) mentioned in my previous post? Are they just treated as simple tiles no matter the road configuration and only the German Cathedral tile has a special treatment?

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 22, 2019, 03:16:19 AM
edit> this is in reply to the double road tile post, not yet to the post under it with another insane quiz ;)

Hi Meepledrone, here's what I think based on my current understanding/interpretation of the rules.

Base game copyright 2000 Dutch rules (literal translation):
For a finished road the player (...) gets as many points as the road (expressed in land tiles) is long.

This rule is unchanged in later prints, Wheel of Fortune etc.

So "road score" (in points) is taken from "road length" (in number of land tiles)

This includes the 4 tiles example with 3 corners and 1 T-section.
This example has 5 road segments, but 2 of them are on the T-section tile. The 2 road sections on the T-section count as 1 because they are on the same tile, and tiles are counted.
(This is sometimes difficult for beginning players)
The same is true for cities; 2 points per tile that the city consists of. That includes the example of a 6 segment city on 5 tiles worth 10 points.

This game design choice was probably done to encourage the building of larger cities and longer roads over quick scoring smaller ones. (Reminding of the 2 segment city only scoring 2 points in old rules.)

It's a bit unfortunate that German Cathedrals breaks this very basic Carcassonne rule.

Inns and Cathedrals Dutch rules
The thief gets 2 points per land tile that the road consists of.

there was no reason to differentiate between Road Segment (Straßenabschnitt) and number of tiles (Anzahl der Karten).
In fact, it would make things confusing; for counting road score, road tiles were counted.

German Cathedrals copyright 2016 English rules:
1. When you complete a road leading directly to a cathedral your highwayman gives you 2 points for each tile the road consists of.
2. For a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score both roads* seperately.
3. For each closed road with an inn that leads to a cathedral**, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile

The Land tile with a Cathedral, and only this tile, breaks a very basic rule of the game (for no good reason imho)

So "road score" (in points) is taken from "number of seperate roads on the Cathedral tile(s) connected to the finished road" (in road segments) and "road length" (in number of land tiles) for the rest of the road.

*) "both roads" to me implies that they mean both road segments on the Cathedral tile. There are a max of 3 or 4 road segments on a Cathedral tile. By referring to the Cathedral tile explicitly, to me it seems to imply that they don't mean the entire road (starting and ending on a cathedral) is counted as road segments, but only the parts on the Cathedral tile.

With the 2 corners tile you posted, or a roundabout tile, it's possible to make a closed road that starts and ends at a cathedral, which also contains more than 1 road segments on 1 tile elsewhere. I think the special rule only counts for the German Cathedral tile, not the entire road that's connected to it. (despite the rules not being clear on this.)

For a closed loop of 1 German Cathedral and 3 corners the scoring is:
2 road segments worth 2 points each and 3 road tiles worth 2 points each = 10 points.

The scored road feature consists of:
5 road segments, 4 tiles, 3 normal road tiles, 1 German Cathedral tile.
"road length" = 5
Score = 10 points.

With a normal T-section instead of a German Catherdal it would have been:
5 road segments, 4 tiles, 4 road tiles.
"road length" = 4
Score = 4 points.

----------

**) The (English) rules are a bit sloppy in their wording;
"Road with an inn that leads to a cathedral" is missing the word "directly", which is included in "When you complete a road leading directly to a cathedral". By leaving out "directly" it could mean "indirectly" i.e. via a crossroad village or T-section just like in how followers are placed in Leipzig.

Of course this isn't what they intended, but I think it illustrates that it is important to search for what is intended behind the literal rules.

Hence why I think the Cathedral road segments give 3 points when an Inn is involved, instead of 1 of the road segments only giving 2 points because it isn't a road tile, if you take the rules literally. (they don't use road segments consequently since for the previous 15 years road tile counting was the only thing that mattered)
And why I think the special rule only counts for the Catherdral tile, and not the entire road attached to it, even though the rules leave that possibility open.

Cheers


Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 22, 2019, 03:34:18 AM
Let me check my roads...

The road consists of:
15 road segments
10 tiles

And based on my current interpretation of the rules:
9 normal road tiles and 1 German Cathedral tile where the road counts twice
Road Length = 11
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Windekind on August 22, 2019, 05:26:41 AM
 15 road segments
10 tiles
counting more than once:
- German Cathedral
- Tunnels (Begin & exit) : rules:Only the visible segments of a completed road are scored.
- And why not the RrRr tiles. There are 2 different roads on it that don't came together. It's not a T-section
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 22, 2019, 06:53:37 AM
For the sake of the core feature scoring of the road, should we consider the only 2 road segments on the GC tile and the other 9 tiles? Or should we consider the 15 road segments?  >:D
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Windekind on August 22, 2019, 11:14:18 AM
Why not the 15 road segment? It's simplyphite the game.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 22, 2019, 12:05:06 PM
Hi all,

I was just cross-checking the wording using C1 I&C as a well established reference (the scoring of roads with Inns) and I found this:

===
German rules (HiG)

Liegen eine oder mehrere Wirtshaus karten in einer fertigen Straße, so erhält der Wege lagerer 2 Punkte pro Straßenabschnitt (Anzahl der Karten).

English rules (RGG)

If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player.

English rules (ZMG)

If there is at least one inn on a completed road, a thief that is present on that road will score 2 points (instead of 1) per road section (number of tiles).
===

Therefore, for I&C road segments = road tiles (they are equivalent) but for German Cathedrals road segments >= road tiles (there are more road segments than road tiles) when a road starts and ends at a German Cathedral tile.

What do you make of all of this?

I'm starting to think that HiG road tile and road segment are equivalent all the time but the used the same term to refer to the road stretches on a German Cathedral. Otherwise a tile like this one from I&C would contain two road segments and they would have to be counted twice in case both road segments were connected to a road loop connected to a German Cathedral:

At the time when the base game and the first expansion were released, there was no need to distinguish between roads, road tiles and road segments. There was only one rule at the time, one point per tile, two points with an inn. There was no road segment counting yet.
Only when the German Cathedrals were released, road segment differentiation was introduced for the German Cathedral tile only.

Despite your well appreciated effort to look up the exact phrasing, for me it is clear that the wording used before the release of the German Cathedrales is irrelevant.

I think we should stick to the updated scoring rules which are now in WICA  :D


That Tunnel example is really something though. The Tunnel is one of the very few expansions I don't own yet...
In WICA, footnote 9 states: It would seem logical that if the “entrance” and “exit” of a tunnel are on the same tile, they should only count as a single point for scoring, just as two segments of a city on a single tile only count as 1 tile for scoring purposes.
Is that not part of the official rules?
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 22, 2019, 12:12:50 PM
Hi  Vital Pluymers

You said Road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.

I think watchtower is not .(showing at least one road)

Hi yezhenhan, why do you think that?
The Watchtowers are scoring one point per tile showing at least one road, so tile counting imho...
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 22, 2019, 02:34:35 PM
Why not the 15 road segment? It's simplyphite the game.

Hi Windekind,

This would be awesome, but I think would be more complicated if you have two completely different methods to score roads:
1) Roads without German Cathedrals scored by road tiles.
2) Roads with German Cathedrals scored by road segments that may affect the way roads are tallied altogether as you saw in my example above.

This said, I think road scoring should provide an integrated way to handle the traditional roads and the particular case introduced by German Cathedrals without a much fuzz. Bearing this in mind, roads should be scored as usual (per tiles) and make only an exception with German Cathedral tiles and their road segments when more than one is connected to the same road. This won't be an everyday case, I think, but we have to be prepared for it.

IMHO the case above should consider 9 tiles + 2 road segments for the German Cathedral when calculating the core feature scoring. Any other possible tile-based bonuses on top, the Mage and the Markets of Leipzig, would consider 10 tiles though.

My interpretation of the scoring of roads with German Cathedrals is the following:
* Road core feature scoring: based in tiles count (for non-German Cathedral tiles) + road segments (for German Cathedral tiles)
* Based tile-based bonuses (Mage and Markets of Leipzig for roads): use regular tile count

Although this could be easily solved assuming the German Cathedral tile is counted as many times as connected road segments to the same road network, I'm avoiding this approach in order to avoid my initial idea of "altered tile count" that would affect the tally of tile-based bonuses.

If anyone disagrees, please step forward with their thoughts and suggestions. I find this discussion very interesting and productive. Thanks again everyone.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 22, 2019, 03:10:45 PM
Hi all,

I was just cross-checking the wording using C1 I&C as a well established reference (the scoring of roads with Inns) and I found this:

===
German rules (HiG)

Liegen eine oder mehrere Wirtshaus karten in einer fertigen Straße, so erhält der Wege lagerer 2 Punkte pro Straßenabschnitt (Anzahl der Karten).

English rules (RGG)

If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player.

English rules (ZMG)

If there is at least one inn on a completed road, a thief that is present on that road will score 2 points (instead of 1) per road section (number of tiles).
===

Therefore, for I&C road segments = road tiles (they are equivalent) but for German Cathedrals road segments >= road tiles (there are more road segments than road tiles) when a road starts and ends at a German Cathedral tile.

What do you make of all of this?

I'm starting to think that HiG road tile and road segment are equivalent all the time but the used the same term to refer to the road stretches on a German Cathedral. Otherwise a tile like this one from I&C would contain two road segments and they would have to be counted twice in case both road segments were connected to a road loop connected to a German Cathedral:

At the time when the base game and the first expansion were released, there was no need to distinguish between roads, road tiles and road segments. There was only one rule at the time, one point per tile, two points with an inn. There was no road segment counting yet.
Only when the German Cathedrals were released, road segment differentiation was introduced for the German Cathedral tile only.

Hi Vital Pluymers!

I agree 100%. I just wanted to put on the table how the wording in the rules is twisted and bent and simple things become ambiguous once the words are stretched to cover new concepts. This is not the first time that this happens.

Despite your well appreciated effort to look up the exact phrasing, for me it is clear that the wording used before the release of the German Cathedrales is irrelevant.

I never lose faith. It is a very frustrating process when you are trying to find a solid foundation to consistently build everything else on top.

I think we should stick to the updated scoring rules which are now in WICA  :D

I am doing the following:
* Road core feature scoring: based on tile count (for non-German Cathedral tiles) + road segments (for German Cathedral tiles)
* Based tile-based bonuses (Mage and Markets of Leipzig for roads): use regular tile count

Although this could be easily solved assuming the German Cathedral tile is counted twice, I'm avoiding that in order to avoid my initial idea of "altered tile count" that would affect the tally of tile-based bonuses.

If anyone disagrees, please step forward with their thoughts and suggestions. I find this discussion very interesting and productive. Thanks again everyone.

That Tunnel example is really something though. The Tunnel is one of the very few expansions I don't own yet...
In WICA, footnote 9 states: It would seem logical that if the “entrance” and “exit” of a tunnel are on the same tile, they should only count as a single point for scoring, just as two segments of a city on a single tile only count as 1 tile for scoring purposes.
Is that not part of the official rules?

The WICA page for The Tunnels, directly based on the CAR page, reflects the reviewed version of the original rules from 2009. The example on the page was the one described in text only in the rules. Footnote #9 clarification comes from the CAR and it is clarification by the CAR editor based on the assumption that road with tunnels are scored based on tile count. He uses the analogy with city tiles as a foundation for his inference. (Again the search for a solid foundation to build inferences on top.) 

In my example with tunnels above, you can see instances of tunnel entries marked with the same color on the same tile and on different ones to test this very same issue.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 22, 2019, 03:12:08 PM
Why not the 15 road segment? It's simplyphite the game.

IMHO the case above should consider 9 tiles + 2 road segments for the German Cathedral when calculating the core feature scoring. Any other possible tile-based bonuses on top, the Mage and the Markets of Leipzig, would consider 10 tiles though.


I totally agree. Otherwise, it will be a mess  :)
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 22, 2019, 03:49:07 PM
Hi Vital Pluymers,

Sorry for misunderstand your words because my poor english reading.I have removed my reply 40.

Today I read the reply from you and Meepledrone,I know both you change your mind . I do not know the reason.
I agree with the opinion from reply 31,33,35.
I disagree with the opinion from reply 37,38.
Offical rule is important,but if it is not clearly,please do not pay too much attention to the words.

If the rule is not clear,what we can do?
1, pay too much attention to the words.
2,choose the better rule for play happy.   
I choose 2,because when we focus the words ,this expansion rule designer maybe think we misunderstand his opinion.

why we play the game?
1,study rule.
2,play fun.
I choose 2.

Which rule is better?
Three standard:easy,reasonable,fun.
1,easy
A,easy for remember the rule,for the sake of consistency,if it is not consistent,it is hard to remember.
B,easy for count,because it is not a count game.

2,reasonable
We should balance the score power from different role and expansion. Not too strong,not too weak.

3,fun,count wrong is not interesting. The new player will confused.

The first question.
1,count road separately on all road tile to Cathedrals?
or 2,only on Cathedrals tile?
I choose 2,because it is easy for count and not too much powerful with other expansion(such as tunnel ,labyrinths)
If you choose 1,the new player will do not want play the game with you because you know more rule than him.Most people will count wrong and debate.
We play game for fun not for count.

The second question.
1,Mage and leipzig count tile on Cathedrals tile?
Or 2,count road separately on Cathedrals tile?
I choose 2,because it is easy for remember and count.

If you tell the new player ,road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.The new player need remember too much rule information.He will ask you what is core scoring?what is bonus score?you must explain more and more,he need you find the proof in the offical rule book,you can not find it ,he may disagree with you.he will do not want play the game with you and  ask you more question.

Cathedrals road count is special rule,however if the special rule apply some expansions but not some other expansions,the rule is too much special and hard remember.you have no proof to support this new special rule by you.

when you count the road number first time ,it is unchange and you remenber the number,you do not need to count again for Mage and leipzig. Multiplication is easy for count the score.(6*2+6+6=6*4)


Mage and witch should consistent.when you count road separately on Cathedrals tile for witch modify ,why mage not?
why witch is different from mage?It is not reasonable.


watchtower is special,the rule is at least one road ,so though it has two roads on Cathedrals tile,it is 1 point.

It is up to you choose the better rule,if the first question you choose 1,second question you choose 1,it is terrible.the game become a count game.I believe more new player want play with me.

Time is very important thing in our life,spend time for game fun,do not waste too much time for count and study special rule.

Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 22, 2019, 05:19:04 PM
At the time when the base game and the first expansion were released, there was no need to distinguish between roads, road tiles and road segments. There was only one rule at the time, one point per tile, two points with an inn. There was no road segment counting yet.
Only when the German Cathedrals were released, road segment differentiation was introduced for the German Cathedral tile only.

Despite your well appreciated effort to look up the exact phrasing, for me it is clear that the wording used before the release of the German Cathedrales is irrelevant.

I agree with this. From 2000 to 2016 the roads in Carcassonne were counted in tiles (worth 1 or 2 points), because of the rule in the base game that a road segment on a tile that was already counted (because of another road segments on that tile) isn't counted. There were no exceptions, so no reason to differentiate between roads, road segments, road tiles etc.

In 2016 the German Cathedrals introduced tiles where the road count could be higher than 1 on 1 tile. 2 with a loop. Even 3 or 4 are possible.

Even though the wording of the rules of German Cathedrals doesn't make it clear if only the Cathedral tile is affected, or the entire road connected to the cathedral, I think the first option is much preferably (and probably intended).
Simply because it's much easier. The road can be counted with the normal rules, and only the Cathedral tile is affected by the road-segments-instead-of-road-tiles counting.
(Otherwise, after the tunnels quiz, next up will be two labyrinth tiles and a couple of roundabouts connecting German Cathedrals to German Castles and whatnot..)

why we play the game?
1,study rule.
2,play fun.
I choose 2.
I think most people, me included, play for fun. But studying the rules can also be fun.

1,count road separately only on Cathedrals tile?
or 2,all road tile to Cathedrals?
I choose 1,because it is easy for count and not too much powerful with other expansion(such as tunnel ,labyrinths)
If you choose 2,the new player will do not want play the game with you because you know more rule than him.most people will count wrong and debate.
We play game for fun not for count.
I agree with this. It is easier counting. And easier to explain. And better for balance (best not let the new and small expansion influence too much other tiles) (the score bonus is meant for the Cathedral anyway I think, not to boost tunnels, double corners and T-sections.)

1,Mage and leipzig count tile on Cathedrals tile?
Or2,count road separately on Cathedrals tile?
I choose 2,because it is easy for remember and count.
If you tell the new player ,Road segments counting for any core scoring when a German Cathedral tile is part of the road, but tile counting for bonus scoring features as the Mage, the Markets of Leipzig, and the Watchtowers.The new player need remember too much rule information.He will ask you what is core scoring?what is bonus score?you must explain more and more,he need you find the proof in the offical rule book,you can not find it ,he may disagree with you.he will do not want play the game with you and always ask you more question.
when you count the road number first time ,it is unchange,you do not need to count again for Mage and leipzig.
I don't agree. The Mage has very simple rules. +1 point per tile in the scored feature. The Markets of Leipzig is equally simple.
I think it will actually be more difficult to explain that there are 5 tiles because there are two roads connected on the Cathedral tile, while there are actually and literally only 4 tiles. If I was scoring for myself and a new player would ask "why do you get 5 points for 5 tiles when there are 4 tiles" I would not have a good answer.
I think counting tiles for Mage and Markets of Leipzig is actually the easier way.

Mage and witch should consistent.when you count road separately on Cathedrals tile for witch modify ,why mage not? why witch is different from mage?It is not reasonable.
Because they have very different rules. One is a multiplier (x 0.5) that affeqcts the score, before bonus points. And the other simply adds points (where the timing doesn't matter since the Witch can't be involved) based on the number of tiles.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 22, 2019, 07:14:03 PM
Hi benbever,

You said :
I don't agree. The Mage has very simple rules. +1 point per tile in the scored feature. The Markets of Leipzig is equally simple.
I think it will actually be more difficult to explain that there are 5 tiles because there are two roads connected on the Cathedral tile, while there are actually and literally only 4 tiles. If I was scoring for myself and a new player would ask "why do you get 5 points for 5 tiles when there are 4 tiles" I would not have a good answer.



Let me explain to you.

1,pay attention to the words(I dont like this way to support my opinion,but maybe only this way can convince geek player)
Inn and cathedrals     2 point per tile=+1point per tile   when:score completed roads
Mage and witch        +1 point per tile                              when:scoring a feature
Market of Leipzig      +1 point per tile                             when:scoring during the game
Cathedrals in Germany                                                   when: special rule when scoring a road
Rule book write the time clearly,note the time is same.The rule is not say when scoring a road but before bonus.
Road score,mage modify, leipzig score,are happen at same time in one feature.
Time order is different with score order.Little building after mage is score order not time order.

2,for play fun with others
A new player ask you  "why do you get 5 points for 5 tiles when there are 4 tiles"
I think If you can explain it When you play with Inn.you also can explain it when you play with mage.
(I will explain to him because you play with Germany cathedrals, 4 tile= 5 tile for other expansion)
A new player ask you “why do you get 5 points for 4 tile with inn and witch,but 4 points with mage and leipzig?
Would you tell me how to explain? Can you explain it in one sentence.
In fact you spent many words to convince Meepledrone and Vital Pluymers.

you said :
I think counting tiles for Mage and Markets of Leipzig is actually the easier way.

Let me explain to you.
It is not the easier way ,because you need count again.Count once for me is easier than count twice for you.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 23, 2019, 12:11:22 AM
Can you explain it in one sentence.
Cathedral exception count road, Mage count tile
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 23, 2019, 12:29:08 AM
Can you explain it in one sentence.
Cathedral exception count road, Mage count tile

Cathedral exception: count road segments on Cathedral tile alone. All other road tiles are counted the same.

Mage and Markets of Leipzig count road tiles only.

We are avoiding two things here:
1. Extending the counting of road segments to other tiles when German Cathedrals are involved.
2. Converting the road segment count on German Cathedral tiles into a road tile count alteration so it affects bonus such as Mage or Markets of Leipzig

So German Cathedrals alone work in a different way when computing the road core feature scoring (German Cathedral road segments on the + Inns, when present). All other bonuses and road-related expansions still would work the same (those based on regular tile counting)
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Vital Pluymers on August 23, 2019, 12:50:31 AM
Hi yezhenhan,
Playing a game should bring a lot of fun. But for many players, including me, playing according to the correct rules brings a lot of fun.
In fact, I can get really frustrated when I am learning or playing a new game for which the rules are unclearly written.
Therefore I think it is important that on this forum we try to find out how the original rules were intended so that we can play the game correctly.

The scoring of the Mage is very clear, one point per tile. Counting twice four or five tiles should not be such a big problem.
Furthermore, when the Mage is placed in a city with pennants, you also have to count twice or count the pennants separately.
Rules of the Waintwrights quarter are clear now too (thanks to the analysis of benbever).

German Cathedral exception only applies to the core scoring of the road, without or with an inn.
Any new player will understand that very easily.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 12:58:51 AM
Hi benbever,

If your answer is Cathedral exception count road, Mage count tile
He will continue to ask you more questions:inn is also count tile,what different between inn and mage?
Please answer the second question by your second sentence.

Every expansion has its key special rule. The key special rule apply all other expansions.
what is key special?
Key special rule with Inn is finish+1, unfinished 0.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Key special rule with Leipzig is abandon road point for go to the market.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Key special rule with mage is move a role for add point,move another role for minus point.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Key special rule with Cathedrals  is add tile number for score,no other expansion has the special rule.so the key specal rule apply all other expansions.If you think the key special rule apply some expansion,not apply others ,you should provide proof.If the rule designer know your opinion ,maybe he will also ask you for the reason.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 23, 2019, 01:33:43 AM
Hi yezhenhan,

For the time being there is no proof beyond the original rules that covers the impact on the base game, I&C and P&D. According to this limited scope of the rules, this collaborative analysis is trying to keep the effect of German Cathedrals contained for the interactions defined and, at the same time, avoid the indefinition of the rules have unexpected consequences when interacting with other expansions.

If HiG decides to provide any official clarifications on these interactions would be an extension of the current rules, if any. If we agree to adopt as general the tile count increment (as your suggest) or the road  segment count (as a general rule for tunnels or for certain road tiles as a general extension of the GC with no other support) when German Cathedrals are involved, it is more likely these rules are declared void by HiG for overreaching their original intent. IMHO it is better in this case to fall short and stay close to what we currently know.

Cheers!

PS: I play for fun too and I also love to understand the rules clearly. The latter is the reason I got involved in WICA  :))
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 02:12:07 AM
Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
Avoid the indefinition of the rules have unexpected consequences when interacting with other expansions.

Now I know the reason you choose this rule clarification.

I have played more than 100 fan-made expansions ,my family rule is good with them.
It is very hard work to know what is core feature score?what is bonus?
Even if you can distinguish them, I can not remember it because too much expansions.

So I insist on my family rule until you have clear standard how to distinguish core feature score and bonus.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 04:21:39 PM
Hi benbever,

I know its difficult to answer the second question from new player.

I read  reply 36 by you:
For Mage it feels odd, it gives +1 per tile in the scored feature, and there are literally only 4 tiles. The Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities that give extra points. Why would it give +1 for an extra road segment that gives extra points??
For the Little Building it feels odd to count it twice. But if the tile is counted twice for Mage and Markets of Leipzig, then why not for Little Buildings?

Let me explain to you.
1,Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities,Mage also doesn't give +1 for wells in roads.So it is not odd.The rule designer write the tile +1 means not including shield and well,he didn't know the new special mechanics like Cathedrals in Germany.
2,GC  change count  tile  to count road on GC tile,the little building is not changed.Just like you have one big room,you change it two small rooms.But the dog in the room is only one.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: yezhenhan on August 23, 2019, 04:35:34 PM
Hi Vital Pluymers,

You said
The scoring of the Mage is very clear, one point per tile.

Let me explain to you .
CAR7.4 page17
Just like the basis rule write the owner of the farm only scores points at
the end of the game. As such, farmers remain on the farm for the duration of the
game and are never returned to their owner.
Footnote 24:Okay, “never” is a long time. In reality, some special mechanics in some expansions (Festival tiles, the Dragon, etc.) do allow return of farmers to their owners.
Note the key word special mechanics.Cathedrals in Germany has special mechanics.

Both the basis rule and Mage rule are clear,both can be changed by special mechanics.
GC exception is turn count tile to count road only on GC tile.when you play with inn,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile.So 2 points each tile -----2 points each road on GC tile.
when you play with Mage and leipzig,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile,so +1 point each tile -----+1 point each road on GC tile,it is same special mechanic.


You said:
German Cathedral exception only applies to the core scoring of the road, without or with an inn.

You only tell me the conclusion ,not the reason.
If you play some fan-made expansions such as The Lake and CHARIOT RACING. You will find it is hard to know what is belong to core  score.would you tell me what is core  score?

If you only play the offical expansion,it is ok, because only inn involved,so you just remember GC exception only apply with inn,not others.
But if you play all expansion,you need much new rule to apply many expansions and it is hard to remember for  player.You need remember GC exception apply a,b,c,d,e,........not apply f,g,h,i,j,k.



Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: benbever on August 24, 2019, 06:50:24 AM
Hi Yezhenhan

He will continue to ask you more questions:inn is also count tile,what different between inn and mage?
Please answer the second question by your second sentence.
Inn is road (tile) now worth 2 points (3 with Inn and Cathedral), Mage is +1 extra point per tile in scored feature.

Every expansion has its key special rule. The key special rule apply all other expansions.
Not all expansions have special rules, and some have more than one.

Key special rule with Inn is finish+1, unfinished 0.Add point every tile is not key special,because many expansions add points.
Inns make a road tile worth 2 points. Or 0 points at the end of the game. finish+1 is not in the rules.

Cathedrals  is add tile number for score,no other expansion has the special rule.so the key specal rule apply all other expansions.
"add tile number for score" is not in the rules.
If you want to assign a "key special rule" for this expansion, I'd say it's the Archbisschop, who counts roads connected to the cathedral, not neighbouring tiles like a cloister.
It also has a rule that gives 2 points per road tile when you score a road connected to it. And an extra rule with 3 points when an Inn is involved. And a special rule that counts roads segments instead of road tiles.

Let me explain to you.
1,Mage doesn't give +1 for shields in cities,Mage also doesn't give +1 for wells in roads.So it is not odd.The rule designer write the tile +1 means not including shield and well,he didn't know the new special mechanics like Cathedrals in Germany.
I agree with this. Shields and wells (a fan expansion) give extra points, they're comparable to road segments on German Cathedral that can also give extra points to roads. All of these are not extra tiles.

2,GC  change count  tile  to count road on GC tile,the little building is not changed.Just like you have one big room,you change it two small rooms.But the dog in the room is only one.
GC indeed changes count road tile to count road on GC tile. I agree on the Little house only counting once. It counts once because there's only one tile. Only the roads are counted seperately.

GC exception is turn count tile to count road only on GC tile.when you play with inn,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile.So 2 points each tile -----2 points each road on GC tile.
when you play with Mage and leipzig,other tile is also count tile ,but count road on GC tile,so +1 point each tile -----+1 point each road on GC tile,it is same special mechanic.
Because Inn, and German Cathedrals, are road point modifiers. You score a road on a tile only once (never more than once on the same tile) except on German Cathedral. The roads are then worth 2 or 3 points.
Normallya road is the same as a road tile, but not on German Cathedral. The German Cathedral tile is not 2 or more road tiles.
Mage looks at number of tiles in the scored feature. Not road tiles. Not road segments. Not road score.
Markets of Leipzig looks at the number of road tiles. German Cathedrals is 1 tile with more than 1 road.

Markets of Leipzig works very much like Inns, but community decided to treat it like bonus score that gives +1 points per road tile (earlier in this topic)., instead of road feature score multiplier. This was because of slightly different rules (+1/road tile instead of road tile worth 2 points) and to make it consistent with the other quarters of Leipzig.

The official rules are unclear if Markets of Leipzig is feature score or bonus score (i.e. after Witch), and they are not clear on if "road segments count seperately" applies to the whole road or just Cathedral tile, and they are not clear on if "Inn is 3 points per road tile" applies to the Cathedral's second road segment, and they use road, road segment, and road tile interchangeably.

If you want to play with your choice of interpretation of these rules, then that's fine, and not even against the official rules. Playing with a system of family rules, or house rules is also fine.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 24, 2019, 02:01:52 PM
Hi all,

It took me some time but finally I updated the following WICA pages.

* Cathedrals in Germany: http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany_(1st_edition) (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Cathedrals_in_Germany_(1st_edition))
* Labyrinths:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Labyrinths (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Labyrinths)

The revision is related to road scoring as you may imagine:
* Reviewed German Cathedrals to contain the use of "road segments" only for German Cathedral tiles. So the wording is halfway the German one and original English one. Added also an scoring example combining German Cathedrals and Mage.
* Updated the table on road scoring in The Labyrinths.

Additionally the following dynamic pages were updated:

* Scoring During the Game for C1/C2/WE
* Scoring After the Game for C1/C2/WE

These pages now include information about:
- A revision of road and German Cathedral evaluation during and after the game with the inclusion of tunnels.
- The scoring evaluation order indicating (in yellow) what features conform the core feature scoring.
- Annotations about what features can trigger a castle scoring (marked with a small castle token)
- Annotations about what features score points that robbers can steal from (marked with a small robber figure). 

Check, for example, the C2 versions here:
* Scoring During the Game:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game)
* Scoring After the Game:
http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game (http://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_After_the_Game)

Hi Meepledrone,

You said:
Avoid the indefinition of the rules have unexpected consequences when interacting with other expansions.

Now I know the reason you choose this rule clarification.

I have played more than 100 fan-made expansions ,my family rule is good with them.
It is very hard work to know what is core feature score?what is bonus?
Even if you can distinguish them, I can not remember it because too much expansions.

So I insist on my family rule until you have clear standard how to distinguish core feature score and bonus.


Hope this solves some of your questions, yezhenhan.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 28, 2019, 12:14:46 PM
Hi all,

Here's a little quiz for a relaxing moment in the busy summer.

During a game of mega Carcassonne combining expansions from the new edition plus a little something of the classic one, the red player has just finished a road and it's time to score. He really needs your help because the road has a bit of everything including the witch...

How many points should Red score?

(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4356.0;attach=11886;image)

Let's recap what we discussed about the result to this quiz:

1. The Watchtower scores 2 points
2. The Road scores 8 + 10 = 18 points
    - Core Feature scoring + Witch: RoundUp ( 15 / 2 ) = 8 points
       - Core Feature Scoring: ( 4 tiles + 1 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 1 point/tile due to road + 1 point/tile due to German Cathedral + 1 point/tile due to Inn ) = 5 * 3 points = 15 points
    - Other Bonuses: 10 points
       - Markets of Leipzig Wainwrights Quarter: 5 tiles x 1 point/tile = 5 points
       - Little Buildings: 2 Little Buildings * 1 point/building = 2 points
       - German Castle: 1 German Castle * 3 points/castle = 3 points

So Red scores 2 + 18 points = 20 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 28, 2019, 12:25:06 PM
I have no problem with Markets of Leipzig counting as bonus score whatsoever. The only negative I see is in how the scoring mechanism for roads is so very similar to Inns and German Cathedrals. But the rules in the rulebooklets are already different; Wainwright Quarter gives +1 bonus point per road tile, Inns give 2 points per road tile, German Cathedrals give 2 points per road tile, and Inn+German Cathedral gives 3 points per road tile. The "+1" is a different mechanic than "gives 2 points".

The points from the other quarters of Leipzig are easily understood as bonus points. And by using these as an example, and the Meeple in Leipzig, or Leipzig itself, doing the scoring for the player, it's pretty easy to explain.
tbh I would be equally happy if all these scores were core feature scores (ie before the witch) but the most important thing is a community consensus (by lack of an official ruling).

As for the 2nd "puzzle":
The road is worth 0 at games end, but it is scored. Mage adds +1/tile so +5 points. Little houses are worth their normal value at the final counting so 2 x +1. Total 7 points.

So here's another one:
(https://benbever.home.xs4all.nl/Carcassonne/example01.png)

from the rules:

Special rule when scoring a road, unlike the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately - i.e. that tile counts twice.

When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.

Let's recap what we discussed about the result to this quiz by benbever:

1. The Road scores 15 + 4 = 19 points
    - Core Feature Scoring: ( 3 tiles + 2 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 1 point/tile due to road + 1 point/tile due to German Cathedral + 1 point/tile due to Inns ) = 5 * 3 points = 15 points
    - Other Bonuses: 4 points
       - Markets of Leipzig Wainwrights Quarter: 4 tiles x 1 point/tile = 4 points
 
So the player scores 19 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 28, 2019, 12:43:07 PM
How about this one:
(https://benbever.home.xs4all.nl/Carcassonne/example02.png)

Let's recap what we discussed about the result to this quiz by benbever:

1. The Road scores 15 + 10 = 25 points
    - Core Feature Scoring: ( 3 tiles + 2 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 1 point/tile due to road + 1 point/tile due to German Cathedral + 1 point/tile due to Inns ) = 5 * 3 points = 15 points
    - Other Bonuses: 10 points
       - Mage: 4 tiles * 1 point/tile = 4 tiles
       - Markets of Leipzig Wainwrights Quarter: 4 tiles * 1 point/tile = 4 points
       - Little Buildings: 2 Little Buildings * 1 point/building = 2 points
 
So the player scores 25 points
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 28, 2019, 02:04:45 PM
Let's recap the solution to this example:

(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4356.0;attach=11906;image)

The road is not completed and it has an Inn, so the scoring after the game should be as follows:

1. The Road scores 0 + 7 = 7 points
    - Core Feature Scoring: ( 4 tiles + 1 German Cathedral road segment ) * ( 0 points/tile due to Inn ) = 5 * 0 points = 0 points
    - Other Bonuses: 7 points
       - Mage: 5 tiles * 1 point/tile = 5 tiles
       - Little Buildings: 2 Little Buildings * 1 point/building = 2 points
 
So Red will score 7 points.
Title: Re: Scoring quiz with roads
Post by: Meepledrone on August 28, 2019, 02:53:20 PM
So... Three questions in this line of thought about the picture below:

1) Easy question: How many road tiles are there in this road to compute anybtile-based bonus (Mage or Wainwright quarter bonus)?
2) Difficult question: How many road segments are there in this road to compute the core feature scoring?
3) Intriguing question: Which tiles are we actually counting more than once because of the road segment issue? Just the German Cathedral tile?

I was assuming a road segment is a road stretch on a tile (it works perfectly with German Cathedral tiles.) But in this case, what happens with the tunnel tiles and the RRRR tile (RrRr if we use the notation discussed in another topic) mentioned in my previous post? Are they just treated as simple tiles no matter the road configuration and only the German Cathedral tile has a special treatment?

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

Let's recap the solution to this quiz:

(http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4356.0;attach=11923;image)

NOTE: I updated this answer to reflect the latest rules for C1 (short for the classic edition) after the clarifications from 10/2015 and C2 (short for the new edition) after the clarifications from 1/2021.
* The C1 rules consider each tile individually no matter their shape, so two Halflings in a square count like 2 tiles.
* The C2 rules consider occupied spaces when scoring features, so two Haflings in a square count like 1 tile.

Quote
1) Easy question: How many road tiles are there in this road to compute any tile-based bonus (Mage or Wainwright quarter bonus)?

C1 Halfling rules

There are 10 tiles (each Halfling counts like 1 tile, even if they share the same square).

C2 Halfling rules

There are 9 tiles (the two Halflings in one square count like 1 tile).

Quote
2) Difficult question: How many road segments are there in this road to compute the core feature scoring?

There are 15 road segments if we count each road stretch independently no matter the same tile is counted twice.

Quote
3) Intriguing question: Which tiles are we actually counting more than once because of the road segment issue? Just the German Cathedral tile?

If we count all the road segments, the following tiles are counted multiple times:
- The German Cathedral tile (2 times)
- The RrRr tile with the two roads (2 times)
- The tile with two tunnel entrances (2 times)
- The tile with three tunnel entrances ( 3 times )

This was just an exercise to demonstrate that extending the use of road segments to a whole road network when German Cathedrals are involved can lead to unexpected side effects with tunnels and some road tiles with special layouts.

C1 Halfling rules

In order to score this road when completed we are assuming road segments are counted separately only on the German Cathedral tile, if present. This means, the road network depicted in the picture above would be scored as follows:
1. Core Feature Scoring: The presence of a German Cathedral means, the score will be calculated based on 11 tiles:
    - 9 tiles without counting the German Cathedral tile. (Tunnel tiles are counted once no matter how many tunnel entrances are connected to the road network.)
    - 2 road segments counted separately on the German Cathedral tile. (It would be equivalent to counting the Cathedral tile twice so to speak.)
2. Other bonuses: Wainwrights Quarter (Markets of Leipzig) and Mage will take into account only the tiles, no matter the presence of German Cathedrals in the road network. This means, these bonuses are calculated based on 10 tiles.

C2 Halfling rules

In order to score this road when completed we are assuming road segments are counted separately only on the German Cathedral tile, if present. This means, the road network depicted in the picture above would be scored as follows:
1. Core Feature Scoring: The presence of a German Cathedral means, the score will be calculated based on 10 tiles:
    - 8 tiles without counting the German Cathedral tile. (Tunnel tiles are counted once no matter how many tunnel entrances are connected to the road network.)
    - 2 road segments counted separately on the German Cathedral tile. (It would be equivalent to counting the Cathedral tile twice so to speak.)
2. Other bonuses: Wainwrights Quarter (Markets of Leipzig) and Mage will take into account only the tiles, no matter the presence of German Cathedrals in the road network. This means, these bonuses are calculated based on 9tiles.




EDIT: This post was updated to reflect the rules changes after the clarifications from 1/2021.